I am planning to hand load for my .45-70 Springfield trapdoor. After researching the subject on the internet and my reloading manuals, I have found a wide range of opinions regarding the use of fillers. I understand that you should use a wad, to protect the base of your bullet, when using black powder, but when using smokeless powder, it is not as clear. Some recommend using a filler to hold the powder next to the primer, but others say it can cause pressure spikes and barrel ringing. As it stands right now, I am leaning toward using a cotton filler between the powder and bullet.

I will be loading 405 gn Jacketed SP and 500 gn. cast bullets. Powder of choice will be Unique, RE7 or Varget. The load is for shooting paper at 100 yds.

If you load the .45-70, do you use a filler or wad and what do you use?

My shooting buddy uses a Dacron filler (pillow filling material bought at a sewing shop) when he downloads his 45/70 and seems to have good results.

There are some very extensive discussions on fillers (do a search on "dacron", "filler" etc. etc.) at:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com

I've used dacron fill in cast-bullet rifle loads for many years now, in calibers from 6.5x54 to .50-2.5" Sharps.

It's my carefully-considered opinion that a LOOSE dacron tuft is a very valuable aid to proper positioning of the charge, and more-uniform ignition. Typically, the cartridge WITH dacron will show more consistent velocities and lower extreme spreads than an identical round WITHOUT the dacron. Not always, mind you, but usually. In many cases the accuracy is better, too.

When I say "loose dacron tuft", I mean this:

I pull a tuft of the material from a big fluffy ball of the stuff, eyeballing the tuft to be a bit larger than what I think the volume of the airspace in the case above the powder might be. I then push the tuft into the case with a screwdriver or pencil or the like, and STOP pushing as soon as I feel the tool contact the powder. This usually leaves a bit of the tuft still outside the case mouth. I then tuck that remainder JUST into the case mouth, and seat the bullet. I apply ZERO pressure to the dacron during installation, and the bullet finishes the installation. Thus, there is NO open airspace inside the case, and NO pressure exerted to "tamp" or "compress" the dacron over the powder.

I've used dacron in this manner in at least a couple of dozen calibers (including the .45-70), and for well over twenty thousand rounds, with no difficulties whatever. The dacron doesn't melt, and it doesn't burn, and it isn't deposited in the bore.

I find it's an extremely valuable tool, and the vast majority of my cast-bullet rifle loads use the stuff. Only when the charge gets to 75% or so of the case volume do I not use the dacron.

quote:

Originally posted by ArtD:
I am planning to hand load for my .45-70 Springfield trapdoor. After researching the subject on the internet and my reloading manuals, I have found a wide range of opinions regarding the use of fillers. I understand that you should use a wad, to protect the base of your bullet, when using black powder, but when using smokeless powder, it is not as clear. Some recommend using a filler to hold the powder next to the primer, but others say it can cause pressure spikes and barrel ringing. As it stands right now, I am leaning toward using a cotton filler between the powder and bullet.

I will be loading 405 gn Jacketed SP and 500 gn. cast bullets. Powder of choice will be Unique, RE7 or Varget. The load is for shooting paper at 100 yds.

If you load the .45-70, do you use a filler or wad and what do you use?

I use a small tuft of cotton, about 0.1 of a grain, all fluffed up, on top of 60 grains of H4831 with a cast bullet in my .375 H&H - never had a problem with it!

You'll need some kind of "filler" if you are using Unique. I also prefer a small "tuft" of Dacron over the powder charge. If using Varget, you'll probably get close to 95% w/ a 500gr bullet. Way bach when I started CAS, the .45-70 was legal for stages so I shot a ton of 300grLFP o/ 9gr of UNique w/ the Dacron filler. You get about 900fps from a 24"bbl. & obviously there is no recoil, have fun.

IMR 3031 might also be worth a try if you have some of that. I get excellent accuracy with 40.0 grns. and a 405 cast bullet for around 1350 fps out of my 28" Sharps. I don't use any kind of filler and have never had a problem with ignition. Rojelio

I've been using 5744 in my 45-120 with up to 540 gr bullets, it shoots excellent, but I've read that IMR SR4759 provides more consistent velocities and doesn't leave the unburned powder in the bore that does happen with the 5744. As far as powder position, the 5744 makes no difference where the powder is, I still get 1½" groups at 100yds with an aperture sight, and approx 40grs only fills the case less than half full. FWIW, Hodgdon specifically state not to use any fillers with the loads that I have used for this caliber, I haven't used any reduced loads for my 45-70s yet, though. Accurate simply states that fillers are not necessary with their load data for 5744.

