FELLOWS:

Please give me your ideas on by brothers recent event.

Facts:
.270 sako, bolt action, 130 gr bullets and 49.5 gr of 4064. upon the third shot, up she went. the stock was in three pieces. the only portion of the action which seemed to be damaged was the bolt release pin. the bolt handle had to have an application of the rubber hammer.

My guess was that the brass had lenghtened and the shell was too long.

[ 10-25-2002, 02:38: Message edited by: woody ]

how is the shooter? and the folks aroudn him? everyone okay? There was a fuckup, and it must be ID'ed before he shoots another round. Send the rest of the rounds to a lab, have them measure and ID the powder, and don't disbelieve that there was a powder screwup

I hope everyone is okay,
jeffe

I know a guy that blew up a brand new M70 featherweight in 6.5x55. Thought he was using W760 but in reality it was W680. This guy knows his way around the loading bench, but sh#t can happen. Yes he did survive....lots of brass particals in his face. Yes he does wear glasses but still got some particals in his eyes.

Thanks for the replies.

My brother had shooting glasses on and he was very lucky since he only got a small scab on his nose!

There is one factor I did not put in the original post----my brother is 77.

The other shots were normal and they hit where they were supposed to. In addition, the other powders he uses 4350 and 4831 should not have produced a foul-up. Moreover the case would not take a double measure of powder althought the old boy said the bullet was "hard to seat".

Frankly, I label the event as the NTSB would "pilot error"

A few years ago a gunsmith friend of mine showed me a Rem. M700 in 270Win. The fellow had fired a 308Win. in it. The smith was able to unscrew the barrel and get the bolt open. The head of the 308 case was brazzed to the bolt face! The stock I beleive was also split. They didn't try to reuse the action, but the barrel was used again and shot just fine.

The only gun that I have ever seen,that had been blown up,was a 1903 Springfield.
It happened when ball powder was the newest and best for the '06. This fellow made the easy mistake of using 2400 instead of ball. To someone who had been using stick powder exclusively,those two looked alike.
He escaped without any permanent injuries,and never had any problem telling them apart,since then.
Frank

WOODY,

what about some fragments from previous shot in barrel? or part from previous case (sometimes when crimped too tight part of the case could be "pulled into bore" and stay there......

If the bullet was hard to seat, as you note, he may have inadvertently used a 7mm bullet instead of a .277 bullet while reloading. There may have been sufficient chamber clearance to allow this round to be enclosed and fired. This would certainly spike pressures to and through the red zone.

I don't believe that an overly long case neck or even a .007" oversized bullet would generate enough pressure to cause the failure you describe.

One plausible theory, given that he also loads 4350 and 4831 is that with only 49 or so grains of one of these powders, rather that 4064, the load would be on the borderline of those low density loads known to sometimes exhibit the phenomenon of Secondary Explosion Effect, or S.E.E. It would not be uncommon with such a load for several shots to act normally (although in this instance the velocity and pressure would be fairly modest), then have a shot exhibit the infamous and elusive S.E.E., resulting in the gross overpressure situation you have described.

I'm not telling you that this is for certain what happened, but it is plausible.

What the devil is he doing using 4064 in a .270 anyway? The 4350 or 4831 are much better matched to this cartridge.

m70-30-06, action locked, stock split after firing. The brass was to long, needed trimming, bullet was crimped into the chamber. The owner of the rifle, had brass he picked up at the range, reloaded. I checked the unfired ammo , and some were way over max. length.

An oversized bullet might have caused a tight neck. Perhaps that acted at a plugged bore? But, wouldn�t it have been hard to close the bolt on a tight necked cartridge?

Ben

Stonecreek:

The 49.5 gr of 4064 was Warren Paige's favorite load for the .270. Some chap in by brother's barber shop passed it on to him. Why he tried it is anyone's guess. Frankly, I had told him he was wasteing his time pissing around with 4064 when he had two very accurate loads using 4350 and 4831.

Your observation regarding the light loads using 4350 or 4831 is very keen. Both Ackley and O'Connor had written about that topic.

Thanks.

[ 10-26-2002, 01:35: Message edited by: woody ]

"bullet was hard to seat" or "round was hard to chamber" ?

If the round was hard to chamber, it is possible that an
excessively long case caused the neck of the case to be
forced into the leade. This, of course, results in the projectile
being gripped MUCH more tightly than normal by the case
neck. BIG pressures can result from this error.
bill cooney

If the bullet was hard to seat, perhaps there was too much powder in the case. Could have been "bridging" in the powder measure on the previous dump, resulting in an overcharge on this case.

I've done that, fortunately caught it during the "flashlight" check. FWIW, Dutch.

Cases???

.30-06 necked to .270 without being turned or reamed just might do that if he hit one case with a neck a little thick to start.

Just one more thing to check.

I blew up my M14 after I used a can of what I thought was H380 my brother had. It was not H380, and 81,000 psi registered on the Oehler 43, that is all it took. I still haven't determined what powder was in the remaining cartridges. I do know it is stick powder though. I never had used H380 before this or I would have known it was a ball powder not a damn stick type, just like the label on the can says it is.

On another note, I noticed after loading some rounds for a new 300 RUM I just bought, the factory loaded Noslers and Scirocco loads had cases that were at maximum length for my chamber already, which happens to be the trim to length 2.840".

