I was trying to develop a supersonic 338 whisper hunting load for my suppressed Savage 10 and ran into a problem I have never heard of before. I had several different loads using Federal small rifle primers with WC844 from 29 grains to 33 grains. The 33 grain load filled the case nearly enough for a compressed load.

The 29 grain loads did not function properly. The primer detonated and pushed the bullet into the barrel, but the powder formed into a hard clump. I had to tap hard to get the bullet out of the barrel.



How is it possible that a primer has enough power to push a bullet into the barrel but not enough heat to ignite the powder? The jug of WC844 surplus pull down did not clump or smell of ammonia in the jug, so as far as I know it is ok. I will have to load some in 5.56 to ensure it is working right I guess.

For some reason the 33 grain loads functioned, but much poorer than expected. I only got about 1450 fps with a 185 grain bullet. I was expecting at least 2000 fps. I suspect I may get better performance with a magnum primer, but not 600 fps more.

Any insight into what is causing this? Thanks.

Ranb

I don't have a clue. But will be following this thread.
I had a similar incident with a S&W 460 mag load. Was using H110 with a Hornady 240 gr. XTP/mag and WLR primer. Bullet lodged in the forcing cone. Locked up the revolver, big mess. Unable to weight the powder but appeared to be little or none of it burned.

Anybody have an idea?

muck

Small rifle primer?
Have you tried the magnum primer?
Many spherical powders have poor ignition characteristics at low to starting load pressures. Those powders can also be posotion sensitive when the case is not close to full.

For whisper type loads do yourself a favor and quit using the spherical propellants for loads that are low pressure, low velocity and low acoustics. Spherical propellants in some combinations will give a huge muzzle flash and concussion.
Use an appropriate burning rate canister extruded powder. You will not save much using surplus powders for such small charges.

Doesn't appear the primer even took any of the deterrent off the powder kernels.

SR4759's advice was dead on in my opinion.

Did the same thing a few years ago with a 9.3x62, starting charge of IMR 4895. Believe part of the problem with that one was primers seated too deep. On the positive side, had the gunsmith on speed dial after that, and took to using the calipers to check primer depth religiously. Think in my case it was 98% operator error. Maybe 100%...
If you,ve got access to a Norma reloading manual, there,s a little interesting reading on page 149.

I've experienced the same thing using 844 and H335 starting load data in 7.65x53 Mauser loads. I just figured some of the primers were crap.

As I started in the OP, I am trying to develop a high pressure/velocity load. I will try magnum primers, but I think I need a faster powder instead, but something slower than the WC820 I use for the subsonic loads.

The load shown in the photo filled the case 85% full, I never thought of that as a small charge. I tried 4895 the day before. It appeared to burn better but gave lower velocities. I wasn't trying to save money by using the surplus powder, it was on the shelf.

I have some 3031 and Reloader 7, both are slower than H110 and faster than 748/H335/4895.

Ranb

I saw this once with old 38/40 ammo. The powder
still burned so it was the primer. I think the
primer burned but slower than usual. If your
primer is weak you will get unburned powder
granules so this may be an extreme case.

Ball powders are hard to ignite, try stick powders and see what happens.

Same thing happened to me with this powder (WC844) in starting load for 30-06 with 150gr. Not terribly surprising since ball powder take more to ignite and like to be in case 90% or so filled. More or less is inviting problems.

This was a problem with the 458 mag in its early days. The ball powder used by Winchester was compressed to the point it "clumped" and offered a greatly reduced surface area for the primer to start it burning. The compnay later changed powders.
Ball is hard to ignite and when the pressure drops from the bullets movment before enough pressure has built to keep it burning you get a squib.

quote:

Winchester loaded the cartridges with a ball powder that required compression to fit enough in the .458 short case to provide required performance. In time, however, the compressed power charge “caked,” causing erratic burn and poor performance levels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_Winchester_Magnum

This is the same reason many loading manuals don't have reduced (starting) loads for H110/296.
Some powders need a certain pressure to begin ignition. This is taken care of by loading with magnum primers and loading at or close to max loads.
Personally, I have had problems approaching some max loads, so I tend to ignore these powders.
The real problem is when someone doesn't know what happened and you have a bullet and a wad/clod of powder in the barrel and take another shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
This was a problem with the 458 mag in its early days. The ball powder used by Winchester was compressed to the point it "clumped" and offered a greatly reduced surface area for the primer to start it burning. The compnay later changed powders.
Ball is hard to ignite and when the pressure drops from the bullets movment before enough pressure has built to keep it burning you get a squib.

