Good afternoon fellas. I am wondering if i can get even better accuracy with my .38-55 by using a filler to fill the case up more. How does one go about this?? Do you just add the filler after the powder?? How much filler?? I read a post on here a while back where Paul B uses cream of wheat as a filler in his .45-70. I am shooting 26 grs of H322 with a 245 grain lead cast and overall length of 2.50 Anyone have any experience doin this??

I used cornmeal as a filler in .45-70 cases years ago. I was shooting AA 5744 under a Lee 405 gr HP in a Siamese Mauser with loads way under max without filler. Read somewhere that 5744 was rough on the bases of PB bullets. I just dug through my Lee dippers until I found one that held enough cornmeal to fill the case within a quarter of an inch on top of the charge I was using. When I seated the bullet, the cornmeal and charge were compressed just enough so I did not need to worry about them moving around and getting mixed.

I was not too worried about pressure because the charge was safe in trapdoors without the filler and the Siamese is an enormously strong action. It seemed to work. Loads with the filler were noticeably more accurate than without. I dunno whether it was because the filler held the charge against the primer or because it protected the base.

This trick is only for straight walled cases and I would want a big margin of safety before trying it.

Kapok was used as a filler at one time, its a silky fiber obtained from the fruit of the silk-cotton tree, can get it at a craft shop if they still make it.Used to stuff pillows. The filler made NO difference in accuracy in 30-30 or 30-06 cast bullet loads. The filler goes on top of the powder charge, use enought to keep the powder from moving around. I would not use cream of wheat,as it will mix with the powder.

Regular cotton will work.I would'nt use Dacron though quite a few guys do,cotton will burn whereas dacron melts.JMO
Jeff

I have used baby cereal or Dry Maypo cereal in the past.Both of them worked fine.

Mark
Do a search on the words "dacron", "polyester", and "foam filler"
The Dacron, [polyester pillow stuffing] I have used in my 450 No2 does not show any signs of melting, nor does the two types of foam filler I have used. And this is with charges of powder above 100gr. of IMR4831. All cases of ringed chambers I have found involve very small amounts of dacron or kapok. When the filler fills the case between the powder and the bullet and is compressed by the bullet durring seating [to prevent powder shifting] I have not heard of any problems. I have fired several hundred rounds in my 450 No2 all with filler with no problems. The few times I tried loads without filler I had serious hang fires.

