I've found some interesting reading on the internet about bullet run out. Some blame the use of a Dillon (for example) for excessive run out citing the loose shell plate and the removable die fixture as the culprit. Those same folks recommend buying a Bonanza CoAx press to alleviate this situation. But yet, the CoAx has a loose fitting die mount and floating shellholder jaws? See where I'm going with this? Now take it a step further, the cheap ole Lee Turret press has the same floating die mount, ie the turret, and yes, I've loaded some of the most accurate rifle ammo on it I've ever shot, and it had the least run out.
Marketing, it's all in the marketing, we're trained to think a $200 press will work better than a $50 press.
I've also heard folks recommend the old standard RockChucker as a solution to the run out problem. I'd be more worried about the unforgiving nature of a solid "O" frame press, that does not allow the die, or shellholder to float, not giving accurate run out. You're depending on the press alignment to be perfect, then the dies you buy to be perfect, and shellholder to be perfect. We all know manufacturing tolerances are what they are, and this can almost never happen. I would suggest this is where most of the run out problems come from.

My rockchucker is 13 years old and still makes ammo with perfect runnout if I get the expander ball tuned to the middle of the die.

Bobby, I believe it can be demostrated that your accesment of a press vs. concentric ammo is correct and have been making that argument for years.

The most likly effect of a tightly fitted conventional press is limited to causing problems, not fixing them. In fact, taking it a step beyond your astute observations, note that BR shooters use hand held dies and arbor presses in which nothing is held in threaded alignment!

Why not? Well, consider that our cases are round and the hole in the dies are too. If that round case is allowed to go into that round hole without interference, concentricity will not be assured. But ANY hard misalignment between the angle of the ram vs. the threaded hole in the press will bend the case and concentricity will be degraded.

The job of a press is simple. All it has to do is push the case into and withdraw it from the die. They all do that, so there is no magic in the color of a press. Within those limited tasks, it is, as you observe, actually better if the die and case rim have a bit of loosness so proper case-die alignment can occur unimpeded. That means that a well-worn ram, loose shell holder and loose die has a better chance of making quality ammo than a new press with a tightly locked-down die!

Having everything tight won't hurt IF it is all very precisely aligned but it won't help either. Proper alignment WILL happen unless it's actually prevented by a rigid but poor fit.

I like my Rockchucker mostly for reforming cases. It has the strength to do that but several others will do it just as well. I mean the Lyman, Redding, Hornady, Lee (Classic Cast), etc.. presses are just as strong and will last just as long as my RC.

But, none of them do as consistantly well as the Forser/Bonanza "Co-Ax" for the reasons you mention, because it alone allows the die and case to drift into proper alignment easily!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
Bobby, I believe it can be demostrated that your accesment of a press vs. concentric ammo is correct and have been making that argument for years.

The most likly effect of a tightly fitted conventional press is limited to causing problems, not fixing them. In fact, taking it a step beyond your astute observations, note that BR shooters use hand held dies and arbor presses in which nothing is held in threaded alignment!

Why not? Well, consider that our cases are round and the hole in the dies are too. If that round case is allowed to go into that round hole without interference, concentricity will not be assured. But ANY hard misalignment between the angle of the ram vs. the threaded hole in the press will bend the case and concentricity will be degraded.

The job of a press is simple. All it has to do is push the case into and withdraw it from the die. They all do that, so there is no magic in the color of a press. Within those limited tasks, it is, as you observe, actually better if the die and case rim have a bit of loosness so proper case-die alignment can occur unimpeded. That means that a well-worn ram, loose shell holder and loose die has a better chance of making quality ammo than a new press with a tightly locked-down die!

Having everything tight won't hurt IF it is all very precisely aligned but it won't help either. Proper alignment WILL happen unless it's actually prevented by a rigid but poor fit.

I like my Rockchucker mostly for reforming cases. It has the strength to do that but several others will do it just as well. I mean the Lyman, Redding, Hornady, Lee (Classic Cast), etc.. presses are just as strong and will last just as long as my RC.

But, none of them do as consistantly well as the Forser/Bonanza "Co-Ax" for the reasons you mention, because it alone allows the die and case to drift into proper alignment easily!

