Still having isolated pressure issues in my Tikka T3 with H4350 Extreme and Barnes 130 TSXs, even after reducing charge 1g. The bullets do produce significant fouling in my bore after only a few shots. Can anyone recommend a good powder with less pressure issues behind this bullet or 140 partitions? I heard this powder is supposed to be fairly forgiving. Anyone having pressure problems with the TSX? They were seated .045" off the lands. Same primer lot, no oil in chamber, properly trimmed cases. No sticky bolt lift, but had blown primer and plunger ejector popped out. When using different lots of the same powder,how different was the final charge weight after you started low and worked back up?

IMR 4831, H 4831SC, RL 19, RL 22 H1000 are all slower powders...so they should be usable with that bullet....

Are you using XBT ( the blue coated bullet) load data with the TSX??? Barnes recommends against that....

Also are you seating your bullets in deeper than you need to with the throat on your Tikka?

I don't know, but I would assume being a Scandanavian product, that it is correctly long throated....

I'd check your seating depth first...

Reloader 22 -- S40

Ditto R22.

Get 8 pounds of Accurate Data Powder 86 from Powder Valley.A full case is just about perfect for the 140gr. bullet in the 6.5 X 55. 47gr. behind the 140gr. gives you 2700 fps +. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Get 8 pounds of Accurate Data Powder 86 from Powder Valley.A full case is just about perfect for the 140gr. bullet in the 6.5 X 55. 47gr. behind the 140gr. gives you 2700 fps +. roger

I took Rogers advice and worked up this load in both of my 6.5x55's. 2700++ fps and sub MOA in both rifles. Thanks Roger.

Thanks for the tips. Seafire - I'm using the X data by the book. For the 130g, 46g of H4350 is listed as max. Barnes recommends .030 to .070" off the lands, so I'm in the middle at 78.6mm OAL (.045). Thanks again for the help

I was always using 46 gr's of 4831 in my Swede with super accuracy using the Hornady 129 gr bullet. Then I had the SEE in it and it blew the primer which I never found. I had to beat the bolt open. I checked headspace and it was OK.
I switched to Varget, accuracy is even better and I don't have to worry about SEE.

The main problem is the deep throat. No way to seat a bullet to touch and if the bullet comes out from primer pressure or a delayed burn and stops a micro second at the rifling, SEE will happen.

RL22 and 6.5x55s is like bread and butter.

I have some R22 and the burn rate is right. I will try it but I am so happy with Varget, it will be a while.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
The main problem is the deep throat. No way to seat a bullet to touch and if the bullet comes out from primer pressure or a delayed burn and stops a micro second at the rifling, SEE will happen.

Is this truely a bonifide documented happening in military Swedish 6.5 x 55 Mausers, or just a widely accepted rumor? I for one would like to be educated with some genuine data or firm information. Has the Weatherby line also been affected by such a design flaw? roger

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I was always using 46 gr's of 4831 in my Swede with super accuracy using the Hornady 129 gr bullet. Then I had the SEE in it and it blew the primer which I never found. I had to beat the bolt open. I checked headspace and it was OK.
I switched to Varget, accuracy is even better and I don't have to worry about SEE.

No SEE to it all dry land.
Sorry I had to say that.
Have you checked your Mauser mainspring and bolt body for a large load of cosmoline. You will get a slow clunk of a firing pin fall if it is loaded with cosmoline and poor ignition resulting in SEE or something that might as well be SEE. I had it twice in an M91 Mauser until I cleaned the cosmoline. How do I know this ...I was shooting two M91s at the same time. They will chamber each other brass and I swapped bolts.

ED

Please explain what SEE means. The 130g TSX contacts the lands at an OAL of 79.8mm, just shy of the max OAL for the caliber. Someone mentioned to me that a pressure problem could be caused by neck sizing instead of full length sizing. This seemed odd, but I wanted to bounce it off you guys. My understanding was that neck sizing could cause chambering problems for cartridges used in rifles other than the one which fire formed the cartridges.

