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one of us |
While I personally have never found any of my rifles to shoot better with any particular brand of brass so long as it was all prepared in the same manner, some of my buddies have. Two come to mind right off the top of my head. I have a friend who owns a 280 Ackley Improved that clearly shoots best with nickel plated Winchester brass. My gunsmith showed me targets that indicated MUCH better groups in a .243 Winchester he built when switching from Winchester brass to Lapua. R F | |||
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<green 788> |
It isn't the brass, per se, that the rifle is preferring. It is the effect that the brass has on the load recipe that you're noticing. The Remington brass has, as a rule, a thicker case wall, hence a lower case volume. This translates to higher pressure with the same powder charge. If you bump the powder charge up in the Winchester cases, you'll see that your rifle's accuracy will return. I own a Remington 788 in .243 also. My 788 likes these loads, and you may have good results with them: 43.5 grain IMR 4350, 85 grain Sierra BTHP 39.8 grain IMR 3031, 60 grain Sierra HP 42 grains Varget, 70 grain Nosler BT Anyway, I mention almost the exact scenario you describe in the thread "Who Really Knows What?" You may want to redevelop your load in the manner I describe at this forum, which can currently be found in the thread "velocity versus group size." A load developed in this manner will be largely impervious to brass case changes, and other pressure changing factors as well, such as minor powder lot variations and outside temperatures. I have found that runout can be reduced considerably by using Winchester as opposed to Remington brass in the .243. This should enhance accuracy yet again. Best of luck with your 788, they are truly awesome rifles... Dan Newberry green 788 | ||
<George Capriola> |
I've noticed differences in Remington & Winchester brass in a couple different ways. I upgraded my dies to "Competition" dies, with the micrometer seaters with the "window" you insert the bullet into. I was loading a batch of Remington .308 target loads with 168 HPBT's, and checking concentricity. All the loads were 'way off, .004" to .012"! I tried everything, turning the case 4 times during seating, sizing the case 2 or 4 times, floating the expander, basically going crazy! Then, I loaded some Winchester cases, and concentricity was all in the order of .001" to .004"! I turned the necks of some Remington cases, and the concentricity of those rounds was in the .004" area. Aha, I sez! This Remington brass lacks quality control! On another day, I took the M1A to the range after installing a muzzle brake (I'm a sissy, I guess!). I adjusted the front sight, at 25, 50, & 100 yards. I shot a 10-round group at 100 yards on a fresh target, and 6 hits were above the X-ring, and 4 were below. We're talking about 2" POI difference. I looked at the brass, and there were 6 Winchester cases and 4 Remington cases grinning back at me! I've repeated this test several times, with both my M1A and a nephew's Remington 700, and the POI has always been lower with the Remington brass, with exactly the same load as in the Winchester brass. My solution to this problem was pretty simple: I gave all my Remington brass to my nephew, and replaced it with shiney, new Winchester brass! Regards, George. | ||
<Kentucky Fisherman> |
Thanks for the replies, guys. Green: I've wondered, as you suggest, whether there's some basic difference in the brass that's causing what I've experienced. A difference in case capacity could account for it. I have a Sinclair concentricity gauge with the attachment to let me measure case wall thickness, so maybe I'll see if I can find a difference that way. I realize measuring case neck thickness won't tell me anything definitive about the case capacity, but it's a start. I've definitely been following posts about your OCW load development process and I think it has merit. I tend to load a lot of stick powders and throw them from a measure without weighing every charge. As I understand it, your OCW method allows for a little "slop" in any component while still keeping the bullets in a reasonable group. | ||
<green 788> |
Thanks for the kind words, Kentucky Fisherman... Yes, an OCW load would allow a little head and leg room for thrown charges without losing MOA performance, if that's your prefered method of loading. Another thing that can cause POI changes with different brass cases is neck tension. I think that's more than likely what was causing George's 2" POI shift mentioned above. The tighter neck holds on to the bullet a bit longer, and the bullet exits the muzzle at a higher point in the recoil arc. I like Winchester brass in the .243, and have had the best luck with it. I even prefer it to Norma, finding that in my one lot of Norma cases I got donuts inside the case necks with one or two firings of a relatively mild load. .243's are pretty hard on brass it seems... The Lapua stuff should be good, however. I do use the Lapua .308 brass, as it is not much more expensive than the Winchester. That's not the case with the .243 brass though... Y'all take care, Dan Newberry green 788 | ||