You guys cite float as cure when you have never checked a lock ring to see if it is square or flat. Try checking a few lock rings.
All shell holders have some clearance that permits the cartridge case to float a little.
Aligning on the threads of a die is much more accurate than aligning on the face of a lock ring that may not be square...

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
Aligning on the threads of a die is much more accurate than aligning on the face of a lock ring that may not be square...

Good reason to use Bonanza Lock rings instead of just anything that will slide in...................DJ

quote:

note that BR shooters use hand held dies and arbor presses in which nothing is held in threaded alignment!

This is simply false. Us BR shooters use threaded presses for the sizing operation and an arbor press for seating. You will see everything from custom presses to $50 RCBS presses in the reloading area at a BR match. What you see little of is factory dies, espescially FL sizing dies. For the most consistent ammo possible, the sizing die must size the case to just under chamber dimensions, and the sizing die should be cut with the same reamer that was used to cut the rifles chamber. Obviosly a crooked press won't help matters but the sizing die is the biggest culprit of runout, with expander balls making things even worse. You will see only bushing style dies at a BR match.

First, what in my original post makes you think I haven't checked lock rings for flatness? Assuming using an off square lock ring, the Lee turret, (for expample) would move/tip/flex (whatever you want to call it) and help to "auto-align" the case with the die centerline.

Second, most benchresters I've seen who are serious, use arbor presses and Wilson dies (for expample). Maybe there's others using conventional presses, but I'd be they're had them checked for concentricity in some way, or using dies of special manufacture to alleviate this situation.

"float" in a press is only good if the case fit in the die is the only thing influencing the floating. On a progressive press, there are other dies and other cases influencing the floating shell plate and die plate (if so equipped).

Also, if the plane of the shell holder is not normal to the axis of the die, and if the travel of the ram is not coincident, or at least parallel, with the axis of the die, no amount of float will correct that.

Bobby, since you obviosly don't shoot BR, We would have to take anything you say about BR shooters and BR shooting with a grain of salt. I can assure you that if you show up to the SuperShoot in a few months you will see that you are incorrect that BR shooters size with a Wilson style neck die on an arbor press. I am a very serious COMPETITIVE BR shooter that sees what happens at the matches. There was a time when neck sizing was the rule, but those days are gone. The vast majority of BR shooters run far too high pressures to only neck size. We FL size every time in conventional threaded presses just like the average reloader uses. Most use custom made presses that are of higher quality than the off the shelf presses, but some still opt for the Redding, RCBS, Lyman, and Forster presses. I imagine all BR shooters check the concentricity of their loaded rounds, but how often does this need to be done? Only when you get your new dies set up or chamber a new barrel. If the press and dies are making rounds with little to no runnout, what does it matter what kind of press it is?

Pointblank is entirely correct. Don't blame the press if you are size the dickens out of the brass and forcing an expander plug back out. No press on earth can keep a case straight when you do that.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
Bobby, I believe it can be demostrated that your accesment of a press vs. concentric ammo is correct and have been making that argument for years.

The most likly effect of a tightly fitted conventional press is limited to causing problems, not fixing them. In fact, taking it a step beyond your astute observations, note that BR shooters use hand held dies and arbor presses in which nothing is held in threaded alignment!

Why not? Well, consider that our cases are round and the hole in the dies are too. If that round case is allowed to go into that round hole without interference, concentricity will not be assured. But ANY hard misalignment between the angle of the ram vs. the threaded hole in the press will bend the case and concentricity will be degraded.

The job of a press is simple. All it has to do is push the case into and withdraw it from the die. They all do that, so there is no magic in the color of a press. Within those limited tasks, it is, as you observe, actually better if the die and case rim have a bit of loosness so proper case-die alignment can occur unimpeded. That means that a well-worn ram, loose shell holder and loose die has a better chance of making quality ammo than a new press with a tightly locked-down die!

Having everything tight won't hurt IF it is all very precisely aligned but it won't help either. Proper alignment WILL happen unless it's actually prevented by a rigid but poor fit.

