quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Hey - I'm not fired up!!

quote:

Did tnekkcc actually engage in debate with an Ass Clown ...??

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

Check out the FEA at Varmit Al's

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

Check out the FEA at Varmit Al's

Thanks for that link SR. I have read through it a couple of times now and need to study it more but what I got out of it is that a low Friction Coefficient can slightly increase bolt thrust and slightly decrease thinning at the web that causes case head separations. But that like dj said my Flitzing will not lower the FC enough to get anywhere near the dangerous levels.

Certainly using Scotchbrite would create the opposite effect and makes for a consistant but high FC surface. Believe me you can feel the difference when chambering and extracting though and the rough finish picks up everything from oil on your fingers to dust in the air. In a DGR situation the Flitzing would be beneficial.

Flitzing is not as bad as oiling IMO.

Wonder if Scotchbrite and then Flitz?

quote:

In this discussion I don't think we've mentioned yet the other reason that Oiled rounds is a bad idea. It's the same reason that Machine Guns that used Oiled rounds were failures in battle. The reason is that oiled rounds pick up sand and grit and can pretty quickly jam up your rifle. The MG's like the Italian Breda's started jamming up quickly in the desert because of sand sticking to the rounds and gumming up the works. It probably wouldn't be as big a problem with a hunting rifle but if something did happen it would probably be at the worst time, like on a hot windy day with a Cape Buffalo charging at you or something. We just don't need lubed rounds for any practical reason other than maybe fireforming, why introduce an unnecessary variable that can cause all sorts of problems?........

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

In this discussion I don't think we've mentioned yet the other reason that Oiled rounds is a bad idea. It's the same reason that Machine Guns that used Oiled rounds were failures in battle. The reason is that oiled rounds pick up sand and grit and can pretty quickly jam up your rifle. The MG's like the Italian Breda's started jamming up quickly in the desert because of sand sticking to the rounds and gumming up the works. It probably wouldn't be as big a problem with a hunting rifle but if something did happen it would probably be at the worst time, like on a hot windy day with a Cape Buffalo charging at you or something. We just don't need lubed rounds for any practical reason other than maybe fireforming, why introduce an unnecessary variable that can cause all sorts of problems?........

1. This discussion has proved that shooting a round with small amounts of oil on the case does not blow up rifles. Reduced loads for fireforming are one thing. A steady diet of full power loads is another.
2. No one ever advocated taking either a machine gun or a hunting rifle into dusty condition with oiled rounds. Read your point number 5
3. No one ever advocated hunting with oiled rounds
quote by SR4759 "It would not bother me in the slightest to shoot oiled cases with max loads" , not hunting loads? OK but you did say Max loads didn't you.
4. Varmint Al's data shows that bolt thrust is increased slightly but it also reduces stretching of brass. Varmint Al's data primarily discusses surface finish of chambers but it also touches upon very low coefficients of friction consistent with smooth chambers and oiled brass. He also mentions that too low friction could be DANGEROUS.
5. In order to make some machine guns operate more reliably the designers have added design features like fluted chambers and oilers trying to ease extraction of fired rounds. Fluted chamber in roller locked actions were extremely sucessful in combat. Oiled rounds were complete failures.

My experience is that slightly oiled cases and highly polished chambers can be beneficial for improving fire forming, prevention of case thinning at the junction of the solid head and the case body. Prevention of thinning can improve the life of cases and prevent case head separations. With reduced loads this can make sense. The problem comes when you start recommending doing it with full power loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by WiNdTeCh:

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
So is there anyone who believes that the frictional coefficient of 260 brass (already very low) is significantly reduced so as to partially negate the 45,000 to 60,000 PSI expanding the case in all directions ...??

BTB - the case recoils in the chamber long before it expands and then obturates at the mouth. If your case construction is heavy enough or you pressure low enough radial expansion of the case is ZERO.

Believing Flitz increases bolt thrust = believing the Earth is Flat. Sounds right but it isn't ....

If you don't think that brass sticking to sides of a chamber decreases bolt thrust why don't you just go head and lube up your rounds with some nice oil and let a few go. I'd STRONGLY suggest you pull the trigger with a string.
If the brass doesn't stick to the sides of the case walls I wonder why H&K goes through the trouble of fluted chambers on their roller-locked weapons????