one of us |
Different lot numbers of brass (win. or rem.) can make a difference in accuracy. The wall thickness of the neck area is most important. When using standard die sets to load, a fater neck is more accurate. If you buy custom dies (bushing) and neck turn, i find that Rem. Win. brass is the same. 243winxb | |||
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one of us |
quote:Hey KY Fisherman, (I've got relatives out in Oldham County.) There are a couple of posibilities I can think of, case-weight variances and neck tension which could be creating the differences you are seeing. Checking to see if there is a significant weight difference between the two brands is easy enough to check. Just weigh a few of each and see if there is much variance. Probably so. Varying Neck Tension can be corrected by "Annealing" the necks so they are all the same. ... quote:A slight correction here. This is actually a method developed by Mr. Creighton Audette and as he should,Green 788 gives him credit for the basis of this Load Development procedure. I now understand that Green 788 distinguishes his method as "different" by using a Round Robin shooting sequence. Apparently unknown to Green 788, the Round Robin method has the potential to induce worse accuracy into the Groups. This is due to more inconsistent wind conditions at 300yds resulting from the longer period of time it takes to complete this un-necessary task. Best of luck to you as you develop your Loads. | |||
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one of us |
I have a 7mag that strongly prefers Weatherby headstamp brass. Couldn't figure out why, until I measured, and the necks have only .002 clearance, one tenth of the WW brass. Lucked myself a "tight neck" setup without trying. Even got the Wea brass on closeout! It's fun to shoot below .5" with a big game rifle, even if it is only once in a while..... Dutch. | |||
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<green 788> |
Hotcore, There is about as much similarity between my method and Audette's as there is between a flintlock and a Remington 700... I suppose you believe that Fred Flintstone invented the automobile. I don't recommend shooting at 300 yards until the final stages of load proving. The initial testing is done at 100 yards. Several folks have reported excellent results with this method, and the round robin sequence of firing prevents disadvantaging groups fired late in a string, due to a fouled or hot barrel, or shooter fatigue or changing weather conditions. Creighton Audette's loading method was never intended to find the optimal charge weight of a load recipe--only to find the "sweet spot" for a particular rifle. My OCW load development method is aimed at finding universally good performing load recipes--yes, loads that perform well in the majority of all rifles chambered for them. I know that you don't believe such recipes exist--a belief which puts you at odds with the experiences of Paul Box, senior ballistics tech at Sierra Bullets, not to mention the thousands of shooters who have enjoyed excellent results from proven factory loads such as the Federal Gold Medal match .308 ammo. (For onlookers interested in Paul Box's email to me, check the thead entitled "Universal load recipes, a Sierra tech's positon..." Link it here http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=005965 Hotcore, are you bi-polar by any chance? Just wondering... You've complimented me elsewhere at this forum for my load development method, and then you troll over here and criticize it. If you want me to dig up your words and repost them (as I did in the thread on concentricity, which seems to have left you speechless!) I can. I'm sorry my load development method differs with yours. I'm sorry that you aren't getting the attention you obviously feel you deserve. You need to realize, however, that you aren't going to elevate yourself by impugning me. Hey, I don't chase you all over this forum poking holes in your "lightly greased barrel" theory, do I? Dan Newberry green 788 [ 10-08-2002, 07:01: Message edited by: green 788 ] | ||
<Lightnin> |
Hotcore, Annealing cases won't do a damn thing for making neck tension consistent. The only way to do that is to neck turn to a consistent thickness and then when you resize do it with a bushing die that only puts a couple of thousandths squeeze on the necks. Mr. Newberry............Salute | ||
one of us |
quote:Hey Lightnin, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Best one I've seen since Green 788 thought he "improved" on Mr. Audette's method. Best of luck to you. | |||
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<green 788> |