Chamber Rings and Natural Fibers

This article, written by John Campbell, is reprinted here by special permission of American Single Shot Rifle News.
emember the abomination of double-knit fabrics and "leisure suits" that befell men's fashion in the 1970s? I do. And I also remember the happy day when someone once again discovered that natural fibers were best. The world returned to cotton, wool and sanity.
Now it appears that the same philosophy offers us a solution to this over-powder wad/chamber ringing problem. Some of you may remember a few years back when I ruined the chamber of a perfectly good .38/55 Winchester Single-Shot by blowing out 30-30 brass with "squib" loads. I was using 12 grs. of Bullseye, a Dacron fiber wad to hold the powder in place, and a Lyman 311227 cast bullet in the case mouth just to plug the end of the "tube." In less than half a dozen rounds, I had a magnificent chamber ring. It was so bad that I had to pound the cases out of the rifle with a rod.
I reported this incident in the ASSRA News and the piece spurred quite a bit of response and speculation. Charlie Dell was among those who chipped in some commentary. He declared that he'd never had any problem with kapok wads in smokeless powder cast bullet loads, and that he'd never ringed a chamber. I had no reason to question Charlie's contention, but I did give him my recipe for chamber rings nonetheless. Intrigued, Charlie and a learned associate proceeded to see if they could reproduce the chamber ringing effect under controlled conditions.
They used an old "junk" Winchester barrel, chambered it to 38-55, and followed my loading formula. Sure enough, they got rings. And they kept getting rings under the right conditions. Charlie even cut the chambers out of these ringed barrels and cross-sectioned them to examine the swollen rings. Charlie showed me a few of these chambers. After more tests, Charlie reported his findings in this journal some issues back.
The bottom line to Charlie's investigation was that Dacron was the absolute WORST thing you can use for an over-powder wad. Contrary to what some gun writers had suggested in the 1960s and 70s, Dacron is not consumed in the process of ignition. It is merely melted. And under certain conditions, this plastic glob does ugly things to a nice rifle. Here's my analysis.
In a worst case scenario, this goo is thrust ahead of the powder gases and against the base of the bullet. There it encounters an object of resistance (the bullet) and acts much like hydraulic fluid (which is incompressible). If the bullet is breech seated in the barrel, or loaded out in fixed ammunition to engage the rifling, resistance is enhanced and things are exacerbated. As the Dacron goo strikes the base of the bullet, it is momentarily trapped between the bullet and the massive pressure of the powder gas building up behind it. For a microsecond, it has no where to go... except to exert a radial, lateral stress on the barrel steel. If that steel is of a modern alloy with high hoop strength, it can sometimes resist this lateral force and everything seems normal. The bullet begins to move, the pressure at its base is relieved, and the gun fires it projectile downrange. When the bullet exits the muzzle, the melted Dacron evidence is blown to the winds.
However, if the steel of your gun barrel is of a less sophisticated 19th century alloy, like that found in an original Winchester Single-Shot, bad things can happen. The lateral force exerted by the melted Dacron goo is often enough to defeat this steel's strength. In that situation, the Dacron is melted by the burning gunpowder as it is driven forward to whack against the base of the bullet. There it is momentarily stopped, and it "hydraulically" impresses its wafer-like form into the case and chamber. At first, you don't notice that anything strange is happening because the rifle sounds normal and the bullet hits the target where it is supposed to. At first, the ring impression is very light -- almost invisible. But this insidious "Dacron effect" is cumulative. Fire about 50 shots or so and... surprise, you've got a nasty ring! The first time you are aware of such a problem is when extraction becomes a little too sticky. You look at the fired case carefully. Then you see it. Right there around the case neck where the base of the bullet was seated is an obvious ring. By then it's too late. The damage is done.
The only way out of this predicament is to gauge the depth of the ring and then get a neck or neck/throat reamer specially made to clean out the depression. This will increase bullet/case/chamber neck clearance and degrade the bullet-aligning qualities of the chamber. Bullets sized to a larger diameter may help to obviate this drawback, but the results are unpredictable. One of my Model 85s shot worse and nothing could be done to improve its performance. Another was able to handle a special Hudson bullet with its new throat and shot more accurately than it ever had before. Go figure.
But the most important thing to keep in mind with Dacron wads is that the ring-generating conditions and forces are there-- and in play -- whether they create a ring or not. If your modern Douglas barrel shows no signs of a ring with Dacron wads, it simply means that it has been able to withstand the forces that are at work. The ruinous pressure is still there!
For some reason, the Dacron chamber ring phenomenon is very scarce in rifles of .40 caliber or larger. Those who look for it in a 45-70 will look a long time. Why is this is so? Again, I can only offer my personal analysis:
When the Dacron goo hits the bullet base in a chamber the size of a 45-70's, I believe the pressure wafer it creates is markedly thinner than it would be in a 32-40. This thin edge of pressure either exerts less lateral force against the chamber wall, exerts it for a shorter moment of time, or both. The result is a greatly reduced tendency to create chamber rings. But from one perspective this doesn't make sense. If the melted Dacron's ring is narrower, shouldn't that small edge have great force? This is where my insight begins to break down. Maybe larger calibers don't melt the Dacron so completely or quickly.
But we're agreed on one thing. Dacron is bad. So what's the alternative? Actually, there are two. First, you can use no wad at all. Accurate Arms 5744 powder is reported to be fairly "position insensitive." In other words, it can end up pretty much anywhere in the cartridge case and still provide consistent ignition and pressures. My tests substantiate this. But they also hint that if 5744 was consistently back there against the flash hole, it would work even better. So would a lot of other powders that aren't as "Schuetzen-friendly" as 5744.
For them we still need a harmless wad -- like Charlie Dell's kapok. But just try to find some kapok these days. I eventually gave up looking for old life preservers and wracked my mind for a substitute. Then ASSRA member Mike Brennan suggested the obvious: cotton. That's right, cotton. I got my supply from the corner drug store for less than two bucks, and have been using it for years now with absolutely no ill effects. It's fluffy and it works like Dacron to hold the powder back against the flash hole. But it doesn't give you chamber rings. Not in a range of cast bullet loads that I've used it in from 25-20 to 45-70. And let me emphasize that my experience with cotton wads has spanned several years and several thousand rounds. I don't use much. Just enough to hold the powder in place. That amount varies from one caliber/case to another. In process, I push the cotton down against the powder with a section of old 22 caliber jointed cleaning rod. I don't tamp it down.
So far, accuracy with cotton wads is outstanding and the chronograph reveals extreme spreads and standard deviations that are about half those of identical loads without cotton wads. When the round is fired, you can just notice a thin fan of white from the muzzle. This tells me that the cotton fiber is not burning to charcoal -- or melting like Dacron. The cotton is merely riding behind the bullet and dissipating into the atmosphere as the projectile exits the muzzle. And since natural fiber cotton does not enter into a hydraulic, "plastic goo" state under ignition, I don't believe any lateral pressure at the base of the bullet is enough to force a ring into the chamber... even with old Single-Shot barrels. The impedance and ring force conditions may still exist, however.
On the upside, cotton wads may even serve to enhance accuracy by protecting the base of the bullet from distortion and impingement by powder granules. Cotton's insulating qualities may also help to keep more lubricant working for you for a longer time. So at this point, I'm confident enough about cotton to let you in on the secret. It just goes to prove a gentleman's adage, "In clothes or shooting, natural fibers are best."