I like my Rockchucker mostly for reforming cases. It has the strength to do that but several others will do it just as well. I mean the Lyman, Redding, Hornady, Lee (Classic Cast), etc.. presses are just as strong and will last just as long as my RC.

But, none of them do as consistantly well as the Forser/Bonanza "Co-Ax" for the reasons you mention, because it alone allows the die and case to drift into proper alignment easily!

Exactly!

Probably the most common misconception in relloading currently is the idea the case must be held rigid.

The ram is not in precise alignment with the shellholder. The shellholder and ram are not in precise alignment when the hole where the die goes is drilled. The threads are not in precise alignment with the hole, etc. The only thing that really counts is the interior dimensions of the die. We WANT slop in the shell holder so the case will FOLLOW into the die.

The best analogy I can think of is the BR shooters and the K&M HANDHELD neck turning tool. Most BR shooters chuck the case up in a drill or lathe and hold the K&M tool in their hand, which allows their hand to follow any out-of-concentricity created. The K&M tool then cuts the walls of the neck to whatever thickness desired.

A Forster type tool w/neck turner holds both ends rigid--but the pilot is not perfect, and different thickness in the walls causes the case to "wobble", while the cutter is being held rigid. This can acutally make case wall thickness more inconsistent. Same thing applies when running a case into a sizing die--or a seating for that matter.

Although the CO-AX is a great press, a regular press with a regular ol' shellholder allows the "slop" for a case to "self align" as it slides into the die.

Hope I made sense....

Casey

I forgot to mention, Ireload2 has a point about the die rings being flat. If the die is "cocked" too much no amount of float is going to correct itself.

Ireload2, what is your method of checking/correcting the die ring or misalignment of threads?

Casey

This is an interesting debate, and although I don't have nearly the experience of many of you guys, I can't help but throwing in my two cents worth.

The first step is to confirm that your dies, press, shell holder and lockrings are all true and/or square, which is easy enough to do- just set everything up, push the ram up until the shellholder contacts the body of the die and then use a flashlight on the back side to look for any gaps. If you see gaps you need to start swapping components out until you can determine where the problem is. I've never had a problem with my press, but if it turned out that the ram was not square with the die seating surface I'd return it. Same thing if the die threads aren't in line with the bore, ship it back.

Where I usually have problems is with the lockrings, a problem that can often be resolved by flipping the ring over. FWIW I use Hornady lock rings almost exclusively now, as they have been consistently flat and true for me, although I do occassionally use the Lee rings with rubber insert for some setups that are ALMOST square and that I just can't get right any other way.

Assuming your equipment checks out be sure to square you die to your press. This requires full contact with the shellholder, which can create its own set of problems if it oversizes your brass (relative to your chamber). The only answer that I've come up with is the use of Redding competition shellholders.

I was able to trace most of my problems with out of round loads to the expander ball. My preferred solution is to take it out of the equation by using a Redding body die followed by a Lee collet die for sizing, but I don't have this combo for every round I load for. I was never able to master the art of centering an expander, so if I'm using a conventional sizing die I put a rubber o-ring under the nut on the stem, which allows it to float. I also lubricate the inside of the neck with powdered mica.

quote:

Originally posted by belaw:
This is an interesting debate, and although I don't have nearly the experience of many of you guys, I can't help but throwing in my two cents worth.

IMHO, I guess the first step is to confirm that your dies, press, shell holder and lockrings are all true and/or square, which is easy enough to do- just set everything up, push the ram up until the shellholder contacts the body of the die and then use a flashlight on the back side to look for any gaps. If you see gaps you need to start swapping components out until you can determine where the problem is. I've never had a problem with my press, but if it turned out that the ram was not square with the die seating surface I'd return it. Same thing if the die threads aren't in line with the bore, ship it back.

Where I usually have problems is with the lockrings, a problem that can often be resolved by flipping the ring over. FWIW I use Hornady lock rings almost exclusively now, as they have been consistently flat and true for me, although I do occassionally use the Lee rings with rubber insert for some setups that are ALMOST square and that I just can't get right any other way.

