I know a lot of things have been said about belted case in this forums.
I do not have any experience with them, but I want to know more, and will apreciatte if you could help me. Sorry if some question look dumb, like a said, I don´t have any experience with that type of case.

Talking about the shoulder headspace question in belted cases, and about the non-shoulder cartridges ( .458 WM / Lott ) ? Reloading dies calibrates the belt ?

Why the .375 HH headspace is on the belt, if this cartridge has a shouder ?

What are the advantages of the Short Magnuns not to have a belt ?

quote:

Originally posted by Reiter:
I know a lot of things have been said about belted case in this forums.



Why the .375 HH headspace is on the belt, if this cartridge has a shouder ?

What are the advantages of the Short Magnuns not to have a belt ?

The 375 H&H does not have enough of a shoulder to assure positive headspace. Other cartridges that would fit this catagory are 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, 450 Marlin etc. (The primary purpose of the belt in the case of the 450 Marlin is I believe to prevent chambering in the 45/70 chamber)

There is nothing wrong with a belt other than it takes up magazine space and is absolutly useless on a cartridge that has an adequate shoulder to headspace on.

It is not located @ the point of maximum pressure stress on the case head. (as demonstrated by some very concise pressure wave graphics post on this forum) Therefore it does not contribute to the case being able to withstand higher pressure.

If one were to take a 300 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm STW etc., etc, turn the "belt" off of the case and size to headspace on the shoulder, (which most experienced reloaders do anyway) there would be no difference other than maybe being able to get another round into the magazine. Is that a bad thing?

Now I am not advocating tampering with belted brass, I am just trying to make the point that the belt is really not neccesary eccept in cases where it is needed for headspcing.

I largely agree with Wildcat.

However, I would beg to differ slightly on the ability to headspace the .375 H & H on the shoulder. It actually has more shoulder than some rimless cartridges. When I reload the .375, I set my dies so that I get shoulder headspacing rather than belt headspacing. Now, the .300 H & H with its extremely shallow 11 degree shoulder is another issue, and I don't think it is practical (at least in mass-produced cartridges) for it to headspace on the shoulder.

The good news is that the belt makes a "fail-safe" headspacing system that provides a margin of flexibility (such as easy fireforming of cartridges such as the .338-8mm Remington, where the belt provides the headspacing on the initial firing and the shoulder on subsequent firings). The bad news is that factories take unfortunate advantage of the belt and typically "hog" out chambers for belted magnums much larger than they would otherwise be just because they "can" (oversized chambers ensure that nobody's factory loads will fail to chamber, and they also reduce chamber pressures).

Children,
The 300 H&H and the 375 H&H have plenty of shoulder to headspace, it takes extremely little shoulder to headspace, that old lark or therory has been contaminating the printed word and the airways for too many years, it BS...always was and always will be..just a myth that is passed on from a poorly written journalistic scam, and has no real basis

I have been headspacing on the shoulder of those two rounds for many years and no complaints yet...I also have loaded for and used the 400 Whelen in Imp. and std. along with the 375-06 and as of late the 10.75x68, so please quit propagating the rumor, thats is what keeps it floating around...

If you size on the belt with any belted case then brass life is very short as the brass is being overworked....

The .375 has been around for many years and proved its worth on every continent and didn't get there being a sub standard caliber with a head spacing problem, thats all bunk...and the 416 Remington is in that same class.

I might add that the belted cases of the 375, 300 H&H , 416 and a few others lend themselves very well to extraction when a straighter case would have the extractor pull the rim off, thus the design of the belted case...Only those that have not hunted dangerous game find this a non issue, I certainly like it and it has saved the day for my on two ocassions, its a real life concern in choosing a DGR IMO...I still feel like there is a place for a belted round and so must many others for it will still be with as we watch the RUMs disapear from the factory loadings as they are already doing and the ammo is getting cut back drastically...Live and learn how the gumballs at Remington think. They are truly bean counters....

could it be that the belt is put on when the shoulders are to narrow for suspenders???

My observations are that the .375 H&H has an adequate 15 degree shoulder but the 8 degree .300 H&H is not adequate.

The fundimental problem is not that "the factories are taking advantage" but that the headspace to the shoulder in bottlenecked belted cases has about an extra .007" space in actual drawing requirements. It's also a fact that the actual manufacturing of belted brass all too often is no where near the drawing requirements and neither are the chambers.

The bottom line is that if your die, shell holder and chamber are within the actual called for dimensions and tolerances that you will push the shoulder back far enough to weaken a belted case quite fast if you just crank the die down to the shell holder.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
The bottom line is that if your die, shell holder and chamber are within the actual called for dimensions and tolerances that you will push the shoulder back far enough to weaken a belted case quite fast if you just crank the die down to the shell holder.

