http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=010348



Follow this link . Take a look at this guy's eye , and what's left of his gun and see if you still think the "light" loads in bottleneck cartridges with Blue Dot is a good idea.........

I see a wrecked eye and a wrecked gun.
No more details.
I wonder if I could find pictures of a wrecked car and a wrecked human body.

wanna drive a car again?

The big assumtion here is the guy did not screw up the loading procedure. But it does drive home the fact as to be careful. Now if you do not trust things like quickload wouldn't other imperical methods like case head expansion show you that you are approaching or have crossed the line.

I am glad Slinger posted this link. Thanks for doing so.

If one reads thru the postings by "Randy" in a lower post, he says he does not blame the Blue Dot.
He indicates that he had a "fear" or "caution" about any hand loads.

Accidents and screw ups can happen and happen to anyone of us. That is why safety should be the most imperative thing. However also, we are playing with explosives when we load with powder, so an explosion is possible. He might have double charged the case which is possible with 10 grains,, but he would not have been paying attention to the powder level when he loaded it.

I have tested Blue Dot down to only 4 grains in a 223 case and then tested if it was position sensitive and it was not.

We can only spectulate what caused the round or the Contender to blow up. However, it was not 10 grains of Blue Dot in a 223 case! Something else had to cause the explosion and the contender to come apart. That would have been a very high amount of pressure to do that.

Red Dot or Green Dot, over loaded could have caused that. I have had one exploded gun in my reloading.THANK GOD, that I was not hurt. But it was operator error.

I had placed my scale on 57 grains of powder when I was trying to load for 47 grains of H 414.

ONe guy on that tread did mention that he had "heard" that Blue Dot suffers from pressure spikes. I have never seen it suffer any pressure spikes at all. In fact it has proven one of the most consistent powders that I have ever used.
Chronographed velocity spreads as low as 5 fps for 5 cartridges.

It has also proven to be very very accurate from 223s to 444 Marlins, and everything I have tried it in, in between. ( with the exception of 30/30 for some reason). It has even made some problem rifles into some real shooters.

The accident is a travesty, but it can't be blamed on the powder. All of my experience has shown the likelyhood of something like that, if even possible can only be operator error of some sort. We all screw up,,whether we admit it or not.

But once again, thanks to SDSlinger for bringing that post to the attention of the forum.

Cheers
seafire

I have used reduced loads for over 30 years, in fact I just remembered I am 56 so it would be closer to 40 years.

I can't remember using Blue Dot but have used Green Dot, Hi Score 700 X and then powders like H4227, Varget, H4198 our version of 3031 which Hodgdon does not seel and in calibres from 22/250 through to an including 460 Wby.

One of my favourite loads in the 375 H&H is 39 to 41 grains of H4227 and 220 Hornadies. Does right 2100 and I have shot 10 shot 1 inch groups with that load in accurate 375s

BUT, you have to be careful an doubly careful of using a powder measure as those bulky shotgun type powders can hang up.

If I settle on a load like the 40 grains of 4227 in the 375 then I make a dipper for the load.

One area where care needs to be exercised when using faster than normal powders in large cases. It is quite easy to work out what the likely maximum load will be for a powder such as 4198 in a 375 or a 300 Wby. Years ago duPont use to publish such loads.

However, what can happen is that you can get hangfires that are so small you do not notice them but they have the effect of reducing the pressure. So the reloader keeps increasing the load and passes the "theoretical maximum" but the hangfires are fooling him with low pressure readings. Then he gets to the point where is ignition is correct and he has a big overload.

Win 748 and 760 are paricularly bad offenders.

Having said all ofd that I think shooters who have not done reduced loading miss out on a lot.

For reasons which I can't explain reduced loads seem to shoot even when rifles have shit bedding or shit barrels. The also produce a different sensation to a smaller case loaded to full pressure to get the same ballistics. I prefer shooting with reduced loads in a big case than using full pressure loads in a smaller case developing the same ballistics.

In the last 460 Wby I had I used 85 grains of 4064 with 500 Hornadys and it did a whisper over 2000 f/s and with super accuracy. Very mild pressure as a 60 tops out at about 104 to 106 grains of 4064 with 500 Hornadys. Yet that load was just so much nicer to shoot than a 458 with full pressure loads.

