Guys,

I bough a Savage 110 youth rifle in 308 Win for my son's X-Mas present. I took it to the range today to set the scope (Kentucky youngsters get two free days of deer hunting following X-Mas).

I bought two boxes of Remington's Managed Recoil ammo. This thing shoots all over the place! I'm not talking 2"...I mean all over the paper. Shots were left and right to a smaller degree, but mostly like 5" high one shot...next shot from 12-14" lower than the previous. Maybe the next shot would be close and then the fourth back to 5-7" high. I've never seen anything like it. I cleaned the barrel prior to shooting and I cleaned it after three shots and then again after the tenth.

The scope is a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x40. The mounts are the el cheapo Kwiq Site see-thru variety (the only thing the dealer had in stock). I hate the fact that I could not find a rifle w?out sights...

The temperature was 38 degrees and the wind was calm. I've never shot this managed recoil ammo, but the bbl. was never even so much as warm??? I waited 3 minutes btwn. shots anyway and I waited five-seven minutes periodically.

I don't have dies for 308 yet, should I send this rifle back now or do you think it is the ammo?

BTW I checked the action screws...they were fine. I'm lost on this one guys...I didn't expect the little thing to shoot sub MOA at least with the ammo I used, but I expect better than all over a 8.5x11" sheet of paper and beyond.

Thanks guys...

Id try buying a good set of talley rings.

When something shoots as badly as this - in particular a Savage - you should always suspect your sighting equipment. I would be suspicious of the mount, and if that is OK, then the scope.

This could be a hard one to fix by Christmas. Any good smiths around, who might devote a bit of time to a desperate Dad?? Or if not, how experienced are you with respect to mounting scopes?? Have you got another scope to be able to try out, to determine whether the first one might have a problem??

In general, and when you get time, get rid of the see-through mounts. A pair of steel Weaver bases with a Burris Signature Zee (with polymer inserts) is a hard combination to beat these days. Won't mar your scope, and will forgive a bit of misalignment in the scope rings. Dual Dovetails is another good option.

- mike

First, don't apologize for the qwik site rings/bases. A friend of mine, Dwight Furrow of Thorndike, Maine, was a 5 (five) time national benchrest shooter of the year (for score). He used Qwik-site mounts (the one piece base/mount style, granted, not the see through design). They are well made rings. Check the old Precision Shooting Magazines from about 7 years ago. He passed away 4 years ago.

Your head/eye alignment may be off, as well as follow through with the high mounts. Try using a dish towel (folded over several times to add height from the stock's comb to your check to give you a comfortable (non-straining) head position. Try this, it may help a great deal.

He also used Rem 788 actions and Hart barrels (for the record). He tought me a great deal about shooting and reloading.

Make sure your mounts are secure. Retighten them. Make sure your action bolts are tight. Point gun up, and butt on table. Loosen action bolts. Make sure recoil lug is firmly against the stock mortise (check to see if there is any debris in the stock which may get in betweent the metal work and the stock). With the rifle still pointing up (gravity to drop recoil lug against mortise with action bolts loose), tighten front action bolt. Keep a finger near the rear tang while you tighten the rear action bolt. If you feel the rear tange deflect or move when tightening the rear action bolt, you are putting stress on the action-which can cause inaccuracy. You may need to put a skim coat of bedding compoung under the rear tang (front action tight, and no rear action bolt until bedding cured). Check to make sure barrel is not touching the forend stock (free floated barrel). You may need to sand away part of the stock that is touching the barrel.

Try another brand of ammo. 150 grain flat base if you can find them. They will be lower in recoil than 165gr or 180g. Also, check your shooting technique. Are you following through? Apologize in advance if I'm stepping on toes about shooting technique. Not everyone knows how to shoot from the bench properly-which doesn't contribute to accuracy.

Also, you may want to take a brass brush and wrap some 0000 steel wool around it, lube it up (bore solvent or light oil like Marvel Mystery Oil). Run it up and down the barrel 50 - 100 times or so, to smooth out the barrel. Maybe there are some left over rough spots. 0000 steel wool will polish, not scratch a bore-even a stainless one. Don't use anything more coarser than 0000 (4/0) steel wool. It's a way to "condition" a bore, sort of like fire lapping. You could also try something like flitz or remclean bore cleaner (with fine abrasives in it). Go easy, you are just trying to find out if the barrel needs some smoothing, you aren't trying to make a mirror out of it. Does a cotton patch go through the bore easily, when dry? If so, you may not need to do this part. If so, just go up and down the bore 25-50 times with the 4/0 steel wool-wrapped bronze brush.
Shoot a group with the dish towel, height added cheek/head position "elevator." Look at the action/action bolt area second. Then check the mount/ring screw tightness . Try150 grain ammo fourth (with dish towel "elevator"). Bore polish fourth (probably not necessary).

