I have a brand new Ruger M77 MkII 7 mm Rem Mag with a light barrel (to my sensibilities) for which I am trying to develop loads to use in August. It seems to have a nasty tendency to foul horribly after only six or seven shots. Those few group beautifully then it starts flinging them everywhere.

Question: In your experience is this most likely due to new barrel roughness(chrome-moly), to fouling alone, or to a too hot barrel, or some toxic combination of factors?

Any recommendations?

When breaking in a new barrel I never shot more than three shoots before wiping. I usually shot one shot and wipe for the first 20 rounds.

I also never shot a barrel until it is hot. When testing loads I usually check the temperature of the barrel after I shot a round. I stop with it starts getting very warm and do not shoot again until it has cooled down. The quickest way I know to ruin a new rifle barrel is to keep shooting a rifle after the barrel is hot.

With a light rifle barrel you will get hotter faster. I aften take other rifles with me to shoot while the other one I'm breaking in is cooling down.

Good Hunting
Steve

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Every man dies, but not every man really lives!!

As part of my new bbl (factory not custom)break in procedure I now use JB bore paste on a jag prior to firing. I have been doing it for about a year now I guess, and have tried it on 5 or 6 new guns I got in that time. This seems to work well and make for a shorter break in period

Hey Harald, Hard to say for sure what the actual problem is without a whole lot of question/answer type stuff.

It could be everything the other folks mentioned as well as the type of Bullet you are using. Some Bullet jackets are softer than others which just results in quicker fouling.

Also agree with "Bill" about using the JB Compound to slick up a bore. You will see a guy who posts as Bob338 on here occasionally who told me about using it. He also uses a Jag and a tight patch. But, I've modified the procedure slightly to use the patch wrapped around a Bore Brush and re-add JB Compound every 10 full strokes(in and out is 1 full stroke).

If the Bore is real rough, you can wear out the Bore Brush (with the JB Compound on it) in as little as 60-75 strokes. I put 300 strokes on my latest rifle. Used 3 Bore Brushes and the 3rd one did not wear down very much at all. That is because as the Bore becomes smoother, there is less of an abrasive factor working against the tips of the Brush.

You also want to do this from the Chamber end of the barrel if at all possible. And of course you can do that with your M77.

Now, that said, some of the Custom Barrel makers will "Void" their Warranty if JB Compound is used in their Barrels. So, you have to decide for yourself if you think you are doing the right thing or not. I do intend to do it on all new rifles I buy.

Good luck to you.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

I have started to do the same thing as Bill/ Hot Core, except I use Flitz. As far as I can judge, it is more agressive, but the results are a dream. 100 strokes to start with (changing patches several times), and cleaning is a dream.

I would not do this on a custom barrel, I don't think, but on a factory tube, you bet. Dutch.

Harald - Everyone is correct. We need more information. How many shots through the gun do you have?, What load and bullet are you using?, What is your cleaning procedure?, How long do you wait between shots?, How hot is the barrel on shot 7,8,& 9? Can you hold onto the barrel for any length of time? Has the gun been bedded? Have you inspected stock to barrel contact?

I tend to agree with Hot Core. I have used JB on a few factory barrels to begin the break in process. I do not begin with an aggressive approach, just 20 to 30 passes in one direction down the bore (ALWAYS USE A BORE GUIDE) This is only after I shoot a minimum of 50 to 75 rounds using a break in process - one shot and clean to 10 rounds, and 3 shots and clean to 50. If the gun is still fouling, then I break out the JB again and get more aggressive with it.

Give us some more info and I am sure someone will have an answer for you.

That is what puzzles me? What do you consider hot or too hot for a barrel? I try to not let the barrel get any warmer than I can hold in my hand continuously.

Lets see...I am attempting to develop loads for a 150 gr Swift Scirocco using RL-25. Results so far are hopeless so I am suspending that until I can get this thing to settle down. Ironically, the factory Remington 175 gr stuff I bought for sighting in the scope and break in (inadequate I see) shoots very nicely, sub-MOA on a clean, cool barrel.

Total shots fired now is a mere 36 rds. I also tend to be rather conservative in cleaning procedures so I haven't applied a bore brush or used anything approaching 100 strokes. I have used the Birchwood Casey Super Strength Bore Scrubber to get out the copper fouling (which seems rather light actually).

That said, I am not afraid of using a very fine abrasive if it will help.

As far as how hot the barrel is allowed to get, if I can't hold onto it then its way too hot. I don't mind if the thing is warm to the touch but as it approaches the temperature of hot water from a faucet (130 - 140 F) then thats too much and I let it cool. That's pretty vague I know.

Looks like I need to get me some bore paste and do a little prep work with elbow grease before I waste any more good bullets. I suppose I could fireform my brass with some junk bullets and powder.

[This message has been edited by Harald (edited 07-20-2001).]

Harald - Some ideas:

With 35 rounds, your barrel is only just beginning to be broken in. The fact that you can shoot sub MOA with factory rounds shows that the gun can shoot. Your problem lies in load development.