Mark, There are several types of fillers, e.g., cereals, granular poly or "grex," (shotshell buffer for steel shot) and natural or man-made fibers (cotton, kapok, dacron polyester) and several different ways of using them. The fibrous ones are generally used as small tufts pushed gently into the primed, charged cartridge to hold a reduced load of powder against the primer. In theory, this improves combustion and reduces variations in velocity. However, there is some evidence that said practice also rings chambers, enough so that the NRA stopped recommending it in 1977 (still is a controversial topic). Cereal fillers can be used similarly, but they do increase pressure. Lastly, some of us use powdered bran in small doses (1cc or less) and/or grex (but not together) in bottle-necked cases with large charges of very slow burning milsurp powders (WC 860, IMR 5010) to improve burning characteristics. However, the powder charge must fill at least 80% of the case. Hope this helps!

I've never had a problem with using cotton quilt batt. I think the chamber ring thing could be related to the Bullseye. I use rel 7 in the 45-70, I hear good reports on 30-31 for the 38-55, but have yet to try it.

For the 38/55 with light cast bullet loads I have been using kapox. It's easy for me to find as it's in many old life jackets and boat seat cushions.

With the Lyman 375248 cast bullet that goes about 250 grs I use 0.7 grs of kapox over 15.5 grs of IMR SR 4759 and a regular primer. A magnum primer may work better yet but I have not used them in that load but I do use them for reduced/kapox loads in many other cartridges.

The NRA's Handloaders Manual says not to use small amounts of Dacron in any cartridge. There is a thread here now on that in the Big Bore section. The point made there is that "they" say that more or maybe a full case of Dacron is good for big bore black powder express rifles. I have not pursued this method and have no reason to do so as my kapox loads are very accurate and my rifles are black powder guns also!

Interesting note on dacron above. In the late 60's or early 70's I managed to ring 2 30-06 rifle chambers in the neck (at the bullet base)exactly as mentioned.

Mark
Please read my original post. ALL cases of ringed chambers I have read about involve SMALL amounts of filler, usually pressed into the case to hold the powder against the primer.
I have been unable to find any cases of ringed chambers when the amount of filler completly fills up the case and is slightly compressed against the powder by the seating of the bullet.
As an example in my 450 No2 with 100grains of IMR4831 I used 5 grains of poly. With a lighter load consisting of a 300gr. bullet I use 52gr. of IMR4198 with 15 grains of poly.
In both loads the poly has been recovered after firing and there are no signs of melting,charing, etc.
Loads using these "large" amounts of filler are pretty much standard among double rifle shooters. I have fired several hundred of these loads in my No2 with no ill effects.
Under NO circumstances would I use "a small tuft" of filler in any cartridge.
I would not hesitate to use these "Nitro Express" techniques for cast bullet loads or even to make light loads in say a 460 Weatherby.
It would be very easy to make accurate uniform 45/70 power level loads using "NITRO Techniques" in any big cased "elephant gun". Even Saeed's T-Rex could be made fun to shoot. And a pretty good wild pig gun to boot.

[ 05-28-2003, 21:52: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

I don't know anything about fillers and stuff...It's not my thing at all...

But Seyfried wrote an interesting article about it last year.

he was using dacron, enough to fill the case completely, as NE 450 says.

Seyfried felt that the rings came from small amounts of filler stuffed on top of powder charges.

The small tuft would hurl forward when the powder charge ingnited. It wwould be speeding forward as one mass, effectively becoming a projectle, or "bullet"

Then the Dacron projectile would encounter a bore obstruction (the real bullet) and a chamber ring would occur before the real bullet and dacron exited the barrel...

His version is much more in depth than mine. Look it up if you like.

...A friend of mine uses neoprene in subsonic loads for his 8x57R, says it has always worked perfectly.

He uses a spent .44Mag case to cut the wads, although I must admit I wouldn't have tried this myself..

I set up my Dillon powder measure to drop corn meal and top off my 45-70 cases. (That's just about all the accuracy the Dillon is capable of, anyway .) I've never had any trouble with corn meal; things got more unpredictable w/o using a filler.

I use the Dacron poly pillow filling that Ross Seyfried wrote about in his Handloader December '99 article. I use it in a Nitro Express case, 450/400 3 inch.
I have never had any chamber ringing in my circa 1908 Double rifle.
The article refers to using Reloader 15 formula to achieve Cordite performance and pressure curves for old Double rifles. The article deals only in reloading with RL-15 and Dacron filler in Nitro Express cases.

In a later article Ross deals with fillers and Black Powder for BP doubles. He advises against fillers for BP. Here is a link to that thread and a copy of the article on BP and fillers
What the Ross Article really said.

The original purpose of the Nitro Express was to be able to deliver a large caliber bullet at relatively low pressure in tropical heat.

I my opine, any extrapolation of the use of a small amount of Dacron as a filler in any other situation is ill advised!

Having said that there is also an article in that about the 7MM Mag. In that same issue and they show the fillers used including Dacron, Super Grex, and Remington's buffer.

If anyone wants the "Reloading the Nitro Express" article I have an emailable copy that I will be glad to share. Just drop me an email at rkmojo@aol.com

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[ 05-30-2003, 04:21: Message edited by: Rusty ]