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Lightnin. Don't pay too much mind to Hotcore, he just has Attention Deficit Disorder! He's correct about something every now and then, though. Kind of like a stopped clock, right only twice a day. I've never bothered with annealing cases. In truth, that's something that most handloaders are no longer doing. It's been my understanding that annealing is done simply to extend case life, not as an aid to uniforming neck tension. That's what Nosler #5 says anyway--but what do they know? I try to base my philosophy of reloading on science, and I'm always working to understand why things work or don't work. Some folks seem to have reloading philosophies more akin to religion, or maybe alchemy. Hey, if it works for them, I say go for it. Believe as you wish... But Hotcore is like a proselytizing Jehova's Witness with just enough Ernest T. Bass thrown in to make him interesting... And he won't stop throwing rocks through our windows until we all agree with him! Take care, gentlemen... and you too Hotcore! Dan | ||
<Kentucky Fisherman> |
Come on, guys, take your pissing match offline. There are a dozen other threads where we can read it if any of us suddenly suffer from withdrawal. And let's not have any "well, he started it" replies. Most of us are intelligent enough to spot who's baiting whom. The question is, which of you has enough control to NOT take the shot when the bullcrap starts gusting. Now, back to the topic. I just weighed three pieces each of the RP and Winchester .243 brass. What I found was that the RP brass runs 7.5 to 8 grains heavier than the Winchester. That appears fairly significant to me and would seem to corroborate the theory that the RP case has less capacity and, therefore, develops higher pressure with a given powder charge than would the Win brass. I understand that case weight may not directly correlate with case capacity. But since case weight is so much easier to determine, I'm wondering whether any of you have done extensive tests trying to determine how accurate case weight might be as an indicator of capacity. ??? I do generally prefer Win brass over RP, and I think you guys have put me on track toward an accurate Win load by bumping my charge weight up. Thanks. | ||
<green 788> |
KF, Let us know what you discover. The main problem I found with the Remington brass was bad neck wall variations, which caused high runout numbers. What bullet and powder are you planning to use, by the way? Dan | ||
<Kentucky Fisherman> |
I'm using 46.5 grains of IMR4350 pushing a 75 grain V-Max, Dan. That load has given me three or four 5-shot groups in the 5s or 6s at 100. Two weeks ago I moved the target out to 200 and had one group where four shots held at .67 with the fifth shot opening the group up to 2 inches. With deer season approaching, I had hoped to work up a load in the 90-100 grain range and use this .243 on small whitetails. But now I'm not sure I have enough time (range is 40 miles away), and I'm also hesitant to use a 75 grain V-Max on deer. Mostly I'm worried about that light bullet hitting a rib or shoulderblade and "splashing" without good penetration. Any suggestions/comments, assuming you hunt. Mike | ||
one of us |
quote:Hey KY Fisherman, I agree, it is bad when you can not disagree with a post without receiving a bunch of immature sophmoric loonacy in return. quote:I've used a bunch of different 95-100gr bullets from a few different 243Wins on Deer and they will kill them. The biggest problem is they leave a "small" Exit if they leave one at all. Then if you need to track them, it can be difficult when the understory is dense. But, most of the KY woods I hunted in my youth were fairly open beneath the hardwoods, so this may be no problem for you. I've settled on a 90gr Speer Hot-Cor in my current 243Win and it has performed as well as the heavier bullets. Though some folks swear by using the very fragile bullets designed specifically for Varmints on Deer, I agree with your concern about using a 75gr V-Max. A person might get luck and drop one and then again they might just wound one. If you really want to use the 243Win on Deer and feel like you've run out of Load Development time, then I'd suggest you just buy a couple of boxes of factory 100gr ammo, see which brand the rifle likes the best and use it this year. Then use those same cases to Develop Loads for next year's Deer Hunt. | |||
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<green 788> |
Kentucky Fisherman, Hotcore may have a point regarding the factory ammo. The new silver box Winchester Super-X power point 100 grain stuff should do the trick. I'm sure that practically any decent factory ammo would give you at least 2 MOA, which at any range the .243 would be effective at on deer, would suffice. I recently had a .243 H&R single shot which shot this stuff MOA at 100 yards, and my Remington 788 shot it MOA as well. The brass is good stuff, so for 11 bucks for twenty (at Walmart) you can't go wrong. Sorry about mine and Hotcore's pissing match messing up your thread. You're right, we shouldn't oughta done it... He and I really don't hate each other. We just do this stuff sometimes... And sometimes I fail to consider how it looks to everyone else. Good day, gentlemen. And you too, Hotcore ! Dan | ||
<Kentucky Fisherman> |
quote:Dang, I've been reloading so many years that this obvious solution didn't even occur to me, Hot Core, but it's an excellent one. With all the premium bullets used in factory rounds these days, I'm sure at least one of them will give suitable accuracy, at least for this year. Thanks! | ||
