If a maximum pressure is listed for a spesific load then why is it always reccommended to start lower and work up to the max load??
The manufacterer is saying that max is safe so why do we have to work up to the max load?

Safe is safe is it not??

To quote the Hornady book: "each rifle is a law unto itself and generalities should be made with circumspection".
Each rifle is different. And the equipment that the folks making the book used may be quite a bit different than your equipment. Even with two rifles in the same calibre and from the same manufacturer, you will seldom come up with a set of loading info that matches each rifle.
The rifle company starts out with a new reamer, each rifle that is chambered with that rifle will be slightly different because of wear to the reamer.
And finally, to me, it seems that few rifles do their best work at maximum pressure nor velocity.

What Hornady says is absolutely true.

We have had rifles that will not digest loads that are 10% BELOW MINIMUM charges.

And we have had rifle that will take 20% or more than MAXIMUM charges.

Thanks Saeed and Wasbeeman.

Saeed do you start 10% below max and keep increasing until you see signs of pressure begining and then back off a bit from that point??

Also do you begin with the bullet seated right up to the lands or back a bit?

Start off at the lands or very slightly off (.005 IMO). Increasing powder charges along the way, it's the only way to know what max pressure is in your rifle. Back off the lands, pressures go down. Seat out to the lands, pressure goes up.

So the process is alot of tweaking and shooting I guess.

So for a shooting session you start out .005 from the lands at 10% below max and work your way up??

How do you ever determine the best gap from the lands??

What is you first sign of too much pressure that you stop at?

Sorry for the questions but it's confusing

LT,

I typically start at magazine length, and 10% below max, and work up with my selected bullet. If I don't get satisfactory results by just varying the powder charge, I will move on from there.

If results are close, I will start verying OAL. If I'm not even in the ball park, I will change powder, or bullet, or both.

The short answer is yes, it's alot of trial and error.

I like to start out .030" off lands as seating very close to the lands ie: .005" can cause pressures to be higher than normal. Many bullets will vary in ogive length by .002 or .003. Add that to your .005" and you are almost touching the lands.

There are a couple of time tested rules for pressure (all rifles are not bolt actions).

When whatever load you are messing with equals the highest velocity for THAT BULLET,in the makers loading book, it's prudent to be happy. Requires a chronograph.

If you can get your hands on a pressure transducer, you are in hog heaven.

Sad to say today's super powders and bullets have changed the game to a degree. An example:
I noted Barnes was getting 3450 in a 24" bbl with an 80 gr TTSX and Hybrid 100V in a 25-06.
Checked with Barnes and it had a lot to do with the bullet's low friction design....so, I just happened to have a Browning 1885 Wyoming Centennial in 25-06 with a 30" bbl and 1 in 13" twist. (bone stock). Noting that Hornady Superperformance was close to 100 V, I started messing around. As you know any falling block, although terribly strong, does not have the extraction power of a bolt gun. Kept working up until it took a bit of effort to drop the lever. backed off a grain and they popped right out.
Chrongraphed all the way and the final load averaged 3997 fps. It also shot sub MOA groups with just a 3-9 Conquest. Now the funny part.
When looking at the fired primers they showed flattening but no cratering. Then the light went on, the Browning 1885 has a rebounding firing pin (so you can drop the falling block) where as bolt gun firing pins stay in the primer "dent" until you lift the bolt. By the time I hit 4000 fps the primers looked unfired but the pockets were not enlarged. So a classic pressure sign was worthless in this style of action. Playing with fire ? IMHO no, since the nice hard Winchester cases pop right out and are going on reload #5. The load knocked one speed goat down like the hammer of Thor and in typically Barnes performance penetrated over 2 feet, wrecked the lungs and exited. Bang, flop.
I also think the weird twist lowered pressures a bit.
Best safety measures for day in day out reloading are bullet manufacturers manuals (think about how different the seating rules are for monometals vs cup and cores) and a chronograph. Follow them and you should never get in trouble IF your rifle is safe.

So do you still start out below the max load listed in your reloading guide or is it safe to start there since it is listed by the guide as "safe".