I doubt if Flitz in particular greases up cases enough to be an issue but there IS a reason you don't want an oiled chamber. Use your common sense.................................DJ

Agreed... also.... Look up how a semi-auto weapon works.... why do you think it is that the bolt doesn't come back right away.... the case expands first to hold it in the chamber until the bullet leaves and then the bolt comes back.... flitz up your brass and throw them in an AR-15... let me know how your accuracy is...

When did semi-auto come into play here ..?? Look up ..?? Windy - your semi-auto stays locked up cause it's not a blowback design. Case friction has nothing to do with the operating system.

Lube in the chamber of a semi' auto is only a problem if it attracts grit which might cause difficulty feeding. HK flutes the chambers of rifles for the same reason you flute a bolt - to clear dirt etc. Your HK will function jut fine with a lubed and unfluted chamber.

If either of you own a rifle that might detonate cause the chamber is lubed I suggest you take it back to Toys-R-Us where you bought it ...

Seriously - the two of you shouldn't be reloading - way above your pay grades.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
You're obviously overpaid since you don't understand the meaning of "over my/your paygrade". Nope no semi-auto I know of uses case wall friction as part of the operating mechanism. They may not use it as a part of the operating system (though even this is argueable with roller-locked recoil operated actions, but having friction on the case walls is just as important in a semi-auto to reduce bolt thrust and wear on the lugs as it is on a bolt gun.You haven't been reading much up there in the corn vortex eh ...??

Back to Toys-R-Us for you Windy!! So are you trying to be a jerk here? You seem to be doing a good job of it

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
No one's gonna take you two seriously when you keep making fools of yourselves with your unsubstantiated theory. Find us a white paper from a reputable source (preferably several) and you won't look so ridiculous. Or perhaps you should produce some sort of the same evidence you request here to prove your unproven assertions. Is it the height of Arrogance to assume that you are correct without proof or simply bad logic? At least SR4759 showed a link to a paper supporting his use of lube for fireforming rounds. You should also note that this paper suggest that very low chamber friction could be DANGEROUS and carefully noted that he wasn't recommending oiling rounds or chambers.

By your own admissions here neither of you understand how your personal firearms function. You'd think a couple guys purveying some advanced theory in mechanics would have disassembled their personal firearms at least once ...?? For Cleaning ...?? Geez I guess some of my rifles were at least disassembled before I built them.

If you had you'd have noticed that your AR-15 and yor Mini-14 are gas guns. DUHHHHHHNo gas - no open. It should be obvious to even rude jerks like you that that bolt stress is occuring before the action is unlocked and open, it's going to occur at peak pressure before they are unlocked.Case friction doesn't have anything to do with their operation. But it is an important factor (if not part of the actual operation) in the operation of Roller-locked actions like my H&K 91, 93 and CZ 52Unless of course you have too much friction and then you might have a problem with extraction.

quote:

1. This discussion has proved that shooting a round with small amounts of oil on the case does not blow up rifles. Reduced loads for fireforming are one thing. A steady diet of full power loads is another.
Full power makes no difference if your action is not marginal. Go read Varmint Al's data.

2. No one ever advocated taking either a machine gun or a hunting rifle into dusty condition with oiled rounds.
Read your point number 5

Re-read this point Then figure out that 5 was discussing design features that ease extraction. Ease of extraction is good.
You have never tried an oiled round so what is your point?

3. No one ever advocated hunting with oiled rounds
quote by SR4759 "It would not bother me in the slightest to shoot oiled cases with max loads" , not hunting loads? OK but you did say Max loads didn't you.

It is not necessary to shoot max loads with oil though it does not hurt a thing. Oiling the case takes a little time. Once the case has been fire formed oiling is not of any consideration in a bolt gun with a smooth chamber.
You have never tried an oiled round so what is your point?

4. Varmint Al's data shows that bolt thrust is increased slightly but it also reduces stretching of brass. Varmint Al's data primarily discusses surface finish of chambers but it also touches upon very low coefficients of friction consistent with smooth chambers and oiled brass. He also mentions that too low friction could be DANGEROUS.

Yeah he mentions it with a coefficient of friction that is not even attainable.
So what is your point?