SEE is the sudden unexplained rise in pressures to dangerous levels with very light charges of slow burning powder. Some various theories on its cause are out there but I haven`t yet seen or read of anyone knowning the exact cause or of anyone being able to reproduce the event in the lab at will.
The bullet moveing forward to the leade and jamming there when the powder first begins to ignite, due to the slow powders being harder to ignite then faster ones, then acting as an obstruction as the remainder of the powder ignites is the one I think the other posts are refering to. I haven`t heard any proof though of the amount of jump having any effect on the occurance. Nor have I heard of it being more common in rifles with long throats like the Military Swedes or Weatherbies. I`m sure someone will add to this.....

johnu

Norma Mrp

Cheers
/JOHAN

My swede is customized, no gunk in it. I think the Weatherby will also give trouble faster then a normal throat with a light charge of slow powder. Since this is not the usual way to load for a Weatherby you would never see it happen. Weatherby puts in the freebore to reduce pressure and if I wanted a light load in the gun, I would never use a slow powder. Any cartridge with a light load of slow powder can be shot for years and all of a sudden it will happen. No way to explain or predict it.
I increased the load of 4831 in my Swede to keep it from happening again but accuracy was not as good.
I have read many theorys over the years and the only one to make sense was the stopping of the bullet in the throat just before pressure starts to increase and is caused by too much air space above the slow powder. Why it doesn't happen with a fast powder and a lot more space is beyond me. I don't think anyone will ever know so I just will stay away from any light loads of slow powder.
The strange thing about it is that the 46 gr load is highly touted as the best in the old guns. I will never allow 4831 near mine again! My friend had the same thing happen with his rifle so two occurances is two to many.
I will go out on a limb and say a more modern rifle with a normal throat might never have the problem with THAT load plus hotter loads can be used.
If I remember, the military used a very long bullet in the swede and is the reason the throat is so long.
I can only say that I am not going to tell anyone that a bullet stopping is the reason it happens but after seeing it twice and not having a better theory, why take a chance that it is wrong? Why would anyone take a chance with a reduced load of slow powder? Fill that case up and feel safer!

BFshooter;

Sorry, but I cannot agree with you on the cause of high pressure in low powder charges. Throat length has nothing to do with it.

The most reasonable explaination that I have heard is that the slower burning powders do not build enough pressure and detonate. The detonation causes the extreme pressure peak. The same thing happens in gasoline engines. Inadequate fuel supply (lean mixture) causes a "knock" or detonation.

Modern slow burning powders require high pressures to operate correctly (50,000 psi or higher). Most reloading manuals caution the user not to go below the minimum charge listed with the slower powders. Too little is just as dangerous as too much.

It is not the Swedes or Weatherbys only, it can happen in any rifle using the modern slower burning powders. Any powder with a burn rate slower than H-4895 should be used with extreme caution. (Hodgdon states that 4895 can be loaded as light as 60% of max.).

I hope this is of some interest. I use R-19 with 129 gr.and lighter bullets and R-22 with the 140 gr. and higher. And, of course, H-4895 with reduced loads.

Handloading is fun but it can be dangerous,

Jim

I can't disagree because I don't know, however, if you look, you will see the Swede is only designed for 45,000# of pressure so if you say 4831 has to be shot at 50,000# to be safe, I can't see the reasoning. The manuals state 45 minimum to 48 gr's max of IMR 4831 with 129 gr bullets. I am sure all of these loads are under 45K. In other words you are saying a slow powder can NOT be used in any rifle under 50K! Why do lower pressure loads work so well in rifles with normal short throats? Why does adding one or two more gr's of 4831 prevent SEE even though the pressure is still under 45K?