I have never had any luck with RL-22 or RL-25 and 7mm. I would suggest that you stick with H4831SC at or near max loads. If you have a chronograph, you can safely get 3100fps out of H-4831SC.

I would also recommend that you inspect your barrel for copper fouling. If you see copper after a normal cleaning, I would switch over to Sweets. Especially during the break in process. You are pulling more jacket material off with a rough barrel. Sweets will quickly cut through any fouling so that you are shooting a clean barrel. Shooting a clean barrel is important during break in.

I would work up the new loads as part of the break in time. Once you have 75 or so rounds through the barrel you should find cleaning much easier. Delay the JB during this period. If after 75 rounds you find no improvement, THEN hit it with JB.

Hope this helps.

Hey Harald, Looks like it is my turn to agree with ZD. Since the factory cartridges are shooting well, it does seem to be just the particular Scirocco Load.

Also have no problem at all with his recommendation to wait and see what happens after 75 shots. I just do my rifles as I get them.

I'd guess I've used 7-8 different Powders in my 7Mags and seem to have an excellent balance of accuracy and performance with H1000. Like ZD, my particular firearms just do not seem to "generally" perform as well with the Reloader Powders. No slam on them though, cause plenty of folks think they are great.

I've not shot the 150gr Scirocco bullet, so I can't compare it to other bullets I've used as far as the "softness" of the jacket. If you started a Thread on that, someone out there may be able to give you some insight on it.

Some of my rifles are extremely accurate with quite a few different brands of bullets. One of the very best "On Game" performance bullets I've used in them were the old Fred Barnes copper tubing bullets. But, after about the 5th shot, the groups always begin to open. When I look in the barrel, it is easy to see the Copper in the barrel. Other bullets just don't foul as badly as they did.

When you get ready to check how clean your barrel is "after cleaning", put a White patch on a Jag and slip it into the barrel so it is within 1" of the muzzle. Then shine a light into the barrel so you can see. The White patch will reflect the light into the grooves and let you see what is going on.

I like to make my Cleaning Patches out of "Paper Towels". The paper is slightly more abrasive than cloth patches and work well for me. You can get the Blue paper Shop Towels about anywhere (Wal-Mart, etc.), but the "blue" will hide the blue copper residue as it is removed. They do fine to start with though. Home Depot has a White paper towel made by Scott which has "Scott Rags Work Like Cloth" as a label. These are as strong as the Blue paper Shop Towels, but you can see the copper coming out real easy. Other normal kitchen brands of paper towels are a bit light weight and not as tough as those.

While you are letting your barrel "soak" in your choice of fluid, set the rifle muzzle down on a stack of newspaper. As the fluid drains, you can also see the blue copper residue on the newspaper. Follow the directions on your Bore Cleaner as to how long to let it set. Some of the real aggressive chemical cleaners do fine if you follow the directions, but can create other problems if you don't.

As a final thought, I'd recommend you do your initial Load Development with a less expensive bullet. Watch the Pressure signs as you go and record what you see. Don't just exchange the Scirocco for the "Top Load" though. You will need to work up to what the Scirocco "Top Load" is too, but it won't take nearly as long and won't be nearly as expensive.

But, I understand your time constraint of wanting to hunt with it during August. That doesn't leave time to be fooling around. It just takes me longer than that to develop a good Load and develop confidence with it at the distances I'm willing to take my shots. You might want to get a box of 150gr Win, Fed, Rem, Speer, etc. and try 9 out of each box. Clean really well between brands. Then if you do run out of time developing the Scirocco Load, you will still be able to hunt during August. All the bullets in those factory rounds will do a fine job on your Alabama Deer. Then the "pressure" is off and if you get the Scirocco Load working, good for you.

I used to live in Laceys Spring and worked at GTE when it was just across the bridge.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

Thanks guys. I too have begun to suspect the Scirocco, and that is not what I want to discover. This is supposed to be my "mountain rifle". I have a little 7mm-08 for killing South Alabama whitetails out to any distance you can see them (20 or even 30 yards!).

The copper fouling appears to be rather light. I have used a bore scope and can't see anything. Almost nothing comes out on the patches even after soaking for 20 minutes. The puzzling aspect is that the Scirocco is regarded as being a pretty accurate bullet and it does seem to shoot better until the barrel gets dirty (which also makes the Remington factory stuff misbehave). So, I dunno. Its hard for me to understand how a little carbon film can so ruin accuracy. I've never seen that happen before.

I don't want to work up loads until the thing is stable because I am mainly interested in the accuracy of each load increment. Velocity is a secondary consideration. Anything that begins with a 3 is OK, although 3100 fps is my target (and I was quite close to that without a hint of high pressure).

I've got some Speer 130s that I bought several years ago for my little 7 mm (in a fit of madness) and a bunch of leftover VV N160 (which I dislike) so I am planning to fireform my cases (I like to work with once fired cases for load development anyway) and break in the barrel with those.

After that I may try the abrasives, if time permits.

If it still doesn't shoot well I will either adopt the suggestion to try some factory loads (the 175s are good at least) or take my .340 Wby, but I had wanted to use something different because I have taken that rifle everywhere.