Mike

Is there a possibility that with these relatively fast powders the famous Secondary Explosion Effect occured?

Honestly, I would wonder because with those powders like Blue Dot, H110 and N110 the loading density in our big handgun cases like the .45 LC are even lower than in the bottleneck rifle cases and they are still completely safe.

I spoke with the Vihta customer service regarding the use of their N110 powder for reduced rifle loads. They could not give me any datas but said that this powder would be usable for this kind of application. Also the German ballistic institute DEVA has some N110 loads published in it's manual.

Like stated here already, Blue Dot is somewhat bulky and does not meter that well. Also, in a case like the .223 or .222 it is not so easy to check the powder level, especially when the case is not new and has been used already once. Since things can go wrong, a double load would be the most likely explanation, even more so since with Blue Dot the loads discussed here are NOT low pressure. The pressures are similar to the regular loads with rifle powder but combustion is much faster. This means that the pressure peaks off quick and has not the same time to accelerate the bulklet. Also the pressure at the muzzle is for these reasons lower and gives less blast when the bullet exits.

QuickLoad which I recently got is an excellent tool to evaluate different szenarios and combinations of powders and bullets. My .338 WM load's pressure is about 10% under the CIP maximum.

It is of course always good to AT LEAST double check when using firearms or explosives and be careful when doing things that have not been documented officially.

The guy with the bad eye says he doesn't THINK it was the 10 grains of Blue Dot . Maybe so , maybe not . Also a while back , there was a posting on sabier.com about a .17 Remington wrecked with I think 9 gr of Blue Dot .

Now , I am not against reduced loads , and I have used Blue Dot some myself , but I am wondering if there are more predictable powders to use like 4198 or 4227 , for which there has been lab tested data . Blue Dot and other shotgun powders are formulated to operate at around 10000 psi . They cross over OK to handguns at around 30000 psi . But if you use them in a rifle at 40000 psi or maybe way over , maybe there is a chance they become erratic and possibly detonate on rare occations ?

Another point on Blue Dot , back when it was first introduced , of course handgun shooters jumped on it right quick . We soon heard though , from Bob Milek and others , that when used in a handgun at temps of -20 F or so it could become erratic and give excessive pressure with otherwise normal loads .

Personaly , I am going to stick with powders that are not as touchy as the shotgun stuff.

sdgunslinger,

i don't know about Blue Dot but what I do know is that when powders are used that are much faster than would normally be used in the calibre accuracy comes at much lower pressure and also falls of at much lower pressure.

In other words if you use 4198 for reduced loads in a 264 you peak accuracy will be at low pressure, in fact wuite often at pressure that is barely enough to full fireform the case. But of course use the same 4198 in a 222 or 458 and peak accuracy can be delivered at top pressure that in a well bedded rifle with good barrel might be pressure at the level just below ejector marks showing.

Many years aago in a 308 I tried working up a full pressure load with one of the "green dot" type powders. I had string on the trigger and big sear engagement

I can't remember the loads but I do remember that there was only couple grains between what looked like a normal top end load and a badly blown primer. In other words I could have seated a 50 BMG primer in the fired case. So my guess is that another couple of grains would have blown the side of the case head out.

The old Lyman loading manual use to publish loads for about all calibres with the Green Dot type powders.

Mike

quote:

I can't remember the loads but I do remember that there was only couple grains between what looked like a normal top end load and a badly blown primer.

Exactly my point , Mike. And when you go to the .223 type cases , there is even less margin for error....

But you don't load to higher pressures.

For example 39 to 41 grains of H4227 is a great load in the 375 H&H with 220 Hornady flat noses.

It does around 2100 and seems to shoot in many 375s. Pressure is very low. For example at the 35 grains the bullet is press fit back in the neck of a fired case and there is soot down the side of the case. The 39 to 41 grains has a primer that looks like it was fired with no powder.

Now if I wanted to go up to 2300 or 2400 with that 220 grain bullet I would switch to a 4198 burn rate

But I always make a dipper for an established reduced load.

By the way, a little trick for very reduced loads that you may not be aware of (useless in 378 and 460 because of huge freebore) is seat the bullet out far enough son that closing the bolt jams the bulley into the rifling, You will be amazed how low down you can come with top accuracy and powders like 3031 burn rate.