Here's what I can add on the subject:
1) I have never had the problem with my practice load (140 MK over 41g of H414, .020" off lands)
2) I have had the problem only with the 130 TSX over H4350Ext. Happened with charges not on the light side. .5g above max (46.5) and .5 below (45.5)
3) Could the hardness of the Barnes be contributing to the problem? I still get lots and lots of copper fouling (not supposed to be an issue with the new TSX). I think I will switch to the Nosler Partition. Very frustrating

Forgot to add:

There seems to be more than enough neck tension, so I didn't use a crimp. The bottom of the bullet is about halfway down into the shoulder, compared to the 140MK, which seats very easily and doesn't have much neck contact (so I don't use them in magazine).

quote:

Originally posted by johnu:
Still having isolated pressure issues in my Tikka T3 with H4350 Extreme and Barnes 130 TSXs, even after reducing charge 1g. The bullets do produce significant fouling in my bore after only a few shots. Can anyone recommend a good powder with less pressure issues behind this bullet or 140 partitions? I heard this powder is supposed to be fairly forgiving. Anyone having pressure problems with the TSX? They were seated .045" off the lands. Same primer lot, no oil in chamber, properly trimmed cases. No sticky bolt lift, but had blown primer and plunger ejector popped out. When using different lots of the same powder,how different was the final charge weight after you started low and worked back up?

I used old surplus H4831 to work up a load for the 6.5X55mm, and was able to get 2800 FPS with 140-grain Sierras out of mine.....

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
I used old surplus H4831 to work up a load for the 6.5X55mm, and was able to get 2800 FPS with 140-grain Sierras out of mine.....

I totally believe you, but is it pressure friendly in the military Swede rifles? roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
I used old surplus H4831 to work up a load for the 6.5X55mm, and was able to get 2800 FPS with 140-grain Sierras out of mine.....

I totally believe you, but is it pressure friendly in the military Swede rifles? roger

Yes.

R-22, I read is the same as what was used in the 156 gr swede ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
I used old surplus H4831 to work up a load for the 6.5X55mm, and was able to get 2800 FPS with 140-grain Sierras out of mine.....

I totally believe you, but is it pressure friendly in the military Swede rifles? roger

Yes.

R-22, I read is the same as what was used in the 156 gr swede ammo.

Having difficulty relating your answer to my question. Please explain. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I can't disagree because I don't know, however, if you look, you will see the Swede is only designed for 45,000# of pressure so if you say 4831 has to be shot at 50,000# to be safe, I can't see the reasoning. The manuals state 45 minimum to 48 gr's max of IMR 4831 with 129 gr bullets. I am sure all of these loads are under 45K. In other words you are saying a slow powder can NOT be used in any rifle under 50K! Why do lower pressure loads work so well in rifles with normal short throats? Why does adding one or two more gr's of 4831 prevent SEE even though the pressure is still under 45K?

Sorry, I was not clear in my explaination. I was diagreeing only on the point that the pressure spikes were related to chamber throat depth. I have experienced this problem two times and both were with short tight chambers. One was a 25-06 custom the other with a Rem. 700 VLS with a very short throat. So I will be hard to convince that chamber dimensions are a factor in this high pressure issue.

Although the reference I used on the pressure's
low side limit was 50k, that is a little high. You are correct in saying that some loading manuals use a lower number. I do not know what the danger point is on the low side, but the point is, don't go below the manuals starting loads with slow burning powders. I am NOT saying that you cannot go below the 50K minimum, just that most slow powders are designed to work at or above that pressure.

My experience with a 25-06 AI was caused by starting loads of IMR 4831. With no loading data for the AI, I started with standard 25-06 charges and blew a primer. A call to Nosler Tech Support was a great help.

No more wildcats for me, if I need to go faster I'll buy a larger caliber. Too much hassle for the small gain.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:


Having difficulty relating your answer to my question. Please explain. roger

Explain your question.

Ive shot 48 gr of R22/140 gr bullet in my m38/96 swedes no problem, but back it off to 46-47 grs

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:


Having difficulty relating your answer to my question. Please explain. roger

Explain your question.