I know this because I cut about a 3/16" section off of the neck on a case with a dremmel cutoff wheel then split the ring section I cut off. I loaded the case with just a bullet and slipped the ring over the bullet, then inserted the cartridge with the "adjustable length case mouth" in the chamber. The Ring was pushed back to 2.840" every time I chambered it.

After first firing 15 rounds of the factory stuff yesterday without a hitch I noticing the trim to length today on Hodgdons website was "AT" my chambers MAX. It was only then that I checked some of my factory stuff.

I never thought nothing of it until I checked the factory stuff. I thought it was odd that the throat came so far back on mine, because it has always been at least .025" to .030" longer than the trimm to length on any other gun I've ever checked. I had thought I loaded my handloads a little closer than the factory stuff at 2.835" but it turned out I was even shorter by .005".

I don't know what's up but I'll find out.

A simmilar thing can happen when shooting a .480 Ruger then the .475 Linebaugh in the same revolver, or a .44 Special then a 44 Mag, powder build up can keep the case from releasing the bullet if the cylinder is not cleaned first.

this is NOT suggested loading technique

I'll go way out on a limb here, and since parker ackley was there too, i won't feel so bad,

Unless you had stacked issues... way hot lot of powder, or wrong powder, changed primer, crap in the barrel, a .284 in a .277 wouldn't blow the gun up. Ackley proved this by firing 8x57 in a 30-06, then when that didnt do anything bad, he fired a necked (and throated) 8x06 in a .308 barrel, still nuttin..

what could blow the gun up would be a 308 win in a 270 chamber. the bullet would just plug the chamber, the case would not fill it but to the top of the shoulder, the pressure would blow the brass back, as the 308 bullet would be a cork until the pressure built enough to swag it down, and the gun would come apart. There's one like that hanging at carter's country. it might have been a 25;06, but i think it was 270.

I would send the remaining rounds to a lab, have them tested, as see.

Ackley's Handbooks for reloaders has miles of this stuff, so you don't have to learn by personal screw up. he did all the crazy stuff you wouldn't even begin to think of doing.

jeffe

A friend of mine has kept a box of pieces that once made up a 25-06. He grabbed a .308 round and dropped it in the chamber without looking.

The boxed remnants of the high speed disassembly that followed his inattentve moment left a distinct impression on my reloadin' noggin. Friend keeps the box around around to remind himself.

Interestingly, the .308 bullet did swage down, exit the muzzle, and hit the target. Musta been one loooong .25 caliber bullet!

Woody--

The most plausible explaination is he loaded a 4831 charge of 58 to 60 grains in the case......but it was 4064 and not the slower powder.

The hard bolt close is ALWAYS a serious warning sign. It could have been a long case, or the wrong bullet, but I'd bet on a ten grain overload.

I'd appreciate pictures if you can get them.

A couple of months ago I was at my local range shooting with some freinds and I shot a 308 Win Through my 270 Win. The rifle is a Model 77 MKII Ruger Stainless composite stock. I took several of these with me to the range that day to fine tune them before season. How I did this I don't know but my safety awareness has gone up 4 fold. The amazing thing about this is that the rifle did not blow up, the bullet @ 100 hit a little high and right. I sent the rifle to Ruger for a complete check up and when I contacted them the tech. he said that it was not hirt but he had a hell of a time getting the copper out of the barrel before he could test fire it. One other thing that was amazing is that before I sent it to Ruger I had my gunsmith remove the timney trigger, Ruger took it apart to check it out. When I got it back I put my Leupold VX3 back on it and took it to the range to resight it in. Well to my suprise the first shot was dead center in the bull and the next 2 were cutting the first. It is still shooting better groups than it ever did before my big mistake. I however DO NOT recommend the 308 Win round through a 270 Win. to better accuracy, I have heard of lapping a barrel and bullet swageing but trust me this is not the way. To this day I still thank God and Bill Ruger for making such a tough rifle.

I am likely mistaken but I seem to remember O'Connor (?, might have been in the Handbook) talking about the SEE phenomenon in the context of light loads of slow powders. Not the case with a .5 over max load of 4064. Stone creek, am I wrong? Thanks, as one who narrowly escaped a similar catastrophe, I'm just glad everyone is OK and around to learn from such things.

There are three or four theories here that are plausible. Probably never know for sure as the evidence is in iddy-biddy pieces.

I have found a different caliber bullet in a box of (factory sealed) bullets.

Sometimes being around guns and reloading a lot causes us to become to complacent.

Dutch may have the best theory. Did he drop powder straight from a measure or does he weigh each charge for each case? If the former, I can easily see a coarse powder hanging up in the drop tube and then being dispensed on the next throw.

Just curious, did you have a chrono? If so, what was the velocity of the prior shot and what the velocity of the KB shot?

Martindog

One other possibility is the scale could have been inadvertantly moved. I once loaded a batch of 44 mag ammo late one night, and when I finished I just left everything on the bench. The next morning I went back and happened to notice the poise on the scale was bumped up 10 grains higher! I ended up pulling all the bullets and doing them over because I couldnt be sure when I had bumped the scale and moved it up. Most of them were OK but they changed and since they were near max to begin with it could have been a disaster. Also at 77 it could just be operator error. I'd pull some of them and weigh the charges. Good luck

It's always safer to use a slow burning powder, that fills the case.