I'm still not sure where to begin with a listed load that I like from the reloading guide.

No, it is never safe to start with the max load listed in a manual and if you'll read the instructions in your manual it will tell you that. Always start at the listed starting load and work up carefully watching for any indications of high pressure.

Is that a "Cover your Ass/Liability" recommendation from the reloading guide people or is this what you all do??

How much do you like your face as it currently exists?

Yes, there's a certain amount of CYA in the manuals, but you can't tell until YOU test that your rifle doesn't have a minimum chamber or that your lot of powder doesn't burn a smidgen fast.

Reloading is not a hobby for people in a hurry. Take your time, use your brain and buy a chronograph for use as a sanity check.

As I posted, you can't assume that your rifle is going to shoot it's best at maximum pressure(velocity) As posted, a chrony is, IMO, one of the first nice-to-have items you can buy after you get your basic kit together.
I get the idea from your post that you're really looking for an endorsement to go balls to the wall from the onset, and perhaps up from there. You will find others in cyberspace that feel the same way. But to paraphrase an old pilot's saying: you have bold reloaders and old reloaders, but you don't have any old, bold reloaders.

Thanks Fellas and you are correct on all points.

I will find a max load that I like and reduce it by 10% and take it from there

I'm might be 50 but still damm pretty and want to stay that way for as long as I can...I figure another 10 years and it's all over.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
I like to start out .030" off lands as seating very close to the lands ie: .005" can cause pressures to be higher than normal. Many bullets will vary in ogive length by .002 or .003. Add that to your .005" and you are almost touching the lands.

Sorry but that's not even close to being correct. A bullet comparator gauge measures the distance to the lands from the ogive of the bullet. You may have to seat the bullet in or out by the .002/.003 you describe (which is correct in that the same bullets from the same lots still vary), but the bullet comparator gets it at .005 (or whatever measurement you want) every single time. Just measuring the COAL can generate the problem you describe, but not using a comparator.

On your pressure comment, of course seating closer to the lands generates higher pressures. That's why you start 10% below book max and work up, using a chronograph, and watching for pressure signs.

I've found that by doing this, most bullets want to shoot their best very near the lands.

Remember that when you seat so your bullet is back from the lands, you are seating it deeper, which raises pressure.

Here is a post from another forum with a list of pressure signs that might be useful. Interior ballistics is quite an involved science.

Pressure signs from UncleNick on TheFiringLine.com forum
amd supermoderator on shootersforum.com

http://www.shootersforum.com/h...-pressure-signs.html

Lost Sheep
edit: JGRaider is right (the post after this one). Seating with some free space before the bullet hits the rifling does reduce peak pressure.

But remember, seating a bullet deeper in the case reduces the free volume of the case. Less volume increases pressure.

The two factors (1-more free bullet movement after ignition and before hitting the rifling and 2-reduced volume) work in opposition to one another. One acting to reduce pressure and the other acting to increase it.

Anyhow, thanks JGRaider. I only focused on the volume aspect.

quote:

Originally posted by Lost Sheep:
Remember that when you seat so your bullet is back from the lands, you are seating it deeper, which raises pressure.

Here is a post from another forum with a list of pressure signs that might be useful. Interior ballistics is quite an involved science.

Pressure signs from UncleNick on TheFiringLine.com forum
amd supermoderator on shootersforum.com

http://www.shootersforum.com/h...-pressure-signs.html

Lost Sheep

You've got it backwards Lost Sheep. Seating the bullet on the lands ,or very near it, creates more pressure than seating a bullet farther off the lands. The deeper you seat a bullet, given the same powder charge, pressures go down, velocities do the same. Just the way it works.

So, loading a slower burning powder with a compressed load, like retumbo at 106% fill ratio, won't cause more pressure than a faster burning powder at, say 90% fill ratio? I'm still soaking all this in, trying to figure it out. So many variables.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Harmon:
So, loading a slower burning powder with a compressed load, like retumbo at 106% fill ratio, won't cause more pressure than a faster burning powder at, say 90% fill ratio? I'm still soaking all this in, trying to figure it out. So many variables.

