Hey guys,

I hate to bring this up again, but here goes. I cannot seem to get the bullets to seat consistently at the same depth. I am trying to find the most accurate depth for my ar15, and when I seat the bullets I am getting +-.015" differnce in length without adjusting the seating die. I bought a comparator to measure length at the ogive and I am still getting the error. The point of the bullet does not contact the die nor the inside of the comparator. When I measure the bullets themselves with the comparator they only have a +-.002" error. The bullet OAL error is .020". Here is what I am using:

1. Rem. Brass
2. cci small rifle primers
3. 68 BTHP Match bullets (Hornady)
4. 25.0 grs. VARGET
5. LEE reloader press (Cheap I know, but I get worse results with Dillon 550)
6. LEE Dies

HELP PLEASE!!! I Just want reliable seating depth. What am I doing wrong?

Try shoving a bullet into a fired case. I'm wondering if you may be fighting donuts. Just a guess.

I am not sure what you mean by "Fighting donuts", but they just fall into the fired case.

Lighten up! You're working too hard.

I just measured ten of my Hornady 75gr BTHP bullets and found that the difference was +/- .010" in some bullets.

The bullet length of many manufacturers vary quite a bit. The ovige is usually pretty close.

Use the comparator to get a OAL off the ogive. Forget about trying to get a consistent OAL off a loaded round. If you try a OAL off the ogive AND a loaded round you'll just drive yourself mad.

FWIW, I seat my 75gr bullets .010" shorter than mag length and load them up.

ZM

quote:

Originally posted by Markhpb:
I am not sure what you mean by "Fighting donuts", but they just fall into the fired case.

A donut is the accumulation of brass (due to flow) at the juncture of the case's neck and shoulder. It can interfere with deeply seated bullets if not removed. As I said, just a guess, but apparently not the problem.

In what way are your results with the Dillon worse? Same seating problem?

Yes, still the same seating problem, just to worse tolerances.

Mark,
I had the same thing happen to me. I tried different dies, but no relief. I finally got a micrometer seating die with a little window that one places the bullet in to seat. I am sorry, but I can't remember the name of the company that makes it. This pretty well solved the problem, but it is my belief that the seating stems on regular or even target dies have sufficient variance and ogives have sufficient variance that together they create the condition we experienced. Kudude

Vickerman made the original windowed seating die. RCBS is currently making a similar design. The window is convenient for smaller bullets.

IMHO obsessing over hundreths of an inch is a waste of time. Load up 69 grain SMKs with 24.5 grains of WW748 (or Varget), seat so they feed in the magazine, and go shoot 1 1/2 groups at 200 yards. My Colt HBAR does just that and it is a bog standard rifle. Your 68 gr Hornady's may do the same, but to be quite honest I have found that Hornady's do not shoot as well as the SMKs in my 223, 308 and 300WM rifles. YMMV.
Peter.

It is not just a few thousanths I am having a problem with. I am getting .030" swing between the short and long. I am sure most of you that load for accuracy ar doing much better than this. All I want to know is how?

I've had some seating dies that seem to grasp the bullet and pull it out a bit when raising the press handle. It could be due to the long, gently tapered heavy for caliber bullets. Try a Redding Sompetition seating die. Also, you might not have enough neck tension. The outside diameter of the necks should be at least .001" smaller than on loaded rounds. .002 is better. Redding makes a bushing die to get it just right. Order the correct sized bushing. See Sinclair catalog.

Markhpb

You are seating the bullets consistantly. The OAL of bullets varies, especially with match type bullets. The important measurement to consistant seating is the one your comparator is giving you. Your dies are seating off the ogive not the tip of the bullet. Thus the comparator measures off the ogive. Your bullets are seated fine. If they funtion through the magazine or are seated long for LR shooting and function, stop worrying and go shooting. The vairence in OAL is a non-issue.

Larry Gibson

quote:

I hate to bring this up again, but here goes. I cannot seem to get the bullets to seat consistently at the same depth. I am trying to find the most accurate depth for my ar15, and when I seat the bullets I am getting +-.015" differnce in length without adjusting the seating die. I bought a comparator to measure length at the ogive and I am still getting the error. The point of the bullet does not contact the die nor the inside of the comparator. When I measure the bullets themselves with the comparator they only have a +-.002" error. The bullet OAL error is .020". Here is what I am using:

