shot 3 deer on 31st Aug with my 25.06 using hornadys 120gn hp, the deer were relatively small(10~15lbs) all three ran enough distance in to the plantation that it was impossible to find them that night!
so returned in the morning with the dogs
the deer had all been shot behind the shoulders but slightly high but below the spine. I noticed that there no large exit wounds only a small hole the same size as the entry wound.
would I be right in assuming that if there is little resistance upon impact that the bullet will not expand.I was under the impression that hollow points will expand when either impacting upon bone or with the pressure of fliud up into the cavity of the bullet. have had great results with these bullets on reds and the accuracy was excellent, but might have to have a rethink on shooting smaller deer with these bullets. any thoughts would be appreciated.

Griff

What was the distance of your shots? Also, what velocity are you shooting these bullets?

Good Hunting
Steve

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Every man dies, but not every man really lives!!

Griff, it's bullet construction and not appearance that's important. I'm not that familiar with Hornady's but I am with Sierra. Take their GameKings for instance ; they come in 2 versions : SPBT and HPBT. The HP is the hardest of the 2 and recommended for heavier game or close shots where high velocity might promote fragmentation. This may be an explanation unless you shot so far that velocity dropped off (I had the same happen to me in the Scottish Highlands. No expansion on a Red Stag at 250 m with a 170 Norma Vulkan in 7x64. From then on, I switched to a .300 Win Mag and had no problems since).

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Andr�

Maybe a .223 with 60gr bullets is in order for those varmint sized deer. Pretend they are coyotes..

Mike

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Victory through superior firepower!

There is a spot above the deer's lungs and below the spine that is empty of any vital organs. A high shot, hitting in this area and passing through, would not expand much at all, because of very little resistance. It is relatively, skin and nothing more. Deer are truly thin skinned.

I don't know if your shots were this high, to have had this result, but my experience with whitetails and hogs using the Hornady product had been nothing less than wonderful expansion and penetration. If the shot is placed in the vital organs. A high shot can result, in fact usually will result in an animal that eventually dies, but does so quite far from where it was hit.

Of course I'm guessing here, but the shot was probably slightly high out of the zone, but killed only through the transfer of engery that is provided by speed and kinetic energy. Those high shots still caused enough damage to vital organs on their expanded wound channel to eventually kill the animal. The permanent wound channel wasn't a true factor in your kills. Rather the expanded wound did the damage that eventually got you your game.

Of course, I'm guessing, because I really haven't seen your shot placement. Be a little low if anything. It works well for me and the fellows I hunt with.

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Live Free! Madison, Jefferson and all the boys paid for it, and so did our very own fathers.

Griff,

If those deer weighed 10-15 pounds, I'm not surprised that 120HP didn't expand - it's built to perform on much larger deer at 25-06 velocities, and I'm sure is too heavily constructed for deer that size.

I would expect many 100 grain lead tip spitzer game bullets at 25-06 velociies would work well, and vermin bullets (75-87 grains) would work also, but they would tend to tear uo LOTS of the available meat due to explosive fragmentation.

I'm not generally a fan of the Nosler Ballistic Tip, but deer this small are a great use for it. You need a bullet that will open up against light resistance.

BigIron

thanks guys, forgot to mention all deer were shot between 80~200yds, velocity approx 3000fps. one thing I have learned reading the replies is that one weight of bullet will not perform its best on varying sizes of deer.
On the subject of nosler ballistic tips as someone mentioned ealier, shot a fallow once at 40yds and the bullet disintegrated on the shoulder so stopped using them, will probaly try them on the lighter game and use the 120's for the big stuff.
does anyone have a theory on the hollow point versus soft/spire point,my thoughts are that the hollow point will expand far better than any non~cavity bullet heads, the bullet must expand on 2 points 1 deformation of bullet (ie hitting bone) or the sudden influx of liquid (blood etc)into the bullet cavity which must be under pressure due to the velocity, this event cannot be enjoyed by any other bullet other than a hollow point.
look forward to your view points!

thanks again

Griff

Griff,

You are correct in principle that a hollow point should be more susceptible to hydraulic action than an ordinary softpoint; at least the action will be inside the jacket instead of on the lead tip. The complication is that some hollow points have very tiny apertures and hypothetically could become clogged with hair or skin, or simply crush closed on impact.

Having allowed this possibility I really do not think that is what occurred in your cases. That velocity is much too high for a bullet of relatively light construction to simply not deform (even at 200 yds). It is not unusual for smallbore bullets to leave very tiny (indeed undiscoverable) entrance and exit wounds, even though they function perfectly inside the animal. I have seen this in the .243 Win. The size of the exit wound is not a reliable indicator of the bullet expansion. Probably the bullets expanded and their jackets folded back to create a pellet of roughly bore diameter prior to exiting. The 120 gr HP is designed to be a "tough" bullet and may have created a modest wound. This is consistent with the theorized behavior and the facts of the situation. I have seen very similar effects in a Nosler Partition of very small bore. Such loads can still be used successfully but you may need to put the shot lower in the thorax or hit the shoulder for the best effect. I suspect that there will be minimal temporary cavitation and radial damage, so neurologic trauma from a near miss of the spine is unlikely (as seems to have been demonstrated).

[This message has been edited by Harald (edited 09-04-2001).]

Surely the deer wieghed more than 10-15lbs. I've known cats that weighed that much! Maybe you meant 110-115lbs?