<Kentucky Fisherman> |
quote:Thanks for the Wally World tip, Green. While I don't mind buying a little factory ammo when necessary, I sure hate paying more for it than I have to. I've got a Walmart right around the corner. Maybe I'll try to get over there today and see if they have any .243. | ||
<green 788> |
KF, Let me know how that stuff shoots in your 788 if you do end up trying it... And I forgot to congratulate you on that 75 grain VMAX load. 46.5 grains of IMR 4350... I'm taking notes! That's gotta be a killer 400 yard groundhog buster, no? Dan | ||
<Kentucky Fisherman> |
quote:Can't report on the effect of the 75 grainer on groundhogs, Green, cause I've only punched paper with it so far. Velocity is only 3000-3050fps because my 788 is the carbine with an 18.5 inch barrel. But since I wanted it as a walking yote gun and I shoot a lot more critters at 40 yards than 400, I'm not too disappointed by the mediocre velocities. I may, however, be able to report on the effect of the 75 Vmax on eggs soon. There's an egg shoot about 3 hours from me in Somerset, KY, on Saturday, and I may try to make that one. It's an informal shoot organized by some guys from the Predator Masters forum (the old Shade Tree group). Factory class starts with eggs at 200, then goes to 300 for the shoot-off. I think I can hit at least a couple of eggs at 200, but doubt I'll need to worry about making the shoot-off. <g> I've barely got the drop doped at that range anyway. Mike PS. I believe 46.5gr of IMR 4350 in a .243 case is half a grain or a grain over the max listed in some manuals with the 75gr Vmax. Obviously I don't need to caution you, but some newbie (like myself) will get this thread sometime in the future when he puts ".243" in the search window. So for the newbie: Start around 40gr of 4350 and work your way up, just like I did, checking for signs of pressure in YOUR gun. | ||
<Lightnin> |
Hotcore, I am curious what you found so funny with my post? If you think I posted that information to entertain you then you are mistaken. If you don't want to be confused with facts maybe you should research your subject matter more before you respond. "Tis better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt" | ||
<Lightnin> |
Kentucky Fisherman, You should reconsider the Lapua brass. Its not that pricey anymore for .243 or .223. Check out www.brunoshooters.com or www.sinclairintl.com Midway runs some specials every now and then also. Its not cheap but I think its worth the small difference. | ||
<green 788> |
I've used the Lapua .308 brass, and have found it first rate. I tried some Norma .243 once, and it didn't do so well, with donuts forming in the case necks after only a couple of firings. Maybe I'll check out some Lapua .243 one of these days. The Lapua stuff is annealed, if that's important. I've got 100 rounds of .243 Winchester brass that is fantastic. It's not work hardened even after 6 loadings. I'm fortunate that my local Walmart sells reloading supplies so I can get the Winchester cases for 11 bucks for 50. Y'all take care, Dan | ||
one of us |
Hey KY Fisherman, Good luck with the factory ammo. I'd imagine your rifle will like one if not all the factory stuff enough to allow you to be able to Deer hunt this year. Funny you should mention the Shade Tree. One of the other hunting related sites I used to visit still sticks one of the exit101 cookies in computers. Took me awhile to figure out where it was coming from. Pretty smart Preditor folks at that old Board. Good luck on the Egg Shoot. quote:Hey Lightnin, 1. I thought you were being sarcastic in your first comment since the multiple benefits of Annealing are pretty much universally known within reloading. 2. I won't be arguing with you over the merits of "Annealing" casenecks to equalize neck tension, since I do understand how it works. 3. You sure are proving the wisdom of this adage. I'll not bother responding to anymore of your comments. You join a select group of "one other person", that I realize it is a total waste of time communicating with. Best of luck to you Lightnin. [ 10-11-2002, 18:55: Message edited by: Hot Core ] | |||
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<green 788> |
Two other persons, Hotcore... You forgot to count Paul Box, senior ballistics tech at Sierra bullets. Actually you might make it three, if you want to count Ken Waters, whom Paul mentions by name as advocating universal load recipes. So Lightnin, you've joined a fairly elite group here! Congratulations! Dan | ||
one of us |
It has taken me years to learn, but the cheapest is not the cheapest. I now try to pay extra and buy less. I am swearing off: cheap brass cheap scopes cheap scope mounts cheap barrels cheap stocks cheap rifles cheap recoil pads cheap bullets cheap powder cheap primers cheap straps cheap dies cheap loading presses cheap hunting boots cheap places to hunt cheap shooting benches cheap gun cases cheap drill and tap sets cheap wrenches cheap screwdrivers expensive JP triggers I don't want anything to do with: Midway Sarco Centerfire systems Tapco Numerich B Square Entreprise Federal Arms Corp Sportsman Guide Cleaview Investments Century Arms J&G CDNN The Dealer Warehouse Harbor Frieght Et Cetera It is like quiting drinking. Sometimes I fall off the wagon. I live one day at a time. | |||