Mark; I read your post and DO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE USING THE OGIVE TO CASE HEAD MEASUREMENT- nothing to do with COAL, and you should not have this much variation. When loading for the 308 I had similar problems but not nearly as bad as you show, I was getting approx .005 variation between rounds using a comparator and ogive to head length, about twice what the nosler comp bullets showed on same comparator. So this is what I did, I bought a Hornady seater die with the micrometer adjustment and seated each and every bullet to the exact-as close as I could get- same ogive to case head measurement, I could see no appreciable difference in accuracy out to 300 yards, but mine were nowhere as far off as yours, and varying jump to lands .020-.030 of an inch will make a diffence in your accuracy. What I would do is unscrew the top of the lee die, dump the seater stem out, chuck a bullet up in drill press and give a light coating of lapping compound, spin the bullet and use it to lap the seater stem, then clean it up really good and very lightly oil, I'm guessing here that the stem has some rough spot or rough enough finish it is gripping your bullet on withdrawal from the seater die. I would also check to see if the stem is so undersized that it is just flopping around in the die bore, although it still should find it's own center, but maybe not with a burr inside. Also I don't know what comparator you use, but the sinclair I use can be tricky to get a good measurement, you have to watch for rough headstamps and bent rims on the brass, especially on a gas gun.Then you should make sure your sizer die is giving you enough neck tension, and also that the lock ring on your seater die is tight enough against the rubber o-ring, that could let your die float up and down changing you seating deoth-the deoth yyou are measuring from ogive to case head.
Other than that the only other thing I would do is TRY SOME OF THE 2520 POWDER YOU HAD ON HAND BEFORE YOU STARTED THIS LOADING PROJECT

OK; I just went and loaded 5 rounds of 308 with Sierra MK 168 bullets, I loaded these with RCBS STD SEATER die/ didnot use Horn Mic setup- to see what kind of variation I get when running them thru the comparator:
3.241
3.240
3.240
3.239
3.241 .002" variation
those MK are some good bullets, now many years ago when I got this new gizzmo, I ran hundreds of unloaded bullets thru it, rem CL were the worst for ogive position on the bullets, then Speer HC, Win PP, Horn, Sierra and Nosler Comp were the most consistant of the lots I tried.[IMG:left] [/IMG]

I got to thinking about this a little, are you using bullets out of the same lot/ I know you said that bullets only vary .002 but sometimes people bust a new box open and continue loading and never check? Lot to lot variations can be quite large, and usually even the cheapest bullets from same lot are close, that is why the bulk Rem CL show such large variations- they come from many different lots. So just to see I went and took loaded hunting ammo out and ran them thru the comparator, they all happened to be Sierra bullets because I wanted ammo loaded on different dies for comparison.

300 RUM/200 grain Sierra bt
LOADED IN HORNADY DIES/Rock Chuck press
3.977
3.974
3.980
3.975
3.978 .006 variation

7mm RM/160 Sierra bt
LOADED IN LEE DIES/R Chuck press
3.698
3.699
3.700
3.700
3.698 .002 variation

So yes you definately have a problem, borrow or buy a 223 seater and try again, maybe Lee dropped the wrong stem in at the factory.

Sounds like you are chasing your tail and bouncing all over the place...you need to fall back and restart the process.

If you are using the Lee seater with the rubber Oring, toss the locking ring and use one from any die that DOESN'T use an Oring...it is impossible to get consistent seating or return to a specific point with that damned Oring. There is nothing wrong with the seater otherwise...I use them all the time with good success... otherwise buy a Forester Ultra seater and solve the problem once and for all, plus end up with much more uniform ammo.

The best way to work through a problem...ANY problem is to pick a start point, do ONE change at a time and write good notes.

Once you get the seater die set up with good lock rings pull the seater stem, use a magnifying glass and good light to check the inside of the stem for burrs or anything weird, then check the bullet point IN the stem to see where it hits the bullet ogive. The stem taper could be short or not deep enough and the bullet tip is doing the pushing NOT the Ogive...therefore you are using the variation in the bullet tip to seat the bullet...NOT the OPgive...it is more common than not with a long taper pointed bullet...then you can have a machine shop make you a new seater stem or use an meplat trimmer to get you bullet noses uniform...I would use the trimmer because it solves more problems and give you uniform length bullets...or better yet follow my suggestion and buy a Forester Ultra AND the meplat trimmer.

Make sure all the pieces and parts of the reloading press run true, you don't have guck in, around and on the shell holder...too many people let "stuff" accumulate in the annulus where the case base sits, on top of the shell holder, under the shell holder and on top of the press ram.

Take a handfull of bullets and measure the Ogive and seperate them into groups...then measure each bullet in each group overall length and seperate again. It might take a whole box to get 5 bullets with the same ogive point and OAL.