Hi youper
sorry to say that everything is not as big as it is over there. this was a roe doe with 2 youngsters that was causing
tree damage, so had to be culled.
the average weight of a fully grown roe in our area is only 25~35lbs.
we have some big reds that quite easily reach 300~350lbs,the 120gn works well on them!!!
Griff

Griff,

I agree with Harald. It is very unlikely that the hollow point failed to deform at the impact velocities of a 25-06 at 200 yds. It would appear that the deformation was insufficient to cause a quick death due in large part to the wound channel missing the vitals.

It would not be very complicated to set up a test that could answer a number of questions. Using a box that is approximately 1' square and 2'long and very wet newspaper as the test media, set up an initial layer that is about 1/2" to 3/4" thick. Use spacers to set up a distance that is equivalent to the width of the deer's chest. Then place a second layer that is 1" thick. Use the spacers again to set off a distance of about 6" and place 10" of media as a projectile catcher. Shoot from approximately the distance that you shot at the deer. Make sure that you aim so that the bullet's path stays in the media box and goes between the spacers. The resulting wound channel should be enlightening. Look for fragmentation, core/ jacket separation and any signs of tumbling.

If the wound channel were lower in the deer so that is passed through lung tissue between the chest walls, we would set up a continuous media for the initial depth.

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Warren Jensen

Warren@lostriverballistic.com
lostriverballistic.com

[This message has been edited by Warren Jensen (edited 09-04-2001).]

Hey Griff, It has taken me awhile to respond because I wanted to ask a buddy about that 25cal 120gr Hornady HP. Come to find out, he never tried it, so that was a waste of time.

However, I've always had excellent performance with Hornady Bullets of various sizes. Some of them are "tough bullets" and just work best when stuck into a shoulder.

But, it does sound like you could have had a bit better performance with a much lighter weight bullet for that Roe Deer.

The reason I'm posting is to ask if you have tried developing a Load around either a 75gr or 87gr Bullet for use in the same rifle?

Some of my rifles will shoot two different weight bullets (after some Load development) with no change in the Horizontal group positioning. There is a difference in the Vertical position, but that is fairly simple to keep up with after you develop a Drop Chart for it. And if the shot is close enough, it is no concern at all.

From my experience (but not with that 25cal 120gr Hornady HP), a bit lighter bullet for that size critter would tend to anchor it in place, but it will also tear-up a bit more meat.

Oh yes, if you decide to develop a Load for a lighter bullet and one brand will not shoot to the same Horizintal group position as the 120gr Bullet, try either another brand of bullet or a different Powder.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

Sorry Griff, My responses was thinking of the animal listed as being 10-15 pounds as that being a whitetail that was 110-115. I guess with that light an animal and ant type of fairly tough bullet at 25-06 speed you'd end up with a lot of blow through and not much expansion.

I got long winded about my opinion and had the wrong idea in mind the entire time.

My guess would be that a 25-06 would work wonders on that lil game animal, loaded with a nice Sierra 85 grain HPBT. It is a "GameKing" I believe, but I'm not positive of that, but I do have a Sierra part number of 1530 on that in my reloading log. I have used it on 'yotes and even on 'chucks. Great results.

***Sorry I gave the WRONG SIERRA #, It should be the #1615. 90 grains. I looked at the wrong spot in my log.***

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Live Free! Madison, Jefferson and all the boys paid for it, and so did our very own fathers.

[This message has been edited by 1LoneWolf (edited 09-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by 1LoneWolf (edited 09-06-2001).]

Hey 1LoneWolf, I might be wrong, but I think that 85gr Sierra #1530 is a 6mm.

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Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills, Hot Core

HotCore,

You are as right as could be. I just ammended the post. Looking at the wrong damn spot in my log. #1615 is the projectile I was speaking of. Thanks for catching my error before someone wasted money on the wrong bullet.

Good shooting, 1LW

Griff,

As usual were seeing an example of extreme opposites....120 to 85 gr. bullets...

Unless these little deer are just vermin, I wouldn't use a varmint bullet on them as they will completely destroy the animal..

Moderation is what you need and stay away from hollow points in rifle bullets for big game...

Shoot a 100 gr. bullet at "moderate" velocity ( 2700 FPS comes to mind )for these little deer...I would go with the Sierra 100 gr. softpoint or something simular to start with and might vari from there, depending on results....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Gentlemen, If we put this in simple terms
isn't the bullet just going too fast for an animal that small? A friend of mine shot a
bull elk from 35 yards ,same shot placement,
with his 30-06 and a soft point bullet. He worked up a maxed out compressed load that blew through so fast it had no time to expand. he actually had to shoot it three times to get it to drop. The exit holes were
no bigger than the entrance ones and they went through 4-5 times more tissue than would be on these Roe deer.

What say Ray, would'nt that be right?

Barry

Barry,

The answer is no. The idea that "it was going too fast to expand" does not account for the physics involved. The higher the impact velocity the greater the reverse load on the front of the bullet. If it is going to expand at a lower impact velocity then it is very much more likely to expand at a higher velocity. This greater load or greater force may cause unexpected or unwanted things to happen, but it will not increase the chance that nothing will happen. A one caliber exit hole may indicate a whole range of bullet performance. Analysis of the internal wound channel will help you understand the true nature of what happened. This range of performance can vary from no expansion to core jacket separation and the core going through the opposite side.

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Warren Jensen

Warren@lostriverballistic.com
lostriverballistic.com

[This message has been edited by Warren Jensen (edited 09-10-2001).]