5. In order to make some machine guns operate more reliably the designers have added design features like fluted chambers and oilers trying to ease extraction of fired rounds. Fluted chamber in roller locked actions were extremely sucessful in combat. Oiled rounds were complete failures.

Hmm no they weren't I knew someone that was nearly killed by a Nambu LMG.
The design aspect just went over your head.
Name two design features that can ease extraction.
1. Oiled cases
2. Fluted chambers.

My experience is that slightly oiled cases and highly polished chambers can be beneficial for improving fire forming, prevention of case thinning at the junction of the solid head and the case body. Prevention of thinning can improve the life of cases and prevent case head separations. With reduced loads this can make sense.

The problem comes when you start recommending doing it with full power loads.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

1. This discussion has proved that shooting a round with small amounts of oil on the case does not blow up rifles. Reduced loads for fireforming are one thing. A steady diet of full power loads is another.
Full power makes no difference if your action is not marginal. Go read Varmint Al's data. Do you mean the parts where he says he is not recommending the use of lubed rounds and that too low chamber friction Could be DANGEROUS!

2. No one ever advocated taking either a machine gun or a hunting rifle into dusty condition with oiled rounds.
Read your point number 5

Re-read this point Then figure out that 5 was discussing design features that ease extraction. Ease of extraction is good.
You have never tried an oiled round so what is your point? jWhy do you keep repeating this UNTRUE Statement. I HAVE shot lubed rounds, I said so in an earlier post, So why would you repeat this FALSE STATEMENT? I had some loads that I forgot to remove sizing lube from. When I noticed stiffer than normal bolt lift I concluded that it was from the excessive lube and have taken care to not do so again.l

3. No one ever advocated hunting with oiled rounds
quote by SR4759 "It would not bother me in the slightest to shoot oiled cases with max loads" , not hunting loads? OK but you did say Max loads didn't you.

It is not necessary to shoot max loads with oil though it does not hurt a thing. Oiling the case takes a little time. Once the case has been fire formed oiling is not of any consideration in a bolt gun with a smooth chamber.
You have never tried an oiled round so what is your point? Again you repeat a FALSE STATEMENT. Reread earlier posts.

4. Varmint Al's data shows that bolt thrust is increased slightly but it also reduces stretching of brass. Varmint Al's data primarily discusses surface finish of chambers but it also touches upon very low coefficients of friction consistent with smooth chambers and oiled brass. He also mentions that too low friction could be DANGEROUS.

Yeah he mentions it with a coefficient of friction that is not even attainable.
So what is your point? The exact quote is "Friction this low is probably not physically possible and could be dangerous", note that he said "probably not" vs "is not" and he put the dangerous in red to emphasize the possibility

5. In order to make some machine guns operate more reliably the designers have added design features like fluted chambers and oilers trying to ease extraction of fired rounds. Fluted chamber in roller locked actions were extremely sucessful in combat. Oiled rounds were complete failures.

Hmm no they weren't I knew someone that was nearly killed by a Nambu LMG. This is completely false logic. There were lots of Germans in WW I that were killed by our troups using the dreadful Chauchat Machine gun, but that doesn't mean the Chauchat was probably the worst machine gun in history. The Japanese type 11 machine gun was well known for jamming in the presence of the slightest bit of dirt etc.
The design aspect just went over your head.
Name two design features that can ease extraction.
1. Oiled cases
2. Fluted chambers.

My experience is that slightly oiled cases and highly polished chambers can be beneficial for improving fire forming, prevention of case thinning at the junction of the solid head and the case body. Prevention of thinning can improve the life of cases and prevent case head separations. With reduced loads this can make sense.

The problem comes when you start recommending doing it with full power loads.

No the Japanese already proved this does not break a firearm with full power loads. The Italians proved it does not break a firearm with full power loads. These are all examples that prove my point. The 6.5 and 7.7 Arisaka as well as the 6.5 Carcano were all underpowered low pressure rounds. The 7.7 was only loaded to 42,000psi. All of these military rounds were loaded to about the same pressures you would use for your fire forming loads and nowhere near the 60-62,000psi used in more modern cartridges.

With a bolt gun using fully fire formed cases and a smooth chamber there is no point in oiling a cartridge simply because it takes time.
1. Ease of extraction is not required with a smooth chamber.
2. The case is already fire formed so it will not stretch.