Take those 5 bullets and seat them using the modified Lee seater OR a Forester Ultra Seater.

THEN...measure the Ogive points.

By now you should have eliminated almost all variation that could be attributed to seater stem, Ogive, press variations and seater dies.

Don't go nuts over a couple thou varience, all it will do is make you into an anal retetive, neurotic jerk water...nothing is perfect.

My best suggestion and what I would do right from the gitgo is buy a Forester Ultra seater...I have 4 bodies that cover all cartridges from Hornet to Rum cases...all you have to do then is to buy the slider and seating stem for ANY cartridge and swap them around...about 20 bucks for the slider and 10 for the stem and I think there are only 4 different stems to cover all calibers and cartridges (not exactly sure on this). I just order a new slider and possibly a seating stem whenever I get a new cartridge to play with. The Ultra is cheap over time compared to buying a new seater for each cartridge...and Redding Bushing dies are even cheaper...one sizer die covers several families of cases and all you do is change bushings. Lee collet dies are also very good investments and I have at least a dozen...some of my most uniform ammo, 17 Rem, 223 Rem, and 308 Rem comes from using Lee collet sizers and Ultra seaters.

You are working with an AR15...NOT a benchrest rifle...no matter if it has a "match barrel"...it isn't a "match" rifle although you can get a good HBar to shoot tiny groups if you work at it...all the ones I've worked with responded to minimal work...on the rifle AND ammo.

ALL bullets have differences in ogives...I've measured 3 different lengths in one box of Hornady 7mm 120 VMaxs so now I measure and seperate every box of bullets I buy...most boxes only have a few out of range and I can measure them while watching the TV without loosing track of either the plot or the bullet range.

This isn't rocket science, but it does take a bit of thought and logical thinking to work through any problem that comes up. You have to be realistic in the level of expected accuracy and take your time working through the process.

There are many very good ideas on this forum and other forums that can help you get through this little bump in the road.

Two very good places to start learning are

Precision Rifle
http://www.freewebs.com/precisionrifle/accuracyarticles.htm

and

6mm BR
http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html

Check them out.

'Njoy

quote:

Sounds like you are chasing your tail and bouncing all over the place...you need to fall back and restart the process.

If you are using the Lee seater with the rubber Oring, toss the locking ring and use one from any die that DOESN'T use an Oring...it is impossible to get consistent seating or return to a specific point with that damned Oring.

7mm RM/160 Sierra bt
LOADED IN LEE DIES/R Chuck press
3.698
3.699
3.700
3.700
3.698 .002 variation
These are Lee stock dies with the rubber O-ring, look real consistant to me. I don't think he's bouncing anywhere, loaded some ammo and ran it through a comparator and found he had a problem, then asked for help/ suggestions. Once he gets it figured out he won't need the comparator, or just use it to check a few to build his confidence.

Forster's Bench Rest seater is the same as the Ultra but without the micrometer, in the event that you are considering this route but would appreciate the economy.

hey guys,

Thanx for all of the advise. I have not had a chance to fire the new load, but I got the depth issue figured out I think. I don't know what could have possible been wrong with my lee press but it was the problem. I tried the seating die in my Dillon 550 and set the die to the shortest of the rounds I had already created. The result was an error of +-.002". I am OK with that, as it is much better than the results I was getting. I don't know why, but the cheap LEE press works just fine on my .308s and 30-06s. I guess it just doesn't like .223, but the dillon did.

Let'see, the question begs to be asked, you've got about $25.00 tied up in the cheap Lee press. How much you got tied up in the Dillon??

You might be working to hard at this. If your ar has a mill. std chamber the throat is much longer than the magazine. I can't go much past 2.255 oal before I have feeding issues with some magazines. Max oal to throat for most bullets in my rifle is 2.3-something. I set my seater so the longest rounds are 2.255 and let it go. They will vary from about 2.250-2.255.
C.G.B.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:


Once you get the seater die set up with good lock rings pull the seater stem, use a magnifying glass and good light to check the inside of the stem for burrs or anything weird, then check the bullet point IN the stem to see where it hits the bullet ogive.

'Njoy

I agree with this step
I called Forster years ago about .224" bullets getting stuck in the seater.
They sent me a new seater stem.
Under the microscope there was a tiny burr on the edge of the de burring cut on both seater stems.
I polished off his burr with fine wet and dry paper while spinning the stem, and told Forster about it.

Years later, I bought another Forster seater with the same problem, and gave it the same fix.