Weird experience with RP brass

While I personally have never found any of my rifles to shoot better with any particular brand of brass so long as it was all prepared in the same manner, some of my buddies have.

Two come to mind right off the top of my head. I have a friend who owns a 280 Ackley Improved that clearly shoots best with nickel plated Winchester brass. My gunsmith showed me targets that indicated MUCH better groups in a .243 Winchester he built when switching from Winchester brass to Lapua.

R F

Posts: 1220 | Location: Hanford, CA, USA | Registered: 12 November 2000

Ignored post by R Flowers posted

posted

It isn't the brass, per se, that the rifle is preferring.

It is the effect that the brass has on the load recipe that you're noticing.

The Remington brass has, as a rule, a thicker case wall, hence a lower case volume. This translates to higher pressure with the same powder charge.

If you bump the powder charge up in the Winchester cases, you'll see that your rifle's accuracy will return.

I own a Remington 788 in .243 also. My 788 likes these loads, and you may have good results with them:

43.5 grain IMR 4350, 85 grain Sierra BTHP

39.8 grain IMR 3031, 60 grain Sierra HP

42 grains Varget, 70 grain Nosler BT

Anyway, I mention almost the exact scenario you describe in the thread "Who Really Knows What?"

You may want to redevelop your load in the manner I describe at this forum, which can currently be found in the thread "velocity versus group size." A load developed in this manner will be largely impervious to brass case changes, and other pressure changing factors as well, such as minor powder lot variations and outside temperatures.

I have found that runout can be reduced considerably by using Winchester as opposed to Remington brass in the .243. This should enhance accuracy yet again.

Best of luck with your 788, they are truly awesome rifles...

Dan Newberry
green 788

posted

I've noticed differences in Remington & Winchester brass in a couple different ways.
I upgraded my dies to "Competition" dies, with the micrometer seaters with the "window" you insert the bullet into.
I was loading a batch of Remington .308 target loads with 168 HPBT's, and checking concentricity. All the loads were 'way off, .004" to .012"! I tried everything, turning the case 4 times during seating, sizing the case 2 or 4 times, floating the expander, basically going crazy!
Then, I loaded some Winchester cases, and concentricity was all in the order of .001" to .004"! I turned the necks of some Remington cases, and the concentricity of those rounds was in the .004" area.
Aha, I sez! This Remington brass lacks quality control! [Eek!]

On another day, I took the M1A to the range after installing a muzzle brake (I'm a sissy, I guess!).
I adjusted the front sight, at 25, 50, & 100 yards. I shot a 10-round group at 100 yards on a fresh target, and 6 hits were above the X-ring, and 4 were below. We're talking about 2" POI difference. I looked at the brass, and there were 6 Winchester cases and 4 Remington cases grinning back at me! [Confused]

I've repeated this test several times, with both my M1A and a nephew's Remington 700, and the POI has always been lower with the Remington brass, with exactly the same load as in the Winchester brass.
My solution to this problem was pretty simple: I gave all my Remington brass to my nephew, and replaced it with shiney, new Winchester brass! [Big Grin]

Regards, George.

posted

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Green: I've wondered, as you suggest, whether there's some basic difference in the brass that's causing what I've experienced. A difference in case capacity could account for it. I have a Sinclair concentricity gauge with the attachment to let me measure case wall thickness, so maybe I'll see if I can find a difference that way. I realize measuring case neck thickness won't tell me anything definitive about the case capacity, but it's a start.

I've definitely been following posts about your OCW load development process and I think it has merit. I tend to load a lot of stick powders and throw them from a measure without weighing every charge. As I understand it, your OCW method allows for a little "slop" in any component while still keeping the bullets in a reasonable group.

posted

Thanks for the kind words, Kentucky Fisherman... Yes, an OCW load would allow a little head and leg room for thrown charges without losing MOA performance, if that's your prefered method of loading.

Another thing that can cause POI changes with different brass cases is neck tension. I think that's more than likely what was causing George's 2" POI shift mentioned above. The tighter neck holds on to the bullet a bit longer, and the bullet exits the muzzle at a higher point in the recoil arc.

I like Winchester brass in the .243, and have had the best luck with it. I even prefer it to Norma, finding that in my one lot of Norma cases I got donuts inside the case necks with one or two firings of a relatively mild load.