Thanks O'Joe, this sounds like the most plausible answer.

muck

I had something similar happen on a 17 HMR, but it was because the neck of the brass was cracked. The only reason I noticed it was because when I ejected the brass, I noticed powder on the bench top. The bullet was about 2 inches down the tube!!!!

Long long ago when I was just a newbie I tried reduced loads in a 30-30 using H110. The load only half filled the case. When the powder was forward agains the bullet the load worked ok. When tilted back to put the powder against the primer it locked the rifle up. This was reprodcucible at will. The 788 will lock up easily due to the rear locking bolt.
When it was that position sensitive I took it as a sign I was playing in unknown teritory.

I had the same issue with my remington 700 in 257 weatherby using a large rifle primer. I switched to a large rifle magnum primer and had no more issues.

I loaded and shot jugs of wc844 never had any trouble.

This is the situation that can be a precursor to that phenomenon called detonation. It seems to occur with cases that have low charge weights i.e. quite a bit of air space, but detonation is usually associated with slower powders which by nature are harder to ignite because of the retardant coating on them. Slow fire or hang fires usually manifest themselves with small charges of powder.
It seems that with the powder settled in the bottom of a chambered case the primer flashes across the powder and starts the bullet into the rifling sometimes igniting the powder a fraction of a second later or not at all as in your case. Had the powder ignited pressures could have gone sky high or detonation could occur with slower powders and large air space.

The charges that did not ignite were 85% full. This is a small charge in your opinion?

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
The charges that did not ignite were 85% full. This is a small charge in your opinion?

Ranb

I miss-read your post, thinking you were loading lower for sub-sonics. No I wouldn't call 85% loading was a small charge but then ball powders are notorious for not giving good ignition when all things are not right.

unique posts above that ball powder likes to have 90% or more loading density.

My comments re hangfires and detonation still apply though with any load that exhibits poor ignition of powder.

I tested some magnum small rifle primers today with WC844 powder. I got 1950 fps with a 29 grain charge, the same load that with a standard primer did not ignite. It did much better than expected with the magnum primers.

Ranb

quote:

Originally posted by ranb40:
I tested some magnum small rifle primers today with WC844 powder. I got 1950 fps with a 29 grain charge, the same load that with a standard primer did not ignite. It did much better than expected with the magnum primers.

Ranb

Now you are talking.

Testing progresses. Using magnum primers or filling the case with powder and seating the bullet until the bottom of the bearing surface is at the bottom of the neck is eliminating the misfires.

Filling the case with the slower rifle powders like 3031 does not give enough velocity. Use of magnum primers with WC820 results in excessive pressures before I can get the 2200 fps I want.

So far I am getting about 2150 fps with 25.5 grains of WC820 and a standard primer. I still need to buy a powder that is slower than H110 and faster than 3031.

Ranb

Try 4227, Re7, AA1680, or 4198.... These are more or less in order fastest to slowest... 4227 may not cycle an auto action... The others shouldn't give you any trouble... 4227 and 4198 are stick powders... Re7 and AA1680 are ball powders.. if that matters to you...

I had weird problems with H110 leaving really hard, crusty fouling after 3 or 5 shots in my 7.62x39... and it was SUPER sensitive to position and ignition.. Just not worth fooling with it...

I ran into exactly the same issue developing loads for my 7.62x39 bolt gun... Weird ignition problems that drove me CRAZY on cold mornings.... HOT afternoons were a completely different story...

Switched to Magnum primers or Winchester LR primers (Which were hotter than any other primer in my own testing, including Magnums)... and 100% of the weird ignition problems vanished.

On your other question... Trying to supress...

Use a fast powder that gets you nearly 100% burn in the barrel... Muzzle flash/blast increases dramatically when you are below say 98% burn... and the more flash - the harder it is to quiet down....

Thanks

Mr. Ackley, in his writings on detonation told of occasion where a 4831 load did not ignite and on removing the cartridge case he had to dig the powder, much compressed, out of the case with a screw driver... Modern powders with there many forms and many coatings, greater challenge to primers and much care needs to go into selection. Before the .223 and small rifle magnum primers, the advice was to use Remingtons with stick powders and Winchester primers with ball powder. Not a bad "general principle" even yet I suspect. LUCK. Happy trails. Happy Holidays.

Since my 338 whisper was designed to shoot heavy subsonic suppressed and I am turning it into a longer range suppressed deer rifle, noise takes a back seat to power, accuracy and reliable ignition. It is much less noisy than any other supersonic center fire cartridge I have used other than 223 and 22 k-hornet.

Since WC820 is too fast and 30131 is too slow, my next powder will be IMR 4198. This will be the only powder I have had to buy just for this cartridge.

Ranb