Mike

PS,

I have never done any reduced loading worth talking about in the small cases. I have done sme in the 22/250 and Swift and bring them back to the 218 Bee to 222 level.

I think Savage99 has done a lot with the 220 Swift from virtually 22 long rifle ballistics and up.

Mike

quote:

But you don't load to higher pressures.

Exactly so , and I would have no problem with that sort of load in the .375 . But some of these Blue Dot loads have been balls to the wall.....

By the way , have you used H4198 extreme ? I was wondering if it is fine grained "short cut" stuff , or if it is long grained and bulky like IMR4198 ?

I also appreciate the caution, as I use a LOT of blue dot loads.

Recently, though, I have gone back to SR and H4895 loads. Simply because they CAN'T be double charged. Refer back to Murphy for the supporting logic.....

The real point, however, is this. Was the shooter wearing safety glasses?

JMO, Dutch.

Looks like a smaller version of Varget, in other words it is longer than its diameter.

Just as a side note on these Australian powders we are behind what you get. For example we have only just got 2225 (Retumbo).

Also the 2209 (H4350) that is mostly around the place is about IMR 4831 burn rate, so 2 grains slower than IMR 4350 in a 270, But RIP said the other day that he got some H4350 and it was at IMR 4350 burn rate or a tad faster.

This is not a very partiotic thing to say but I think IMR is better powder and so is Reloader and especially when you get away from the 223, 22/259, 243 and 308.

it seems to vary a lot in different calibres, For example a few years Varget was shit in the 375 but shot beautifully in the 460 Wby and both of those calibres are very similar for powder burn rate requirements.

What I have found with it in mnay of the bigger calibres, say 300 Winchester, is that if you use the Duponts and loaded all the different bullets and then did the same with the ADI powders then average group size of the dupont loads would be bette than the ADI loads but quite possibly the fastes and most accurate load might come from the ADI powders,

But I think it is improving with being exposed to the big American market,

Mike

Hi guys, this is a good thread and I hope many reloaders read it.
I have only used blue dot in my 12 gauge and some 9mm loads. I have tried the Ed Harris load of 13 grains of Red dot in my 303 british loads. But I load these without anyone talking to me and use a wood dowel that has a line on it. I put the dowel in each case and make darn sure there is no double charge and then place a bullet into the neck.

These loads are fun to shoot in my #5 faz, yes they are light loads but I have arthritis in my shoulders and this is the only way I can enjoy shooting the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Clark:
I see a wrecked eye and a wrecked gun.
No more details.
I wonder if I could find pictures of a wrecked car and a wrecked human body.

wanna drive a car again?

Still want to use Blue Dot. For many of us the answer is Yes. We have to feel confident enough that our method of reloading precludes throwing a double charge. In each of us there are levels of competence and maturity. Those who lack understanding of the true possibilities of the dangers of this activity are the ones most likely to get hurt.Those who really think they meet the criteria to safely load Blue Dot ( or other unrecommended powders for any given fire arm) will tell ourselves we are competent to handle it. (With us there will always be the likelyhood of injury form overconfidence.)

The original question is valid. Maybe MOST neophytes, reciepe loaders, inexperienced load establishers or those with a low confidence level should stick to enjoying what they safely do and understand.

Let the Blue Dot to those who enjoy testing a fire arm to its destruction or those who like to go into the world of the different and unusual. Then there are those who don't like to wareout their barrels so try whatever not to get them too hot.

Each individual will have to intelligently ( what's to gain what is the down side ) deside if his answer is yes or no. Either way if you are safely doing what you like there is nothing lost. roger

Isn't this the same guy who's a cop? Didn't this happen 2-3 years ago?

Below is the link to the posting I saw that got me going on blue dot in 223s,

But then I also noticed some load data in a manual for a 44 Mag using blue dot. I decided to try it in a 444, using 44 Mag data and got good results.

All of you guys have to make up your own minds, but I don't think there exists a powder on the market that someone has not messed himself or his firearm up with. It is reloading procedures and lack of safety, or trying to push a powder beyond its limits. Some are more forgiving than others.

don't get me wrong either, I use a lot of SR 4759 and even more of 4198. Blue Dot has shown to give some excellent accuracy, just like Mike 375 brings up.

Any how, here is the link, that got me started with Blue Dot:
www.jamescalhoon.com/tobee2.html

Cheers