.243's are pretty hard on brass it seems...

The Lapua stuff should be good, however. I do use the Lapua .308 brass, as it is not much more expensive than the Winchester. That's not the case with the .243 brass though... [Frown]

Y'all take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

243winxb

one of us

posted

Different lot numbers of brass (win. or rem.) can make a difference in accuracy. The wall thickness of the neck area is most important. When using standard die sets to load, a fater neck is more accurate. If you buy custom dies (bushing) and neck turn, i find that Rem. Win. brass is the same. 243winxb

Posts: 1295 | Location: USA | Registered: 21 May 2001

Ignored post by 243winxb posted

one of us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Kentucky Fisherman:
What I've found is that this gun seems to have a solid preference for the RP brass over Winchester.

Hey KY Fisherman, (I've got relatives out in Oldham County.)

There are a couple of posibilities I can think of, case-weight variances and neck tension which could be creating the differences you are seeing.

Checking to see if there is a significant weight difference between the two brands is easy enough to check. Just weigh a few of each and see if there is much variance. Probably so.

Varying Neck Tension can be corrected by "Annealing" the necks so they are all the same.

...

quote:
Originally posted by Kentucky Fisherman:
(Green 788) I've definitely been following posts about your OCW load development process and I think it has merit.

A slight correction here. This is actually a method developed by Mr. Creighton Audette and as he should,Green 788 gives him credit for the basis of this Load Development procedure.

I now understand that Green 788 distinguishes his method as "different" by using a Round Robin shooting sequence. Apparently unknown to Green 788, the Round Robin method has the potential to induce worse accuracy into the Groups. This is due to more inconsistent wind conditions at 300yds resulting from the longer period of time it takes to complete this un-necessary task.

Best of luck to you as you develop your Loads.

Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001

Ignored post by Hot Core posted

Dutch

one of us

posted

I have a 7mag that strongly prefers Weatherby headstamp brass.

Couldn't figure out why, until I measured, and the necks have only .002 clearance, one tenth of the WW brass. Lucked myself a "tight neck" setup without trying. Even got the Wea brass on closeout!

It's fun to shoot below .5" with a big game rifle, even if it is only once in a while..... Dutch.

Posts: 4564 | Location: Idaho Falls, ID, USA | Registered: 21 September 2000

Ignored post by Dutch posted

posted

Hotcore,

There is about as much similarity between my method and Audette's as there is between a flintlock and a Remington 700...

I suppose you believe that Fred Flintstone invented the automobile. [Roll Eyes]

I don't recommend shooting at 300 yards until the final stages of load proving. The initial testing is done at 100 yards.

Several folks have reported excellent results with this method, and the round robin sequence of firing prevents disadvantaging groups fired late in a string, due to a fouled or hot barrel, or shooter fatigue or changing weather conditions.

Creighton Audette's loading method was never intended to find the optimal charge weight of a load recipe--only to find the "sweet spot" for a particular rifle.

My OCW load development method is aimed at finding universally good performing load recipes--yes, loads that perform well in the majority of all rifles chambered for them. I know that you don't believe such recipes exist--a belief which puts you at odds with the experiences of Paul Box, senior ballistics tech at Sierra Bullets, not to mention the thousands of shooters who have enjoyed excellent results from proven factory loads such as the Federal Gold Medal match .308 ammo. (For onlookers interested in Paul Box's email to me, check the thead entitled "Universal load recipes, a Sierra tech's positon..." Link it here

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=005965

Hotcore, are you bi-polar by any chance? Just wondering... You've complimented me elsewhere at this forum for my load development method, and then you troll over here and criticize it. If you want me to dig up your words and repost them (as I did in the thread on concentricity, which seems to have left you speechless!) I can.

I'm sorry my load development method differs with yours. I'm sorry that you aren't getting the attention you obviously feel you deserve. You need to realize, however, that you aren't going to elevate yourself by impugning me.