Assuming your equipment checks out be sure to square you die to your press. This requires full contact with the shellholder. This can create its own set of problems if it oversizes your brass. The only answer that I've come up with is the use of Redding competition shellholders.

I was able to trace most of my problems with out of round loads to the expander ball. My preferred solution is to take it out of the equation by using a Redding body die followed by a Lee collet die for sizing, but I don't have this combo for every round I load for. I was never able to master the art of centering an expander, so if I'm using a conventional sizing die I put a rubber o-ring under the nut on the stem, which allows it to float. I also lubricate the inside of the neck with powdered mica.

I have enough dies (way too many dies actually) and sigle stage presses that I dedicate a set of dies to each rifle and only load that rifle/die combo on a particular press.

I crank the die ring down very tight on the press (flipping rings over is a good method of finding the best alignment) with big pliers and a piece of rubber to protect the ring.

But....this does not resolve the issue (and it is not uncommon) if the CENTERLINE of the ram, shellholder, die hole, and interior demensions of die, are not aligned. Obviously, the alignment cannot be perfect, but, if there is some slop in how the case is held, the case aligns itself PERFECTLY with the interior demensions of the die (provided everything is semi-reasonably in line). That's the horizontal plane. on the vertical plane the same idea applies, if everything is halfway close, the slop will allow the case to orient itsef as it follows the interior die demensions.

For light sizing the O-ring can work, but the O-ring can allow the die to tilt as more pressure is applied--and it may tilt more that the slop can make up for.

You and other posters are right from my experience--the expander ball is the biggest variable, and focusing on getting the expander right brings the most benefit.

Casey

Casey

If you're not a benchrester, then simple off the shelf equipment is all you need to get very concentric cartridges.

But you DO get what you pay for.

The Forster Coax is by far the best press, period. It is solid, and as stated above the principle of floating dies AND the floating shellholder does help in concentricity. Use their locking rings.

Second, Redding type "S" neck dies with bushings (which also "float") are a great adjunct to the CoAx.

Third, if you use boat tails, remove the expander button, you don't need it.

Finally, use competition seater dies (I use Reddings).

AND DON'T BUY CHEAP BRASS.

I like RWS and Lapua, and Norma in calibers those others don't make/can't find.

P.S. I use all the above, with .001 in neck tension on my cartridges (.007 though on my 340 Wby), don't expand and get under .001in runout, and my loads usually don't range/vary out of single digit fps in velocity.

quote:

Third, if you use boat tails, remove the expander button, you don't need it.

I found if I remove the expander from a die that causes me runout problems and size then replace the expander and run it just far enough into the case to expand the mouth it doesn`t add runout to the resized case. The removal of the expander will usually cut runout in half this way. For some reason pushing the expander in the case mouth doesn`t seem to cause the neck to move off center as dragging it out of the mouth does. Flat base bullets have enough radius to their base to seat OK without running the ball back in the case but I prefer to do it unless useing boat-tails as the above poster noted.
I don`t need the expander to deprime as I deprime everything with a universal decapping die before tumbling anyway.

For what it's worth there is no doubt in my mind that you can get normal fl dies to make 80% of your ammo at under .002" runnout by tuning them to get the expander ball in the middle of the die.
If you have a good shooting rifle there is also no doubt in my mind that ammo from FL dies can shoot at 1/2 moa with the RIGHT POWDER, BULLET, SEATING DEPTH. If you are benchresting or good enough (AND PRACTICE ENOUGH) to do the long range hunting thing....ie past 500 yds then maybe this isn't good enough. BUT it is good enough for 98% of mere mortal hunters in the REAL WORLD. Here's a post from a tactical shooter who does normal prep to cases....doesn't check them for runnout....and doesn't even clean the cases....and steps out to the range and shoots 2.5" groups at 500 yds.

http://www.snipershide.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cg..._topic&f=13&t=005489

Not that it matters but I lathe turned all my lock rings square to its die. Didn't see much difference in the ammo but I like the idea that I have removed one small variable.

I don't like the idea of using a bullet to expand the necks sized by my conventional dies. Rather than stretch and tilt my case necks with a conventonal expander ball, I use Lyman's "M" expanders for all accuracy loads. That did make a significant difference in concentricity!