Tim

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/lrrd.php#45-120

http://accuratepowder.com/data/5744.htm

http://www.imrpowder.com/sr4759.html

I use only Varget in my 45-70 without any fillers at all. The load density is quite good, and just haven't seen the need. The book max for trapdoors is 50.0 gr Varget with a 405 gr bullet, and this gives you a fairly full case, and for me, good accuracy/velocity.

Artd
I have great results with 27 gr. of AA5744 over a Lee 405 gr. as cast(hand lubed wheel weight) in my Rolling Block. This still gives Trapdoor velocities and pressures. My accuracy is fantastic. My Rolling Block is from Navy Arms as an action and was barrelled by the now defunct Virgin Valley Custom Guns. I believe this is a couple of grains below maximum for Trapdoors and Rolling blocks. I am going to try it on Whitetails back home when we get back to the Mainland next year.

Steve E........

There are a number of poowders out there which are reputed to be "position insensitive". Among these are 5744 and 2400, among others. (I've been burning so much 5744 that the store where I once had to special-order the stuff now carries it as a stock item....nice guys!)

I must have some hidden Missouri roots, that being the "Show Me!" State, because I often find myself testing a lot of these Great Truths where "everybody KNOWS that...."

I have routinely been testing cast-bullet loads with 5744 and 2400, both with and without dacron filler in otherwise-identical loads. These are side-by-side tests fired in the same shooting session. This sort of testing has been carried out for quite a few years and I still do it today. While both 2400 and 5744 do perform quite nicely without dacron fill, even up to and including monster cases like the .416 Rigby, in most loads these powders do BETTER if dacron is used. The velocities are usually up a little higher, and extreme velocity spread and standard deviation are generally reduced. In addition, they tend to group better, as well.

These results are NOT absolutes, and the only way to find if the fill benefits a particular load is try it with-and-without. With cast bullets, the costs of loading two batches of test loads are so low that it really doesn't matter, so I just enjoy loading and shooting twice as many rounds!

Don't believe all the "everybody knows" tales. With due caution and careful working up, try the different possibilities for yourself. Never say "never", and never say "always".

Use Black powder with no filler; problem solved


L to R 22 Hornet, 50/90, 50/70, 45/70, 40/65, 577/450 & 30/30

I agree with with BAW. Your rifle will shoot best with black powder. Use about 70 gr of FFg and compress with a compression die to a level your bullet and wad will sit. Use a 500 - 540gr
cast postell bullet and let the fun begin.

ArtD .. I haven't worked with the .45-70 trapdoor for about 35 years .. but if I remember correctly - I loaded with 305 gr jacketed bullet with 2400 and cream of wheat as filler .. it worked great .. I still have some of those loaded shells, maybe I should see if they still shoot .. my trapdoor Springfield is an original and is hanging over the mantle .. I don't hunt with it because it's just too much hardware to haul out in the woods .. ( and I'm an old guy) .. good luck at the range .. the trap door is fun to shoot .. mb

Guys,

Thanks for all the great feedback. I have alot of information to digest. I will take a serious look at 2400 and 5744.

Here's a thread that may help ya out...

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=66284

One thing to bear in mind - those trapdoor barrels are made of much softer steel than today's barrels - if I were you, I wouldn't shoot jacketed bullets in them, just castand lubed stuff. Bore wear will be MUCH higher with the jacketed stuff...

Looks like most of it is covered but I will throw in my 2-cents.

Use cast bullets, jacketed will damage the bore in time. You will find that accuracy falls off. The steel is too soft for jacketed bullets.

Use onlu black powder, use a drop tube, compress it 1/8-1/4-inch. Use 2F.

Use SPG or simmilar BP lube with soft bullets sporting generous grease grooves. Lee makes a mould for a HB 405 gr bullet that works great. Many trapdoors have an oversized bore. You will need the bullet to bump up to fill the grooves. BP and soft bullets are best for this.

Fillers........using fillers is a crap shoot. You may never have a problem, you might ring the chamber first shot. If fillers are such a great idea why is it that no factory produced ammo use fillers? I never use fillers, ever.

I see it this way, why not shoot it with ammo it was intended for? I figure it is best to use the ammo a rifle was originally designed for. Your trapdoor is a black powder cartridge rifle, treat it as such.

Shooting black powder is not as much bother as you think. It is actually easy and fun.

If you want a smokeless 45-70 get a modern gun.

Maybe I missed it, but I do not see mentioned The Book from Wolf's Western Traders, Loading Cartridges for the Original .45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine by Spence and Pat Wolf. ($19.95) Your gun is worth the investment.
One thing to note is that Spence stressed the need for a soft lead bullet because of the chamber-bore relationship.
More than abrasion from the jacketed bullets, mischief arises from the gas blowby when hard bullets do not bump up to full groove diameter to seal gas pressure.
I urge you to look at the book.
Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross