I am purchasing a Savage 99EG in 300 Savage and would like to reload for it. I would think a lever action would cycle best after a full length resize. However, I read in Jack O'Connor's The Rifle Book Second Revised Edition, p. 207 that he believes reloading 300 Savage for that rifle has its limitations. He specifically says,

"The 300 Savage is not a gun nuts cartridge. Because the 99 action does not lock up near the head of the case, there is always some stretching of cases, and usually a case that has been fired cannot be put back in the chamber and the breach block closed up. Because of the sharp shoulder on the case, it is difficult to full length resize, and handloading simply does not payoff."

I respect his opinion but would lke to hear from others' experience as well. I expect some of you have that experience. Sure would like to hear Paul Reed's opinion. I read his July, 29, 2008 post and am inspired.(see below)


http://forums.accuratereloadin...=137101199#137101199

First off , for me at least the link dosn't work

Second , I disagree with the idea of not reloading 300 Savage brass from the 99

I have owned 2 99's in 300 Savage
I reloaded for both of them
I dought I shot more than a box of factory in both combined

And I shot the first one for 10 years as my go to deer rifle

IMO if you don't try for MAX velosity and stay in the middle of the load range
Your case life will be pretty good

I turned the Sizind die out
I didn't FL size
But I also sized the cases enough to easly chamber

John

quote:

Originally posted by Bob58:
I am purchasing a Savage 99EG in 300 Savage and would like to reload for it. I would think a lever action would cycle best after a full length resize. However, I read in Jack O'Connor's The Rifle Book Second Revised Edition, p. 207 that he believes reloading 300 Savage for that rifle has its limitations. He specifically says,

"The 300 Savage is not a gun nuts cartridge. Because the 99 action does not lock up near the head of the case, there is always some stretching of cases, and usually a case that has been fired cannot be put back in the chamber and the breach block closed up. Because of the sharp shoulder on the case, it is difficult to full length resize, and handloading simply does not payoff."

Sadly O'Conner was correct. The Mod 95 Win. has the same fault. It can be eliviated with a little patience and a good set of sizing bushings along with a good fl die. Is it worth it ? Only you can be the judge. Personally it's kinda nice making stuff happen. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Bob58:
Because the 99 action does not lock up near the head of the case, there is always some stretching of cases,

True.

quote:

and usually a case that has been fired cannot be put back in the chamber and the breach block closed up.

Depends on how High the Load Pressure happens to be.

quote:

Because of the sharp shoulder on the case, it is difficult to full length resize,

I did not find that to be a Reloading issue and have no idea what he could have been talking about. The Shoulder Angle is high enough that it can cause a "Hang-Up" on occasion during feeding from the magazine. It will catch as it begins to enter the chamber on the sharp edge of the barrel. As long as you are aware that it can happen though, it is not a Huge issue for non-dangerous Game.

quote:

and handloading simply does not payoff."

I'll guess he had "short Case Life" in mind here. Case Stretching is indeed a serious concern. With SAFE MAX Loads, it is possible to get Case Head Separations in 2-3 Reloads.

I found using Once Fired "Military" 308Win Cases reformed and Trimmed to length gave me better Case Life than regular 300Sav Cases. But, it is a lot of work for a few more Reloads and the Loads "might" need to be reduced a bit when the Military Cases are heavier. The best way to get increased Case Life is just as John and Roger said - DO NOT use Full Power Loads.

Always check your Cases for Insipient Case Head Separations with the old Bent paper Clip with a sharpened tip. And I found a FLR was better than a P-FLR. You want to FLR the Case "just enough" that an empty will easily chamber without having to force the Lever closed - no snug closure.

I used a good bit of IMR-4064 and 150gr Nosler Solid Base bullets in the oneI had. Groups were right at 1.5"(1"-2") with any scope I tried.

Keep your Chamber ""CLEAN"" and when you do have a Case Head separation, you might be able to bump the Recoil Pad on the ground and have the front portion of the Case pop right out. They did for me.
-----

The M99 sure carries well in your hand. What kind of scope are you going to put on it, or do you plan to use the Iron Sights?

quote:

"The 300 Savage is not a gun nuts cartridge. Because the 99 action does not lock up near the head of the case, there is always some stretching of cases, but it's far more important that the rifle has the proper headspace as many savage 99 rifles do have excessive headspace. My .308 does and has fired less than five boxes of ammo and almost all of that was factory loads.

and usually a case that has been fired cannot be put back in the chamber and the breach block closed up. This has not been the case for my gun.

Because of the sharp shoulder on the case, it is difficult to full length resize, explain all the Ackley improved cases then!

and handloading simply does not payoff." BS

I'm not buying this statement at all!.....

If you want a M-99 in .300 Savage then get one and go hunting!