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
For what it's worth there is no doubt in my mind that you can get normal fl dies to make 80% of your ammo at under .002" runnout by tuning them to get the expander ball in the middle of the die.
If you have a good shooting rifle there is also no doubt in my mind that ammo from FL dies can shoot at 1/2 moa with the RIGHT POWDER, BULLET, SEATING DEPTH. If you are benchresting or good enough (AND PRACTICE ENOUGH) to do the long range hunting thing....ie past 500 yds then maybe this isn't good enough. BUT it is good enough for 98% of mere mortal hunters in the REAL WORLD.

I mostly agree. Interior demensions of the die, paying attention to the expander, and the bullet are the biggest factors in a accurate load.

Casey

OK, let me add some NUMBERS to this discussion.

I use a $30 (second hand) RCBS Jr2 press to neck size and a Wilson straight line die to seat.

I had a friend MEASURE the perpendicularity of the axis of the NECK of the cartridge to the base on a coordinate measuring machine (CMM). It, for the length of the neck was under 0.001".

Then using the Wilson seater I routinely get runout of 0.001 to .002" without outside neck turning (.308 Win, .30-06 and .221).

Why is the hell is there all this talk about getting the expander ball set up in the right spot in the die. GET RID OF THE EXPANDER BALL. Why is this so hard to understand? A concentric die that utilizes bushings so that you can CONTROL the amount of neck tension you're using is all that is needed. If you don't need the extra variable of pulling the unsupported case accross an expander ball, WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU KEEP DOING IT. If the die is strait, and the neck and body of the case are sized at the same time, then all will be strait when it is withdrawn from the die.

You know...I have to laugh at myself and others who chase this concentricity thing. When you put the cartridge on the gauge and the needle swings "high to low" .003" it looks pretty dramatic cause that damn needle is swinging about 1/2". NOW GO TAKE YOUR CALIPER AND CLAMP ONTO A PIECE OF TYPING PAPER...it will measure .003". SO you total high to low based on the axis of the case is 1/2 the thickness of that piece of typing paper....NOT THE 1/2" THE DAMN NEEDLE SWINGS ON YOUR CONCENTRICITY GAUGE.
How crazy are we thinking this matters to the normal hunting rifle??? (Again....there will be small match winning diffs to the bencherest crowd...and perhaps very small diff's to the long range guys). If you think you are going to do your hunting at under 500 yds.....it just ain't gonna matter anywhere near as much as bullet choice, powder charge, and seat depth.
Although people seem to think .001-.003" runnout makes a differnce in some of there hunting rifles out there.....I think it's more in the head than the real facts will bear out.

Regarding why I would use an expander ball....

Because it is perfectly round and pulling it through the case neck will make the hole the bullet will go into perfectly round. AND if it doesn't pull the neck off center what have I lost??

On the other hand if you do not have neck turned or perfect brass like lapua and have varying neck thickness......and you use a bushing die.....well then you just pushed your thickness variation to the hole the bullet is going into..now the bullet will seat into a hole that is not perfectly round.

That is why I would do it but your mileage may vary.

In short...you may get great concentrictiy on the outside of your neck with a bushing die...but might not get as good of concentricity on the inside of the case mouth and you are now using the bullet as an expander.

I do admit that bushing dies allow you to play with varying neck tension and thats probably a good thing.
FL dies are NOT EVIL IF TUNED....and will save time and build very good ammo.

Kraky, you are 100% correct about hunting rifles not needing low runout numbers. Hell 99% of the factory hunting rifles are not even capable of being able to tell the difference. This thread wasn't started with the distiction of any type of rifle or any type of shooting though. BTW, it's not just BR shooters and LR hunters that shoot for very low runout. Lots of shooters in many competitive disciplines are shooting for the best reloads they can muster. It does'nt matter how good a shooter you are, if the gun wont shoot, neither will you. I know many cross course, high power and palma shooters that load with the BR quality ammo in mind.

The only reloading I've done is for national match shooting a Rock River and is so simple it'll start another pile in here.