No, it won't cause more pressure just because it's compressed. Slower burning powders allow you to load higher charges, therefore higher velocities. Put it like this. In my 7mag, 175 Nosler Partitions, a 68 g charge of Retumbo will give you more velocity, and less pressure than a faster burning powder, IMR 7828 will with a 61g charge.

What are you loading for Dan?

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Harmon:
So, loading a slower burning powder with a compressed load, like retumbo at 106% fill ratio, won't cause more pressure than a faster burning powder at, say 90% fill ratio? I'm still soaking all this in, trying to figure it out. So many variables.

No, it won't cause more pressure just because it's compressed. Slower burning powders allow you to load higher charges, therefore higher velocities. Put it like this. In my 7mag, 175 Nosler Partitions, a 68 g charge of Retumbo will give you more velocity, and less pressure than a faster burning powder, IMR 7828 will with a 61g charge.

What are you loading for Dan?

I'm loading for a 7mm rem mag. using 168 bergers

I wound up with 71.5 g of Retumbo, seated .010 off the lands with the 168gr VLD hunting bullet. Avg velocity in a 24" barrel was 3020, and it shoots around .75 when I do my part.

Loading a compressed load in a magnum rifle at only an attempted .005 off the lands is a good way to wind up far from home with a bullet stuck in your barrel and an action full of powder. I've never heard of anyone measuring every bullet and hunting bullets just aren't that precise. When 70 grs. of powder ignites it can cause bullets loaded over compressed powder charges to move forward. Even the vibration encountered on your trip from home can cause bullets to move. I've loaded bullets over compressed charges, set them on the table and they had moved forward overnight just sitting there. Anyone who says these circumstances will not or can not happen simply doesn't have much experience. Loading that close to the lands is fine for target shooting but just asking for trouble if you're big game hunting.

Leopard Track. Yes I do start 10% below maximum listed charge. With a magnum rifle I shoot a ladder test with three cartridges, going up one grain at a time until I'm two grains below listed max then I go up 1/2 gr.. In a standard cartridge like a 308 I go up i/2 grain at a time until two grains below max then .03 grains at a time. I am very adept at recognizing high pressures and I always set up the chronograph. So I'm testing for accuracy, velocity and pressures at the same time. These are just initial tests, further testing is always necessary.

I had no idea a compressed load would push the bullet forward over time or vibration, but I guess it makes sense. Now I'm a little concerned about using retumbo. What's the sense in finding a good load if the COAL won't stay consistent?

Large compression ratios WILL push the bullet out unless a good crimp is applied.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Large compression ratios WILL push the bullet out unless a good crimp is applied.

The key there is "large". I've never found use for a highly compressed load. Slightly compressed loads are often time the most accurate ones.

swampshooter, obviously anybody should start at book max-10%. Standard procedure and I said the very same thing. 71.5g Retumbo in a 7mag is a very popular and safe load, as is the .005. Bullet comparators make loading .005, .010, .0015, etc etc etc all very easy and repeatable. It's actually a much safer way of doing it than COAL. Distance between ogive to the lands is the key. Slightly compressed loads are often times the most accurate, and very safe. Nobody ever suggested cramming all the powder you can into a case and seating a bullet. Stupid people need to find another hobby. FYI swampy, I've been doing this over 30 years with no problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Harmon:
I had no idea a compressed load would push the bullet forward over time or vibration, but I guess it makes sense. Now I'm a little concerned about using retumbo. What's the sense in finding a good load if the COAL won't stay consistent?

Dan, have you looked at this yet? You will see throughout many compressed loads with Retumbo. Hodgdon/IMR wouldn't publish them if they weren't safe....quite the opposite.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Also, you ought to give Berger a call. They have a long list of load data they will email to you. Ask them all the questions you want, as they are very helpful.