I loaded many 300 Savage rounds for an old (( Savage. There are problems with the case design as it is easy to cave in the shoulder of the case when seating the bullet and I had to keep pressures at bottom charge levels or cases would not last 3 firings. I used a Lee Loader so I don't think action stretch gave me any issues if I kept pressures down.

I do not have a 99 but I do have a bolt .300 Savage that I load for with a Lee Loader. It's pretty straight forward and I've yet to have any problems. I don't know whether to reccommend a small based die or the PLF yur cases. If your fired brass won't rechamber, maybe a small based die would help out.
If all else fails, just don't plan on a lot of reloads per case. I think I have a sack of 1x Savage brass somewhere that I'd consider selling.

O'conner was writing for an audience that was largely unfamiliar with the then relatively new (to Everyman) practice of handloading. When he states that the .300 Savage (presumably in the Model 99) is "not a gun nut's cartridge" he is certainly correct in that it doesn't lend itself to high precision. (Where he got the notion that the 30 degree shoulder is a problem is something of a mystery -- maybe he had a rough sizing die?) O'conner's pronouncements notwithstanding, today's handloader shouldn't be discouraged from making his own .300 Savage ammunition.

I load for a .300S Savage 99 and neither need nor expect long case life due to full length sizing. On the other hand, complete "full length sizing" is neither necessary nor advisable. As with any cartridge, one should only run the case as far into the sizing die as necessary in order for the case to rechamber with ease. This will avoid overworking brass from chambers with overly generous (there is no such thing as "excessive") headspace.

Also, if you keep pressures at factory SAAMI levels, brass life will be fairly long since those pressures are pretty benign to brass.

To highjack this thread for a moment:

Stonecreek, you said there's no such thing as "excessive headspace". Please explain.

Thnx

Bob,
My experiences mirror and agree with many of the posts of our colleagues above with my Savage 99EG. I think the best advice for reloading the 300 Savage is to remember that it is a 300 Savage...not a 300 Magnum. If you stay within the established loading manual maximums and work carefully you will find an accurate load that is more than suitable for deer at reasonable ranges. Looking at my reloading notes there were a number of points that I'll mention that came from a culmination of my reloading experiences and also some taken from Ken Water's Handloader articles. In no particular order:
• The 300 Savage has a very short neck; deep bullet seating is required and often detrimental to accuracy
• Avoid bullets that project more than 0.73” out of neck
• Nosler Ballistic Tips are too long and the boat tail will sometimes causes seating problems
• Nosler 150 and 165 grain Partitions are excellent choices in the Savage due to flat base and proven performance. Try to use flat based bullets if possible
• Maximum working pressure is 46K PSI according to SAAMI
• Maximum overall cartridge length is 2.60”
• The Speer 165 Grand Slam performed well in Water’s Model 99EG (same experience for me)
• The standard 1:12” twist does not lend itself well to heavy bullets and perhaps the 125 and 130 grain bullets are better choices. I plan to test the 130 grain TSX flat based bullets to get a bit more velocity.
• Ken had a case rupture which resulted in a split butt stock, avoid maximum loads
• Full power loads result in excessive case stretch.
• Run all loaded rounds through the action before using, the Savage is sensitive to overall length and will not close
• Ken felt that IMR 3031 was the best overall powder in contrast to the recommended IMR 4064
• Maximum case length is 1.871”, Trim cartridge cases to 1.860”
• DO NOT EXCEED 0.470” expansion on pressure ring
• Use 1x fired cases in that rifle for load work up to “pre-stretch” cases. I set my sizing die similar to PFLR but just enough to size it minimally. So far the cases don't seem to stretch abnormally and I've gotten 4 reloads out of them. I don't really shoot it extensively and basically worked up a few hunting loads and will use them for most purposes. I'm willing to buy cases from time to time. HotCore's idea of using 308 cases is a good idea and I'll have to try that.
• Reduce maximum loads by 5% to increase accuracy
• Maximum load for IMR 4064 is 41.0gr/IMR4064/150 grain bullet
• Crimp if desired though not needed
• Sight the 150 grain loads to +1.5” @ 100 for a zero at 150 yards

• I tested three factory loads in my 99:
• Federal blue box 150 grain SP, average velocity = 2568, 5 shot group of 1 3/8" at 100 yards
• Remington 150 grain CoreLokt yellow/green box, average velocity = 2438, 5 shot group of 8" at 100 yards
• Remington 180 grain CoreLokt yellow/green box, average velocity = 2195 fps, 5 shot group of 6" at 100 yards.

• The Savage 99 is sensitive to how it is placed on the sandbags. Best results obtained by resting the front of the action on the bag and not the forearm.
• My most accurate loads were:
• 39.0grains/IMR4064/150 grain Nosler Partition @ 2299fps, 3 shots in 1.0 " @ 50 yards
• 39.0 grains/IMR 4064/165 grain Speer Grand Slam @ 2321 fps, 3 shots into 2.25 inches at 50 yards.