Hey, I don't chase you all over this forum poking holes in your "lightly greased barrel" theory, do I? [Big Grin]

Dan Newberry
green 788

[ 10-08-2002, 07:01: Message edited by: green 788 ]

posted

Hotcore,
Annealing cases won't do a damn thing for making neck tension consistent. The only way to do that is to neck turn to a consistent thickness and then when you resize do it with a bushing die that only puts a couple of thousandths squeeze on the necks.
Mr. Newberry............Salute

one of us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Lightnin:
Hotcore, Annealing cases won't do a damn thing for making neck tension consistent. Mr. Newberry............Salute

Hey Lightnin, HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Best one I've seen since Green 788 thought he "improved" on Mr. Audette's method.

Best of luck to you.

Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001

Ignored post by Hot Core posted

posted

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Lightnin. Don't pay too much mind to Hotcore, he just has Attention Deficit Disorder! He's correct about something every now and then, though. Kind of like a stopped clock, right only twice a day.

I've never bothered with annealing cases. In truth, that's something that most handloaders are no longer doing. It's been my understanding that annealing is done simply to extend case life, not as an aid to uniforming neck tension. That's what Nosler #5 says anyway--but what do they know? [Big Grin]

I try to base my philosophy of reloading on science, and I'm always working to understand why things work or don't work.

Some folks seem to have reloading philosophies more akin to religion, or maybe alchemy. Hey, if it works for them, I say go for it. Believe as you wish...

But Hotcore is like a proselytizing Jehova's Witness with just enough Ernest T. Bass thrown in to make him interesting... And he won't stop throwing rocks through our windows until we all agree with him!

Take care, gentlemen... and you too Hotcore! [Razz]

Dan

posted

Come on, guys, take your pissing match offline. There are a dozen other threads where we can read it if any of us suddenly suffer from withdrawal. [Wink]

And let's not have any "well, he started it" replies. Most of us are intelligent enough to spot who's baiting whom. The question is, which of you has enough control to NOT take the shot when the bullcrap starts gusting. [Smile]

Now, back to the topic. I just weighed three pieces each of the RP and Winchester .243 brass. What I found was that the RP brass runs 7.5 to 8 grains heavier than the Winchester. That appears fairly significant to me and would seem to corroborate the theory that the RP case has less capacity and, therefore, develops higher pressure with a given powder charge than would the Win brass.

I understand that case weight may not directly correlate with case capacity. But since case weight is so much easier to determine, I'm wondering whether any of you have done extensive tests trying to determine how accurate case weight might be as an indicator of capacity. ???

I do generally prefer Win brass over RP, and I think you guys have put me on track toward an accurate Win load by bumping my charge weight up. Thanks.

posted

KF,

Let us know what you discover. The main problem I found with the Remington brass was bad neck wall variations, which caused high runout numbers.

What bullet and powder are you planning to use, by the way?

Dan

posted

I'm using 46.5 grains of IMR4350 pushing a 75 grain V-Max, Dan. That load has given me three or four 5-shot groups in the 5s or 6s at 100. Two weeks ago I moved the target out to 200 and had one group where four shots held at .67 with the fifth shot opening the group up to 2 inches.

With deer season approaching, I had hoped to work up a load in the 90-100 grain range and use this .243 on small whitetails. But now I'm not sure I have enough time (range is 40 miles away), and I'm also hesitant to use a 75 grain V-Max on deer. Mostly I'm worried about that light bullet hitting a rib or shoulderblade and "splashing" without good penetration. Any suggestions/comments, assuming you hunt.

Mike

one of us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Kentucky Fisherman:
Come on, guys, take your pissing match offline. There are a dozen other threads where we can read it if any of us suddenly suffer from withdrawal. And let's not have any "well, he started it" replies. Most of us are intelligent enough to spot who's baiting whom. The question is, which of you has enough control to NOT take the shot when the bullcrap starts gusting.

Hey KY Fisherman, I agree, it is bad when you can not disagree with a post without receiving a bunch of immature sophmoric loonacy in return.

quote:
Originally posted by Kentucky Fisherman:
I'm using 46.5 grains of IMR4350 pushing a 75 grain V-Max, Dan. That load has given me three or four 5-shot groups in the 5s or 6s at 100. Two weeks ago I moved the target out to 200 and had one group where four shots held at .67 with the fifth shot opening the group up to 2 inches.