Here's another one, from a master bulletsmith at Berger.....I didn't make this crap up.

http://www.longrangehunting.co...ts-your-rifle-40204/

Dan, Excellent velocity along with very good accuracy can easily be developed for the 7mm RM without loading a compressed load right up next to the lands. Try RL-22 or 7828. I'm currently loading the 160 Nosler AccuBond in my 7mmRM. I get over 3,000 fps and it'll hold less than moa accuracy to 300 yards (the limit of our range) at least. Exact load is 65.5 gr./ RL-22/ WW brass/ F-215 primer/ .030 off of lands. This year, 317 yd. elk (lasered after the kill). First shot in high winds (30 mph) hit her through the liver. Made her so sick she only went about 5 yds. and stopped. Second shot through lungs dropped her on the spot. Recovered bullets under the hide on the far side weighed 105 and 110 grains.
For pre-season practice I use the same load with the Sierra 160 gr. Gameking. (about 1/2 the cost). It shoots just as good, but I prefer the AccuBond for the added bullet integrity on close range shots if they should arise.
My shots at all ranges will land under the cross hairs of the scope. How can you ask for more from a magnum sporter hunting rifle?

I'm glad I joined this forum, I'm learning a lot. I read that article on Berger bullets before, but this quote: ("This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.") -that's a huge area if you're only moving .005 at a time.

Anyway, I think I'll stay with Bergers because I've got 2 boxes of them, and I know they're good shooters. And as long as it's safe, I'll try to find a good combo with retumbo.

What is a bullet comparator?

Swampshooter,
that RL-22 looks pretty promising. My brother-in-law loves those nosler 160's, maybe I'll steal a few and try that load.

Seating into the lands or .005 out is another bench rest facet that some have tried to apply to hunting. When building a hunting round, absolute function and absolute reliability should be the first two demands. Loading into or near the lands in order to get a 1/8th" smaller group is just a form of ego stroking.
As far as compressed loads go, I've always been able to find another powder that does as well without being compressed. I'm, of course, not talking about a stick powder that goes crunch as you seat the bullet. And, again, I've never found the need to run the ragged edge in order to get another 100-150fps velocity.

J G Raider, I've been an avid shooter, hunter, reloader for 50 years. I've hunted in over 15 different states plus Canada, Mexico and Africa. I've worked as a hunting guide in the U.S. Canada and Mexico. I've seen people up in the mountains 1,000 miles from home with a bullet stuck in the barrel and an action full of powder and ammo that had grown to the point that it was too long for the magazine. Using the loads that you suggest is fine as long as the bullet is crimped in place with fresh brass and you're hunting within 50 miles of home. A good strong crimp requires a crimping cannelure that's in the right place. Otherwise for a hunting rifle AVOID HEAVILY COMPRESSED LOADS.

I'm familiar with Hodgdons reloading data. Nowhere have I seen them suggest to load heavily compressed loads .005 off the lands like you did. IMHO that is not good advice to give a beginning reloader. I've used my bullet comparator enough to know that not all bullets, especially hunting bullets measure exactly the same from base to ogive. .005" is only the width of 2 human hairs.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Dan, Excellent velocity along with very good accuracy can easily be developed for the 7mm RM without loading a compressed load right up next to the lands. Try RL-22 or 7828. I'm currently loading the 160 Nosler AccuBond in my 7mmRM. I get over 3,000 fps and it'll hold less than moa accuracy to 300 yards (the limit of our range) at least. Exact load is 65.5 gr./ RL-22/ WW brass/ F-215 primer/ .030 off of lands. This year, 317 yd. elk (lasered after the kill). First shot in high winds (30 mph) hit her through the liver. Made her so sick she only went about 5 yds. and stopped. Second shot through lungs dropped her on the spot. Recovered bullets under the hide on the far side weighed 105 and 110 grains.
For pre-season practice I use the same load with the Sierra 160 gr. Gameking. (about 1/2 the cost). It shoots just as good, but I prefer the AccuBond for the added bullet integrity on close range shots if they should arise.
My shots at all ranges will land under the cross hairs of the scope. How can you ask for more from a magnum sporter hunting rifle?