• All of my testing was done with a Marble rear tang peep sight and sourdough front bead...the groups probably reflect the effect of 56 year old eyes and the challenge ofshooting irons.
• See Handloader #209 for more data

The 300 Savage is a grand classic old cartridge capable of taking deer size game cleanly and has done so for many years. Give it the respect it is due and don't try to make it into something it isn't and it will be a good friend in the field. I think the EG model is one of the most pleasing of the Model 99 line and you get the advantage of a 24 inch barrel for a bit more velocity. It carries well and is a classic deer rifle and cartridge.

Good luck, Keep us posted on your progress,

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Reed:
... Remington 150 grain CoreLokt yellow/green box, average velocity = 2438, 5 shot group of 8" at 100 yards ...

Hey Paul, That brings back BAD memories. Yours shot better than the ones I had. I couldn't keep them all on an 8.5"x11" Target. Tried 6-9 from two different boxes with the same results.

Many years later I re-discovered those two partial boxes. Decided to Pull the Bullets and use them for Fire Forming in other 30cals. Found the "Bases" on those Bullets were pretty much all different. Apparently the brilliant Production Supervisor, Manager of Bullet Production(whoever) at Remington had used Die Set-Up Bullets in them to hold down the Scrap Costs.

First Loads from a Lee Loader with IMR-4320 were right at 3". They did fine for a few shots and then they needed to be FLRed. Going to the RCBS Dies and changing Powder go the Load to a Huntable level.
-----

Hey Paul, Have you "Pulled" any of those Bullets to see what they look like?

I have loaded for several 300 sav 99 I do't load max loads more the middle of the road stuff my current load push a 165 gr rem corlock at 2450 about 3 grs under max. I would have look at my load book for sure. I have shot dozens of deer with this load punchs right through them and kills them well.

My dad killed hundrnds of deer with one ,his load was the old bal-c powder with a 150 gr round nose speer mostly, it was a couple grs under max.

He said to killed a lot better then the model 64 win in 30-30 he used before the 300.

I see no reason to hot rod a fine old gun If I need mor e speed and bigger bullets I just move up to 308,06,300mag ect unitl I get what I need.

Do not hot rod it load resonable loads and you have loats of fun with it.

Pdog beat me to it but the .300Savage/99 was made to shoot a R/N bullet.
I shoot 150gr C/Ls. Not a R/N but a pretty stubby bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
To highjack this thread for a moment:

Stonecreek, you said there's no such thing as "excessive headspace". Please explain.

Thnx

In rimless rounds which headspace on the shoulder, there are only cartridges which are too short for the chamber.

I know that this is an issue of the relationship between the cartridge and the chamber, but the brass of the cartridge is MUCH easier to adapt to the length of the chamber than the chamber is to the somewhat arbitrary and often variable length of the brass.

There are several methods for doing this, but the most effective is to expand the neck a size larger than that of the cartridge in question then resized it only so much as to leave a shoulder in the proper place. Of course, you can always seat a bullet long enough to jam it into the lands to control headspace, but that methodology creates other problems.

With cases with do not or cannot headspace on a shoulder, then certainly the condition of "excessive headspace" can be said to exist, so my statement was overly broad and should only apply to bottlenecked cartridges which have sufficient shoulders upon which to headspace -- including belted and rimmed cases.

If a cartridge's measurements, from shoulder to head is shorter than the chambers measurment from shoulder to the face of the bolt, what would you call that?
I understand it can be in most cases corrected.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
If a cartridge's measurements, from shoulder to head is shorter than the chambers measurment from shoulder to the face of the bolt, what would you call that?
I understand it can be in most cases corrected.

Stated the way you stated it, I would say that the length of the cartridge's headspace is inadequate.

Had you said that the chamber is longer than the standard for the cartridges it was made for, then it would be reasonable to say, as most people do, that the chamber has "excessive headspace".

The problem is that many/most people do not understand what headspace is to begin with, nor that it is only a problem (for a handloader) if left unaddress in the loading process.

If a person is not a handloader, then "excessive headspace" is also likely not a problem: Either the headspace will be so excessive that the primer will not be ignited by the firing pin, rendering the gun "safe", or if the primer is ignited by the firing pin then the brand new cartridge case will have adequate elasticity to stretch to fill the chamber without rupturing. If you are not a handloader and simply discard cases from factory loads, what difference does it make that the case is stretched on the first and only firing?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wasbeeman:
If you are not a handloader and simply discard cases from factory loads, what difference does it make that the case is stretched on the first and only firing?

Similarly if you are a reloader you now have a case that will fit your chamber and you can reload it. Some days are just golden. roger

Dad has never had a problem with the rounds I have reloaded for his Savage 99.

Personally I would not own one. Hate the rifle myself. I would carry a Winchester 94 in 30-30 before I used a Savage 99. But that is just me.