I pull the green tip bullet out of Mil issue SS109 with a collet, remeter the powder and seat a 77 or 80 SMK with a rock Chuckar press. That's it.

These loads easily hold the 10-ring.

FMC is right about the CoAx press. A lot of run out is caused by the slop in the various threads in a die. I like to let the CoAx press float, but in the others be sure to tighten the lock nuts when there is a case in the die to align it with the shellholder. Grab the seating or expander stem of a die that the lock ring is not tight on, watch how far left and right you can move it in the threads. You can fasten the lock nuts and have it be cocked to one side or the other if there is nothing there to align it with, just common sense.

Pointblank...you are right and I thought of that after I went on my tyrade. I just see these threads so often that are posted by the guys that have a remchesterby that think if they get some fancy dies they're gonna start shooting .1" groups. Seems like everyone blames their flyers and "not perfect"groups on the dies or runnout and they should be spending time chasing other issues...while their inventory of normal FL dies could be building some darn good ammo for them.
I realize that for competition dies matched to chambers and perfect runnout are kinda like using good fuel in a race car. It's tiny differences that win.

To get real anal over it, the Co-Ax press has a floating die where the lock ring slides in a slot. When you put upward pressure on it with a case, what determines the straightness of the die in the press? Of course guys, the top of the lock ring! If it is crooked, what is to say the die is not being cocked off center?
I learned more years ago then I care to admit that the prime reason for poor accuracy was bullet runout when every other aspect of the gun has been addressed and corrected. If the bullet is crooked to the bore line, it will NOT straighten out when fired. It can be a little off center to the bore as when a case is a little thicker on one side but as long as there is no runout, it will still go down the bore fairly straight. Think about that! How many chambers will hold a round so the bullet is pointing dead center down the bore? Most just lay to the bottom side and is the reason I always loaded so the bullet kissed the rifling to get the steering part in line. This is not possible in some rifles with freebore but I always got super accuracy even from Weatherby rifles.
The primary reason for crooked rounds is over sizing and over expanding, period, not bullet seating! (Unless you are ramming the press handle down as hard and fast as you can.) Some guys just can't slow down and have to turn out 100 scrub rounds a minute. I once seen a guy size so fast that when a case was not in the shell holder all the way he smashed the case all the way to the center. Another guy seated cast boolits so fast half the boolit was outside the brass. If you load this way you should not even discuss accuracy.
Yes, I am a hunter but I want my rounds as accurate as a bench shooter. There is no such thing as good enough for hunting! Even my revolvers must shoot less then one inch at 50 yd's or I won't hunt with them. There are too many other things that effect shooting and having an inaccurate gun should not be one of them. Confidence in the gun can solve a whole lot of problems. No one in history has ever gotten to be a better shot with a gun that won't shoot. I want to know that my bullet goes right where the sights were when the trigger broke even if I was not exactly on target.
All the good enough for hunting idea does is shorten the distance you should hunt with that gun. Some are so bad 40 yd's is a long shot.
I see no reason to bed rifles, work loads for months or years to tweak the most accuracy from a gun, then shoot crooked loads.
And don't tell me that all of you hunters are not trying for the best accuracy! If you were not, you would not be here on this site to discuss how. If it wasn't for the BR shooter, the target shooter and the accuracy nut, none of our factory guns or bullets would be as good as they are now. So don't stop trying for perfection, never say it is "good enough".

2.5" groups at 500 yds would be good enough for me!!!!!

I realize this statement will make me an "underacheiver" by some others standards but, somehow I can live with myself!!

Perhaps the original issue, that was the effect of a press to runout has been overlooked and converted to runout's effect in a position match rifle.

It may come as a surprise to some but many of us do understand dial indicators, and the difference betweet Total Indicated Run-out and tilt.

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:
...For the most consistent ammo possible, the sizing die must size the case to just under chamber dimensions, and the sizing die should be cut with the same reamer that was used to cut the rifles chamber.

I've heard this before, but I don't understand...

If the same reamer cuts the rifle chamber and the sizing die, then the chamber in both the rifle and the die will be exactly the same size. So it would seem that the die would not reduce the size of the case at all, since it is already fire-formed to the same chamber dimensions. Or am I missing something?