With deer season approaching, I had hoped to work up a load in the 90-100 grain range and use this .243 on small whitetails. But now I'm not sure I have enough time (range is 40 miles away), and I'm also hesitant to use a 75 grain V-Max on deer. Mostly I'm worried about that light bullet hitting a rib or shoulderblade and "splashing" without good penetration. Any suggestions/comments, assuming you hunt.

I've used a bunch of different 95-100gr bullets from a few different 243Wins on Deer and they will kill them. The biggest problem is they leave a "small" Exit if they leave one at all. Then if you need to track them, it can be difficult when the understory is dense.

But, most of the KY woods I hunted in my youth were fairly open beneath the hardwoods, so this may be no problem for you.

I've settled on a 90gr Speer Hot-Cor in my current 243Win and it has performed as well as the heavier bullets.

Though some folks swear by using the very fragile bullets designed specifically for Varmints on Deer, I agree with your concern about using a 75gr V-Max. A person might get luck and drop one and then again they might just wound one.

If you really want to use the 243Win on Deer and feel like you've run out of Load Development time, then I'd suggest you just buy a couple of boxes of factory 100gr ammo, see which brand the rifle likes the best and use it this year. Then use those same cases to Develop Loads for next year's Deer Hunt.

Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001

Ignored post by Hot Core posted

posted

Kentucky Fisherman,

Hotcore may have a point regarding the factory ammo. The new silver box Winchester Super-X power point 100 grain stuff should do the trick. I'm sure that practically any decent factory ammo would give you at least 2 MOA, which at any range the .243 would be effective at on deer, would suffice. I recently had a .243 H&R single shot which shot this stuff MOA at 100 yards, and my Remington 788 shot it MOA as well. The brass is good stuff, so for 11 bucks for twenty (at Walmart) you can't go wrong.

Sorry about mine and Hotcore's pissing match messing up your thread. You're right, we shouldn't oughta done it... [Frown]

He and I really don't hate each other. We just do this stuff sometimes... And sometimes I fail to consider how it looks to everyone else.

Good day, gentlemen.

And you too, Hotcore [Razz]

!

Dan

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Kentucky Fisherman:
If you really want to use the 243Win on Deer and feel like you've run out of Load Development time, then I'd suggest you just buy a couple of boxes of factory 100gr ammo, see which brand the rifle likes the best and use it this year. Then use those same cases to Develop Loads for next year's Deer Hunt.

Dang, I've been reloading so many years that this obvious solution didn't even occur to me, Hot Core, but it's an excellent one. With all the premium bullets used in factory rounds these days, I'm sure at least one of them will give suitable accuracy, at least for this year. Thanks!

posted

quote:
Originally posted by green 788:
Kentucky Fisherman,

The new silver box Winchester Super-X power point 100 grain stuff should do the trick. ... The brass is good stuff, so for 11 bucks for twenty (at Walmart) you can't go wrong.

Thanks for the Wally World tip, Green. While I don't mind buying a little factory ammo when necessary, I sure hate paying more for it than I have to. I've got a Walmart right around the corner. Maybe I'll try to get over there today and see if they have any .243.

posted

KF,

Let me know how that stuff shoots in your 788 if you do end up trying it...

And I forgot to congratulate you on that 75 grain VMAX load. 46.5 grains of IMR 4350... I'm taking notes!

That's gotta be a killer 400 yard groundhog buster, no? [Big Grin]

Dan

posted

quote:
Originally posted by green 788:
KF,

And I forgot to congratulate you on that 75 grain VMAX load. 46.5 grains of IMR 4350... I'm taking notes!

That's gotta be a killer 400 yard groundhog buster, no?

Dan

Can't report on the effect of the 75 grainer on groundhogs, Green, cause I've only punched paper with it so far. Velocity is only 3000-3050fps because my 788 is the carbine with an 18.5 inch barrel. But since I wanted it as a walking yote gun and I shoot a lot more critters at 40 yards than 400, I'm not too disappointed by the mediocre velocities.

I may, however, be able to report on the effect of the 75 Vmax on eggs soon. There's an egg shoot about 3 hours from me in Somerset, KY, on Saturday, and I may try to make that one. It's an informal shoot organized by some guys from the Predator Masters forum (the old Shade Tree group). Factory class starts with eggs at 200, then goes to 300 for the shoot-off. I think I can hit at least a couple of eggs at 200, but doubt I'll need to worry about making the shoot-off. <g> I've barely got the drop doped at that range anyway.