Savage99, when reloading for my 300 win, the point at which I reach PFLR is when I "crank the die down to the shell holder" and add about 1/8 of a turn further down. Now, I am measuring with a headspace gauge and inserting the case into the rifle as I turn the die a little at a time in order to hit that sweet spot where the die just bumps the shoulder and just begins to relieve the crush fit and will be easier to chamber. Are you saying that I am pushing the shoulder or belt back someway?

Woods,

Not on that combination.

Savage 99,
If you just crank the die down to the shell holder in any case, your probably making a mistake...not just on a belted case. Knowing how to adjust a die is pretty basic stuff.

Ya'll need to listen to listen to that Ol' Fart, cause he knows what he's talk'n about.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
If you just crank the die down to the shell holder in any case, your probably making a mistake...not just on a belted case.

How so? Should the die be threaded further down or backed off when it hits the shell holder? The manuals say tighten it another 1/8 turn for full length resizing. For neck sizing (the way I understand it), the die should be backed off about a full turn to make sure it doesn't contact the case body, right?

Pardon the basic question, but I want to verify my understanding of the process.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I might add that the belted cases of the 375, 300 H&H , 416 and a few others lend themselves very well to extraction when a straighter case would have the extractor pull the rim off, thus the design of the belted case...Only those that have not hunted dangerous game find this a non issue, I certainly like it and it has saved the day for my on two ocassions,

And what does the belt have to do with extraction?

If you are speaking of double rifles I can see your point, but with a bolt action?

The extractor grabs the "extractor groove", not the belt.

When we necked the 7mm Rem mag down to 6mm and blew the shoulder out to 35 degrees we also removed the belt from the brass. Bad move! After 3 firings the primer pockets were way too loose. When we cut the belt in the chamber and left it on the brass the primer pockets outlasted the barrel. 107 gr Sierra VLDs at 3600 fps!

For those few of us that you use very reduced loads (sqib) and in expensive brass the belted case has an advantage.

With rimless cases the primer blast blows the case forward a few thou but the pressure of the very reduced load is not greater enough to fireform the brass, thus the headspace of the brass grows with each shot.

A gunsmith that you post here and HuntAmerica, Jack Belk, did not believe me so he went tried it with his 35 Whelen and found it to be true.

A disadvantage with belted brass and in particular Norma/Wby brass is that the solid head of the case does not extend to just above the belt. A looser chamber at this point and a sie that does size right to the belt will mean you can't resize to have a completely "free floating" case in the chamber which can some influence on very accurate rifles especially if you are trying to get new brass and full length sized brass to shoot to the same point.

From a functional point of view and for dangerouse game shooting the belt allows a very sloppy chamber to be made, especially around the shoulder which in turn means a case will be easier to chamber if dirty or if dirt/dudt in the chamber.

With the exception of using very reduced loads I regard belted cases Vs rimless cases as being similar (at least from my point of view) to the Push Feed Vs CRF, that is I would buy the rifle I prefer or the calibre I prefer and being FF or CRF or belted or rimless would figure into the equation to any great extent, although I have a slight leaning to PF and a slight leaning to belted cases.

Mike

eddieharren,

There would in theory be some truth there because if we made the 300 Win rimless then the rim diamter would drop fom.530 to about .512.

But I wonder if the process of turning off the belts heated the case head and slightly softened it in your example and that was the real reason for the primer pockets expanding with less shots.

Mike

Wildcat Junkie.
I never said the belt had any thing to do with extraction other than it allows more taper to the case and taper to the case is why it extracts without pulling the case in half if you have a hot load or old brass or whatever, therefore not leaving you with you thumb up your arse looking at a charging Lion, Buffalo, elephant or rabid rabbit...and this does happen more than some seem to think.

To answer a few other inquiries..To properly set any die one should start with two complete turns on the die off the shell holder and have your gun in a vice..then turn the die down a 1/4 turn at a time as you try it in the gun, until you get a crush fit, they back off that just a tad for hunting ammo..You want it to chamber easy but not sloppy...Belt or no belt you load the same way...That will, however, make belted brass last as long as any other brass..

Another great thing about the 375 and 300 H&H is they have very long necks and thats condusive to a lot of pluses with long heavy bullets..

Woods,
See my above posts it addresses your question..Remember all chambers are not the same, lots of variations due mostly to reamer wear and the nut working the lathe..So the directions with the dies are based on a perfect chamber, seldom the case.

Thanks

It's been my experience that neck sizing as you described will work with once or twice fired brass but the crush fit gets progressively worse until it is necessary to PFLR or FL size for easy chambering in hunting situations. Also neck sizing can become a bad deal if the cartridges get grit on them in the magazine.