Andy

Jake, you are correct and have missed nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by BigJakeJ1s:

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:
...For the most consistent ammo possible, the sizing die must size the case to just under chamber dimensions, and the sizing die should be cut with the same reamer that was used to cut the rifles chamber.

I've heard this before, but I don't understand...

If the same reamer cuts the rifle chamber and the sizing die, then the chamber in both the rifle and the die will be exactly the same size. So it would seem that the die would not reduce the size of the case at all, since it is already fire-formed to the same chamber dimensions. Or am I missing something?

Andy

Big Jake, I don't know why I posted this incorrectly. What I meant to say was that the SEATING die should be cut with the chamber reamer. As you eluded to, the sizing die needs to be cut so it will reduce the size of the case.

I was talking with a reloading friend of mine last night and I mentioned this discussion about rigid vs. floating setups and runout. He mentioned that, after the expander ball, the shell holder was giving him the most problems loading concentric ammo due to alignment problems. His answer was to remove the shellholder spring clip on the ram and replace with with a rubber O-Ring. And he also uses the shellholder for 6.5x55 (.480 head dia.) when loading cartridges based on the '06 head (.473 dia.) He says that this gives him enough float to overcome normal alignment problems and allows him to lock his die down tight and square it.

FWIW I've about to come to the conclusion that the best set-up for someone really chasing concentricty has both floating and rigid components.

Pointblank, now THAT sounds good! ( "...SEATING die should be cut with the chamber reamer)

belaw, I think that your friends very neat shell holder trick effectively duplicates the effect of a loose or worn ram. ("...remove the shellholder spring clip on the ram and replace with with a rubber O-Ring. And he also uses the shellholder for 6.5x55 (.480 head dia.) when loading cartridges based on the '06 head (.473 dia.) He says that this gives him enough float to overcome normal alignment problems")

All this talk about removing the expander ball has really got my attention. I use RCBS dies and a CoAx press. Has anyone removed the expander ball from a standard RCBS full length die? Are there any problems with the press fit of the bullet? I think I will size a case with the expander ball in the die then size one without it and see what the differences are in measurement.

In a conventional press, with the shellholder at one end of the ram, and the linkage at the other, looseness in the ram is NOT a good thing, since the linkage at the bottom end is trying to push it out of line with the die, and even tilts it, meaning the shellholder will be cocked at a slight angle compared to the die, even if it slides around to line up vertically with the die.

The Forster completely avoids this, since the "ram" is supported above and below the shell holder during travel, and the linkage attaches at the shellholder, avoiding the tilting moment on the ram and shell holder.

Russ, the RCBS die will make the neck too small and you will then bend a case seating a bullet so hard. The expander should be paired with the die. The solution is to lap the die neck for minimum sizing to start with, then the expander will just open it a slight amount with no force.
It seems as if all the problems I have had with runout over the years was caused by RCBS and Redding dies. I used to send my Reddings in with fired cases to have the dies lapped. They did a wonderful job. Now they have the collar dies where no expander is used and they are super. The Lee collet die does nice work.
RCBS then would go the other direction with revolver dies and make expanders so large you could not get case tension. I now only use Hornady dies for revolvers.

bfrshooter.... I did the measuring last night and there is a .008 difference with and without the expander. Of course the neck is .008 smaller without the expander.

I had a friend that got a new set of Dies for his 7wsm that were overworking the brass. There was about .008 neck grip. We figured out a way around it but in the meantime we had loaded some rounds with that much grip. The rounnout was terrible on flatbase bullets......006-.009" runnout and on the boattails they were about .004-.006". We had used a vld chamferer and they all seated without shaving.
THE RESULT....apparently this particular gun didn't fear runnout and liked the extra neck tension. It shot two batches of ammo to 3/4"....none over 1.25"....and all to the same point of impact. By the way...the hornady 154 flatbase (with the most runnout) was the most accurate. This was in a BAR browning that doesn't seem to like factory ammo at all.
I have also seen posts from other shooters where certain guns have responded very well to different neck tension.....even more so than evil runnout.