RL 22 is the best all around powder I've found for my 7mags, from 140-160gr bullets. Both 140 and 160 accubond loads are .04-.750 when I do my part, both .005 off. Berger VLD H bullets are a way different animal though, and take a lot of tweaking. I agree with you on the accubond vs VLDH. I'll take the accubond every day of the week. My buddy shot a big 185" muley buck this year from a whopping 30 yards with a 7STW and 140 AB. The bullet retained over 65% of it's weight even at those velocities.

Every rifle is different even with same exact loads. Some like bullet jump, some do not.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Otherwise for a hunting rifle AVOID HEAVILY COMPRESSED LOADS.

I'm familiar with Hodgdons reloading data. Nowhere have I seen them suggest to load heavily compressed loads .005 off the lands like you did. IMHO that is not good advice to give a beginning reloader.

Nowhere did I advise him or anyone else to use heavily compressed loads, ever. I never do use them either, ever. If your familiar with Hodgdon loads, every time you see a "C"next to a powder charge of Retumbo it's compressed. You should know that. I didn't make it up or publish it, Hodgdon did themselves. If it were liable to blow up do you think they'd publish it for the world to see? You obviously do not know how to properly use a comparator. It has nothing to do with the base of the bullet. Do you savvy ogive? The comparator reading gets you the same exact distance from the lands of the rifle in a loaded round, every single time, period because it measures the distance from the ogive of the bullet to the lands. Whether it's .005, .075, .010 or any other distance off the lands, using the comparator will get you there every single time. It's impossible for a loaded round seated .005 off to jam into the lands.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Harmon:
I'm glad I joined this forum, I'm learning a lot. I read that article on Berger bullets before, but this quote: ("This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.") -that's a huge area if you're only moving .005 at a time.

Anyway, I think I'll stay with Bergers because I've got 2 boxes of them, and I know they're good shooters. And as long as it's safe, I'll try to find a good combo with retumbo.

What is a bullet comparator?

Dan, here ya go......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llvsEsaK8-M

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Large compression ratios WILL push the bullet out unless a good crimp is applied.

The key there is "large". I've never found use for a highly compressed load. Slightly compressed loads are often time the most accurate ones.

swampshooter, obviously anybody should start at book max-10%. Standard procedure and I said the very same thing. 71.5g Retumbo in a 7mag is a very popular and safe load, as is the .005. Bullet comparators make loading .005, .010, .0015, etc etc etc all very easy and repeatable. It's actually a much safer way of doing it than COAL. Distance between ogive to the lands is the key. Slightly compressed loads are often times the most accurate, and very safe. Nobody ever suggested cramming all the powder you can into a case and seating a bullet. Stupid people need to find another hobby. FYI swampy, I've been doing this over 30 years with no problems.

You have been pretty luck. As you know Berger VLD 7mm 168gr hunting bullet is 1.445" long and you are right that Comparator get you correct seating depth every time. Now here come the but. Berger bullets are not always same length and the boxes I have 7mm 168gr VLD they vary .010 or more and that can be from the ogive forward. You could just be kissing the lands and not know it or you could be further back from the lands.

Ok, I just researched what a bullet comparator is. and I think I know why and how it's used. There's a couple different styles and brands, anyone have a preferance?

Well as I said, bullet length has zero to do with ogive to lands measurements. I don't know about the variances you state in lengths from ogive to tip, tom. Where do you get that info? I dont like Berger's anyway. I started fooling around with some a couple of years ago and they're too finicky for me to waste much time on, especially since I much prefer accubonds. I did wind up with a .75 load though and probably put some 400 rounds down the tube. Depending on the bullet, most all my loads are from .005-.025 off. I'm a hunter, not a paper puncher, but I do like to get the very best (safely) out of each load and rifle.

Not to be argumentative, please. But if there's that much variance between individual Berger bullets (tip to ogive), why don't the Berger ballisticians themselves mention it in that article (link) I posted for Dan?

Dan, I'm familiar with the Hornady and I like it. Lot's of guys like the Sinclair too.

quote:

Originally posted by JGRaider:
Dan, I'm familiar with the Hornady and I like it. Lot's of guys like the Sinclair too.

Awesome, thanks