Mike

PS. I believe 46.5gr of IMR 4350 in a .243 case is half a grain or a grain over the max listed in some manuals with the 75gr Vmax. Obviously I don't need to caution you, but some newbie (like myself) will get this thread sometime in the future when he puts ".243" in the search window. So for the newbie: Start around 40gr of 4350 and work your way up, just like I did, checking for signs of pressure in YOUR gun.

posted

Hotcore,
I am curious what you found so funny with my post? If you think I posted that information to entertain you then you are mistaken. If you don't want to be confused with facts maybe you should research your subject matter more before you respond. "Tis better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt"

posted

Kentucky Fisherman,
You should reconsider the Lapua brass.
Its not that pricey anymore for .243 or .223. Check out www.brunoshooters.com or
www.sinclairintl.com Midway runs some specials every now and then also. Its not cheap but I think its worth the small difference.

posted

I've used the Lapua .308 brass, and have found it first rate. I tried some Norma .243 once, and it didn't do so well, with donuts forming in the case necks after only a couple of firings. Maybe I'll check out some Lapua .243 one of these days. The Lapua stuff is annealed, if that's important.

I've got 100 rounds of .243 Winchester brass that is fantastic. It's not work hardened even after 6 loadings. I'm fortunate that my local Walmart sells reloading supplies [Smile]

so I can get the Winchester cases for 11 bucks for 50.

Y'all take care,

Dan

one of us

posted

Hey KY Fisherman, Good luck with the factory ammo. I'd imagine your rifle will like one if not all the factory stuff enough to allow you to be able to Deer hunt this year.

Funny you should mention the Shade Tree. One of the other hunting related sites I used to visit still sticks one of the exit101 cookies in computers. Took me awhile to figure out where it was coming from. Pretty smart Preditor folks at that old Board.

Good luck on the Egg Shoot.

quote:
Originally posted by Lightnin:
Hotcore, 1. I am curious what you found so funny with my post? If you think I posted that information to entertain you then you are mistaken.

2. If you don't want to be confused with facts maybe you should research your subject matter more before you respond.

3."Tis better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt"

Hey Lightnin, 1. I thought you were being sarcastic in your first comment since the multiple benefits of Annealing are pretty much universally known within reloading.

2. I won't be arguing with you over the merits of "Annealing" casenecks to equalize neck tension, since I do understand how it works.

3. You sure are proving the wisdom of this adage.

I'll not bother responding to anymore of your comments. You join a select group of "one other person", that I realize it is a total waste of time communicating with.

Best of luck to you Lightnin.

[ 10-11-2002, 18:55: Message edited by: Hot Core ]

Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001

Ignored post by Hot Core posted

posted

Two other persons, Hotcore...

You forgot to count Paul Box, senior ballistics tech at Sierra bullets. Actually you might make it three, if you want to count Ken Waters, whom Paul mentions by name as advocating universal load recipes.

So Lightnin, you've joined a fairly elite group here! Congratulations! [Big Grin]

Dan

Clark

one of us

posted

It has taken me years to learn, but the cheapest is not the cheapest.

I now try to pay extra and buy less.

I am swearing off:
cheap brass
cheap scopes
cheap scope mounts
cheap barrels
cheap stocks
cheap rifles
cheap recoil pads
cheap bullets
cheap powder
cheap primers
cheap straps
cheap dies
cheap loading presses
cheap hunting boots
cheap places to hunt
cheap shooting benches
cheap gun cases
cheap drill and tap sets
cheap wrenches
cheap screwdrivers
expensive JP triggers

I don't want anything to do with:
Midway
Sarco
Centerfire systems
Tapco
Numerich
B Square
Entreprise
Federal Arms Corp
Sportsman Guide
Cleaview Investments
Century Arms
J&G
CDNN
The Dealer Warehouse
Harbor Frieght
Et Cetera

It is like quiting drinking.
Sometimes I fall off the wagon.
I live one day at a time.

Posts: 2249 | Registered: 27 February 2001

Ignored post by Clark posted