A simple Weaver base (1 or 2 piece base) and rings will get that scope down lower. I'd opt for the Burris Signature Zee rings (Zee rings fit on Weaver style bases), so as not to put any ring marks on your $400 scope. Standar Weaver rings will hold, but they dent scope tubes.

Hope you find something quick. Should be a great Christmas gift. Great scope too, I may add from a great dad.

if the mounts are good, i'd try some Federal Gold Medal match bullets in 168gr. see how they shoot

Odds are you aren't going to take care of correcting that rifle by Christmas.

You need another course of action to get a shootable rifle in that young Briers hands by Christmas. Your shooting buddies might be able to float a loaner. Than after Christmas beg barrow, buy or steal a set of .308 dies and play switch with the scope from another rifle. Make the right move and make it a Merry Christmas. roger

The Savage 110 is not a pricey rifle but I just worked up a load for a friends 270 and put 6 bullets in one ragged hole. I was very surprised and the thing has an extra cheap bushnell scope on it. I did have to soften the trigger a little. Unless your son is real small I would shoot the normal ammo.

Good Luck

Since time is of the essence here, I'd run over to Wal Mart and pick up a set of the weaver brand 4X4 rings, they have them here. And has been suggested, some regular ammo. If you have a different scope put that in the rings and see how it shoots. If it makes a big difference put your leupy in and see if it stays the same. If it opens up then you know you have a bad scope.

The mounts/rings are the foundation of accuracy. You can buy a $1000 rifle and a $600 scope but if you put it all together with $9. (see through) mounts witch are the worst thing ever invented. You will get a setup that wont shoot very well.Get quality Leupold or Burris mounts. Mount your scope low, line up and lap the rings then make sure everything is tight and you will not go wrong.

I would try some other ammo, maybe a couple of different brands since time is short.

I'd be checkin to make sure it's sitting in the stock right -then make sure the SCREWS are tight.

Sorry-missed the part at the end where you said you had allready checked the screws.

Did you shoot the rifle with open sights ? I had a bad scope did the same thing shot rifle at 50 yards and hit every time 1.MOA with 3 shots , next look at muzzle crown had a bad crown once rifle shot in circles .

If you are hunting in the woods, then I would just trade in that Savage bolt rifle for a Model 94 Winchester rifle in .30-30 WCF. I would not even bother with getting a scope.

KISS = Keep It Simple Simon.

Impossible to resolve from this distance, but those see-thru mounts are pretty weak........

First I'd try different ammmo. Have you got a source for the Federal Low Recoil load nearby? If not try some Remington Corelokt 150s. FWIW the several boxes of Remington Managed Recoil 30'06 ammo I've tried shoots comfortably under two inches at 100 yards with a 4x scope for three different shooters. Those see-through bases are nothing special and even when they are working as advertised they prevent most folks from getting a good cheekweld which can lead to parallax problems. Your local Walmart ought to have a set of plain old Weaver bases and rings. They are cheap yet rugged. After that a fella ought to check the action screws, barrel channel clearance, and the muzzle crown. Good luck. Good hunting!

1: try the Iron sights at about 50 yards, if it shoots good then the scope or mount is the problem.
2: change to some different ammo, some guns just won't shoot some brands or types of bullets.
3: check if the barrel is free floating. if it is then put some shim ( folded up paper of match book) between the barrel and the stock near the forearm cap. if it isn't free floating, shim just in front of the action so that it free floats.
4: Return the rifle and get another one. You paid good money for a gun that will shoot straight.
Mike

I'd try a new set of rings first. That is the easiest thing to change. If that doesn't help i'd pull the stock and checkto see if the recoil lug is making contact with the stock. I've seen a couple of Savages that were inconsisent because the recoil lug was not making contact with the stock. With a free floated barrel the rcoil lug and action bedding become a lot more important.

I fixed one with a thin shim of aluminum from a pop can. We had tried everyting else and nothing seemed to work. The shim really helped the groups. After we discovered that this was the issue, we took the shim out and bedded the back side of the recoil lug. After bedding it shot 1" groups.

You have three major components; shooter, equipment, and ammo. Try a different ammo first. If it still does the same, and you know its not you, then its the equipment. All you have to do then is figure out if its the gun or the sight. At least that's the way I'd attack it. sundog

I recently bought a Savage .308 package rifle with the new (cheap) stock) and very poor rings.