But, I believe you're right that it doesn't matter whether it has a belt or not and I don't know if or when the die contacts the belt at all during sizing. Always been concerned with the neck, shoulder, and case during sizing.

Would like to know, though.

Woods,

Probably a few typos here as I am going to type it quick

300 Winchesters will shoot real well with about .004" to .005" headspace. What that means is that when the case is chambered it could be moved backwards and forwards in the chamber by the .004" or .005" amount. New rifle and new belted brass often have more than this.

Can you remove the firing pin from your rifle? For starters we will assume you can remove it. If so get some aluminium soft drink can which is about .005", well it is in Australia.

Cut a little square and stick on the back of one of your fired cases with greasem vasoline oe whatever and then put the case in the chamber and slowly close the bolt. You will immediately feel resistance because your fireformed cases have no head space.

Now resize a case and do the same with a bit of coke tin on the resized case. You might find it closes real easy or you still have some resistance. This is where adjusting the dies comes in

Note: Don't close on the bolt hard because the camming of the bolt is capable of pushing the shoulder back.

A fair idea situation is where the bolt won't quite close with the coke tin on the back of the case. You will feel resistance when the bolt is about 2/3rds closed.

A few thou headspace, that is around .004" gives good accuracy and case life and there is every chance your reloads will shoot to the same point in full sized cases as when loaded in new brass.

If you can't get the firing out then close the bolt on an empty chamber and with the trigger pulled. You should be able to rattle the both backwards and forwards. Now try it with a sized case that has been deprimed. To duplicate the coke tin you will still be able to rattle the bolt but not as much as when the chamber is empty. A few thou .004 or so will feel like a fair bit.

If you partial size, that is have the die screwed well out, say a turn or two, you will often get cases that are tight to chammber. This occurs (especially on parallel sided cases like the 243 or 300 Win) because you are sizing part of the body of the case and it forces the shoulder forward. In fact sometimes cases sized this way can be very difficult to chamber and quite often accuracy can be only so so. As you screw the die down eventually it makes contact with the shoulder. It is then a matter of adjusting the die to have the headspace you want which for me is about .004" or so and for others will be 0 or a light crush fit.

For the best and most consistent accuracy it is best to have either around .004 to .005 or a very light crush fit and for two reasons.

Headspace out at the .008" or so is abot where accuracy will fall off. Because of variation in the amount of case lubricant and spring in the press setting up for say .004 won't mean you have that on every case. Some might be only .003 and some might be .006" and that is fine.

But for peak accuracy you don't want some cases that are .002" and some that are 0. Thus if prefer 0 headspace it is best in the interests of accuracy to have a very slight crush fit. Again, this allows for press spring so some case my have 0 headspace and others might have
minus .02" and that is fine.

Lastly, full length sized cases that have .004 to .005 area of head space often give the best accuracy with bullets seated deeped than would be the case with neck sizing or sizing that results in 0 headspace.

This is one of the reasons that one shooter says neck sizing is the most accurate and another says full sizing is more accurate. What happens is that someone might have worked up his accurate load on neck sized brass and then tries full sizing but does not change the seating depth. The reverse happens with the person who has worked up his accurate load with full size and then tries neck sizing.

Mike

First., I like my big and little belted cases,
and they are all made from brass that has thick bases and large radius from base to sides, so that belt won't expand except with overpressure loads,Belt is below thinner section of the sides. I mention this because case longevity
whether belted or regular is dependent in
parton those factors. With thin base and sharp corner radius cases expand in area closer to base, wher sizer can't get to it, before sizer hits shellholder.Norma, Wea cases are like that. and if front of belt gets expanded they use collet dies or cheat a little like I did on
some with my case spinner/lathe, removing
.004 with a multi-faceted, floating, cutting tool.And those type of cases are the ones that PRE might have a chance of working. On thick base cases, with good radius Pre don't work.
And dies that give base too much reduction,in
the resizing process, should be hone out. so case is back to nominal size or not more than.002 under. And how that nominal size
works is thrown off if chamber is max.So you have to size a little less.IE, whatever you do has to match the chamber.And if you have cases
you really like that to get an expanded set to them near base where sizer doesn't get, is is better to take a little diameter off, as the set from firing has added hardness, so they usuall won't expand again as easy.
That is why belted HE series of cases
with thick bases, is nice for experimenting as sizer does area above shellholder, and the tool
does belt, in case you get pressures real high to expand it.Ed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
extracts without pulling the case in half if you have a hot load or old brass or whatever, QUOTE]

So is this likely to be a problem with the new
fat cases (WSSM's) do you think?
JL