Ive shot 48 gr of R22/140 gr bullet in my m38/96 swedes no problem, but back it off to 46-47 grs

Nosler manual suggest 42.5 gr of R-22 as a starting load and also the most accurate, and a max. of 46.5 at the top, so anyting in that range should be safe. 48 gr. would be over max. and would require working up to that level very carefully. Stopping at the first sign of pressure. I would not go above the max. in my rifle, I am sure I would see pressure signs because of a tight chamber.

I have been using IMR7828ssc in my .260ai (sim. cap.) w/ great results. It's just a bit slower than RL22, but seems more consitent.

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:


Having difficulty relating your answer to my question. Please explain. roger

Explain your question.

My question to El D was did he consider the heavy load of 4831 PRESSURE FRIENDLY. What would you consider PRESSURE FRIENDLY in military Swedish rifles or the Krag Jorguson for that matter? roger

It has been my experience that IMR/H 4831 is about the perfect powder for the Swede, as have been all slow burning powders I've tried. I don't use RL powders, or the short cut version of the above mentioned simply because there is ample room in the 6.5 case. My favorite powder is the ever dependable IMR 4895 along with the 140 grain core-lokt bullet.

Bartsche, I dont know anything about Krag Jorguson , but have loaded quit abit for m96/38 swedes and my m70 chambered in 6.5x55. and worked up alot of different loads with 120,129,140,160 gr bullets

Go with what the Nosler manual says, its pretty conservative which is good. With 140 gr bullet , 46 gr R22 should be pressure friendly.

The Alliant powder data list 48.1 with R22 and 140 gr bullet

There were several guys on a swedish mauser web site a while back, loading 48 R22 with a 140 but thats about maxing it, I think

4831 WILL work in the old Swede but you should stay near the max load listed for safety. My accuracy fell off drastically though because 46 gr's was super and any addition of powder would not group. Some new rifles will eat up 4831 because they can be loaded hotter and still shoot good.
But my favorite load scares me now and I will only use a little faster powder. I shot that 46 gr load for years without trouble, then my friends rifle had an SEE and I just blamed it on his loading. Then mine had it about 6 months later. A lot of you like the powder but I would not shoot less then 47 or 48 gr's.

As added insurance, I will get some lapua brass. I have read good feedback on it. Seems to keep the primer pockets tight when other brands can't.

quote:

Originally posted by GSP7:....
Go with what the Nosler manual says, its pretty conservative which is good. With 140 gr bullet , 46 gr R22 should be pressure friendly.

The Alliant powder data list 48.1 with R22 and 140 gr bullet....

I use 46.5gr RL22 (Nosler max), Lapua brass, Hornady 140gr SPs, and Fed 215s. Bullets are seated down to the top of cannelure and given a moderate crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die. This load is exceptionally accurate and shows no sign of excessive pressure in my CZ550 FS, YMMV. Safety caveat applies, start 5% below max and work up carefully.

Johnu, I am not talking about a loose primer pocket, I am talking about one blown out HUGE from about 90,000 psi with the primer missing from the gun when I opened it. At least I never found it on the basement floor after I used a mallet to open the bolt.

I am not talking about hot loads showing high pressure either. All of my loads showed no pressure signs, normal primers and the cases fell out of the gun until the big one. Some of you do not understand SEE, they are NOT hot loads but underloaded rounds with slow powders.
There is no explaining it, you can go for years and years with no problem, then BANG, the gun can blow up. Thankfully, mine and my friends were still OK.
Those that say reduced loads of slow powders like 4831 are perfect for the old Swede have not had it happen---YET. I will never stick my hand in the fire again!
Take it with a grain of salt. Play with fire and tell others it is OK, not me, I warn my friends.

Your scenario is similar to mine, except I was using loads close (+/- .5g) to max in a new rifle. Bottom line for me - when I get the gun back I will use lapua brass and RL22 under 140g bullets and keep it at that. No safety glasses when deer hunting, and there is only a flimsy plastic shround between me and escaping gas.