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<Kentucky Fisherman> |
Just so you know I'm not a total cheapo, Clark, I did save up my coins and bought a Jewell trigger for my AR-15 a couple years ago. Absolutely the nicest trigger I've ever touched and worth every penny. Generally, I think you're correct that we should buy high quality the first time instead of buying cheap equipment/components and then having to replace them time after time. | ||
<green 788> |
A bit of informal research... I spoke to a Sierra tech today, and emailed another one. I've also consulted a couple of loading manuals with information on case annealing. With regard to the uniforming of neck tension, the consensus seems to be that annealing can in certain situations improve neck tension. It basically depends on the condition of the case necks to begin with. Some competition shooters are using brass that hasn't been annealed, and they seem to enjoy good results. The telling point would seem to come when the case necks begin to work harden, and cases that are hardened will show more uniform neck tension after annealing. Seemingly, with fresh, new brass, annealing isn't necessary to achieve consistent neck tension. But Hotcore was half right, as is often the case... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Sorry, HC, couldn't resist! Dan | ||
<Lightnin> |
Hotcore, Thank you much for including me in that other group. Maybe you would be so kind as to enlighten me about these multiple benefits of annealing. I stopped doing it back in the late 70s because brass is so cheap that it isn't worth the hassle for factory rounds. When I form 17 Remingtons from Lapua .223s I anneal because after 4 trips through the required dies the necks are work hardened and need to be softened up a bit. I anneal so that I can ream the necks and then outside turn them to a consistent diameter to achieve proper neck tension. Other than softening the brass so it can be worked I know of no other benefit that is derived from annealing. I admit that I don't know all there is to know about reloading as I have only been at it for a little over 40 years so please tell me all the other things that annealing accomplishes. This old dog can learn new tricks. I'm sure I've missed a few on this trip!! And before anybody jumps me about the factory rounds statement I realize the 17 Rem. is factory loaded by Remington. I don't like Remington brass and will perform lewd acts to avoid using it. There most likely isn't anything wrong with Remington brass it's just a personal thing with me...................Jim [ 10-12-2002, 06:36: Message edited by: Lightnin ] | ||
<green 788> |
"I don't like Remington brass and will perform lewd acts to avoid using it." Good one, Lightnin! I agree completely... I have had some 30-06 Remington cases that did well, but the .223 and .243 stuff is crap from the bottom of the crapper. Kentucky Fisherman, I wanted to apologize for "doing laundry" here, so to speak, but Hotcore does not have his private message feature enabled, nor does he provide an email link. My guess is that he has an unlisted phone number and a nuclear fallout shelter with lots of chicken noodle soup, animal crackers and nudie magazines in there. Probably wears Army-Navy store combat boots and a trench coat with a perpetually flipped up collar, and sunglasses, especially at night ... So he forces us to contend with him here, before God and everybody... Take care to all, Dan [ 10-12-2002, 16:48: Message edited by: green 788 ] | ||
<Lightnin> |
Hotcore, If you won't come out and play with us no more then you're off the Christmas card list until furthur notice..............so there. | ||
<Kentucky Fisherman> |
Somebody from another forum suggested I try to figure out where my brass is binding by simply inking the brass and looking for scratches. I inked up the entire case as well as the bullet on a couple of rounds. When I chambered and extracted them (still had to hammer the bolt a little with my hand to unlock it), there were two or three fine circles scribed around the cases about 1/8 inch back from where the case body starts tapering at the shoulder. Next, I took my mic, measured where the scratches were and compared that to some cases that feed smoothly. There wasn't much difference, maybe 2 or 3 thou, but apparently it was enough to cause the bolt to bind on those slightly fat rounds. What I'll do now is pull the bullets and powder on those rounds, lube and FL resize them, then see if that doesn't fix the problem. I'm not always as careful as I should be about keeping my brass segregated. I'm betting what happened was that most of this brass was FL sized one or two firings ago, but that the 10-12 rounds that are jamming were from a different batch and they hadn't been FL sized for a longer time than that. Guess I've got to start doing like the BR boys and really, really keeping track of how every piece of brass gets handled. Thanks, guys. | ||
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