The rifle was not as bad as yours, but has not been good. I replaced the rings ... that helped. Walked around a bit still. 2-3" groups.

Worked the mounts and tuned the load. Seems to have gotten better after about 100 rds through it. But ... one time at the range it would should cloverleaves at 50 yards, another it was back to 2".

Came to the conclusion that the action/bbl is inherently fine ... the stock isn't cutting it. Have gotten a decent stock (Brownell's synthetic with an aluminum insert for the action). Have bedded it and am in the process of painting the stock now.

On the other hand, we acquired an older 30-06 Savage with the better stock. We put the cheap see-thru rings on it, and it shoots like a house of fire. We were careful to get everything tight when we mounted the scope. Has killed three deer already this year.

My guess is that something is loose or the scope is screwed up. Look for that first.

When you can get it to a couple to three inches at 100 yards, then worry about optimizing loads. After that, fix the flexible stock that came with the rifle.

I once bought a Ruger #1A in .270 Winchester. I got the gun cheap as the guy said it would not shoot worth a damn. He'd replaced the factory scope rings with a see throufg set, Now that set of rings seemed to be very well made, but I could not for the life of me get good groups, mostly due to, I think a very poor cheek weld to the stock. I replaced those rings with a proper Ruger set and the gun is now a great shooter.
I ran into the fellow I bought the gun from at the range and he was shocked at the difference the change in ring set ups made. From 6" groups to 1.0" groups. I definitely feel those see through rings may be a big part of the problem. Second place would be a bad Leupold scope. It happens. I've gotten one myself. No big deal as they fix it with a short turn around time.
Paul B.

You sure do not have whole lot a time to fix the problem regardless it is rings or scope. But since rifle is for youngster with good eyes you just take damned scope and rings off and let him hunt with open sights for two days. This could be an excellent oportunity to have him learn to use open sights. These days everybody thinks that without scope you can't even shoot the rifle. Just my 2 cents.

I would have to agree with 450 Rigby. I learned to shoot with open sights, and it was not until after the military that I even owned a scope.

I purchased a 25WSSM this last spring, and out-of-the-box it was pretty accurate. I separated the stock from the action and barrel, put it back together in the thing was all over the place. God, I hate injection molded stocks. Come to find out a little piece of plastic in the last action screw hole came out. It is in the shop getting a new stock now.

I'm no expert, but I would have to agree with most of the opinions that your rings are probably the culprit, or your scope.

First of all, are you sure it is a model 110 and are you sure it is .308 Winchester?

The 110 Savages are for the longer cases (.30-06 size), the 10 Savages are for the shorter cases (.308 size).

So....after all this what did you find?????

I would first do different ammo then check the crown and finally shoot it with the irons. Try the Fed Gold Medal match 168's. If it won't shoot that, it won't shoot.

Gabe

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
Odds are you aren't going to take care of correcting that rifle by Christmas.

You need another course of action to get a shootable rifle in that young Briers hands by Christmas. Your shooting buddies might be able to float a loaner. Than after Christmas beg barrow, buy or steal a set of .308 dies and play switch with the scope from another rifle. Make the right move and make it a Merry Christmas. roger[/QU

It is now Christmas Eve. How does this story end? It has all the ingredients to be a classic O'Henry short Christmas story. roger

I'm betting its the reduced loads. I haven't read much good about them yet. Easier to load down with handloads to tailor one to work in your specific rifle. I would run some full power loads as suggested, particularly match loads, and see if it still shoots all over.

Any updates? Try different ammo? How did it shoot? Keep us posted.

I vote for the scope being trashed, loose reticle, or lens. Never had a Savage shoot that bad. Even a rough as a gravel road (new)308 bore would shoot 5 in 2 1/2" with tons of copper in the bore. Cleaned the hell out of it with patches coated with heavy duty auto polishing compound-shot 1/2" groups, minimum copper after 40 rounds.

Bad scope, or bad mounts, no tweaking of trigger, bedding, etc is going to cure a 2 ft. group. Something has to be grossly f-upped. Not an ammunition problem either, something is very loose.

The 110 is the long action for 30-06 the 10 is the short action for the 308. Check your caliber. Jim

What was the end of this story? roger

Sorry guys for the late reply. I bought some factory 150 grain loads from Wally World...mucho better!!! For this hunt, we knew that shots would be close. So, I set the scope at fifty yards because the wind was blowing so hard the day I shot. I shot three 1" - 1 1/2" groups at fifty yards under windy conditions. Considering the bore is still new, I'll take that.

I don't believe the scope is bad. I pulled it off a Savage 114 in 300 WSM that was also new, but shooting 1.25" groups with my first load.