Your basis for your argument is like the Pope discussing sex.
You have no experience to base your argument upon.Again you are repeating a completely FALSE STATEMENT.

quote:

" 8. Do not oil cartridges, and be sure to wipe the chamber clean of any oil or preservative before commencing to shoot. Oil interferes with the friction between cartridge case and chamber wall that is necessary for safe functioning, and subjects the firearm to stress similar to that imposed by excessive pressure."

quote:

Originally posted by WiNdTeCh:
....It's your gun... It's your oil.... It's your lugs..... Take care.... THE END!

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Your original point was the gun will blow up if fired with oiled rounds. They don't blow up.
Machine guns were designed with oilers. They did not blow up. Maybe not the best designs for sandy conditions but they didn't blow up.

Empahsis: THEY DIDN'T BLOW UP AS YOU CLAIM.

Now you are dodging citing more modern cartridges. Show me where a gun has blown up due to oil on the cartridge case. You won't and you can't because it hasn't happened.

• No oil on case or in chamber, especially on an automatic (not that is will cause a problem, but why do it?
  
• Flitz or exceptionally clean or polished cases will not cause enough added bolt thrust to matter
  
• Flitz or exceptionally clean or polished cases reduce case thinning at the web to a small degree
  

• Oil in the chamber or on the case has been discussed enough and the 2 parties are not going to agree

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SR4759:
Your original point was the gun will blow up if fired with oiled rounds. They don't blow up.
Machine guns were designed with oilers. They did not blow up. Maybe not the best designs for sandy conditions but they didn't blow up.

Empahsis: THEY DIDN'T BLOW UP AS YOU CLAIM.

Now you are dodging citing more modern cartridges. Show me where a gun has blown up due to oil on the cartridge case. You won't and you can't because it hasn't happened.

quote:

Originally posted by WiNdTeCh:

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Well, I have no dog in this particular fight, so to speak, but I have never worried about it and never had any adverse effects. Let me elaborate....When I put a rifle, or pistol for that matter, away after a shooting session, I clean it and run a patch of Break Free through it without the bore guide in it. I do it to protect the bore and chamber from any rust or other nasties. Now when I get it out to shoot it again, I TRY to remember to run a dry patch down the barrel before I shoot it. Don't always remember, or get to. I do NOT take any special care to make sure the chamber is especially dry or free of Break Free, I just run a patch down. If it dries the chamber, fine, if not, that is fine too.

After tens of thousands of rounds through all of my barrels, some of which I have had to have re-barreled a couple of times, I have seen no ill effects. The smiths who do the re-barrel check for lug issues every time I send them back and there have been zero issues, and the accuracy is fine as well.

Maybe I've been lucky and maybe I have never left enough lube in the chamber to be an issue, but from my experience, which does NOT include oiling my ammo, to most reloaders it is a non-issue. I do not polish with Flitz either, but I may try it.

Botton line,for me, is that I just don't think it is a big enough issue to get anyone's panties in a twist about.

20 times is a lot different than 10,000 times... that's our point.... is oiled rounds over time will cause a problem.... not immediately...

quote:

Originally posted by WiNdTeCh:
yeah.... I never said anything that your saying has happened... all i stated was that oil on the brass or chamber will cause more pressure on the bolt and if you know anything about physics you will agree with me... if not... then you can live in your little world far away from this forum...

As for polishing... polishing doesn't cause a frictionless barrier... it's ok to polish, because by the time your barrel is shot out, your bolt lugs will be right there with it.. but oil will cut at least 15% off your bolts life... now you may find that your shooting HOT loads and your barrel will last 15% less than normal... so you may be ok. I will choose to let my bolt hold it's head space for accuracy and brass life reasons.........

quote:

Originally posted by WiNdTeCh:
yeah.... I never said anything that your saying has happened... all i stated was that oil on the brass or chamber will cause more pressure on the bolt and if you know anything about physics you will agree with me... if not... then you can live in your little world far away from this forum...

As for polishing... polishing doesn't cause a frictionless barrier... it's ok to polish, because by the time your barrel is shot out, your bolt lugs will be right there with it.. but oil will cut at least 15% off your bolts life... now you may find that your shooting HOT loads and your barrel will last 15% less than normal... so you may be ok. I will choose to let my bolt hold it's head space for accuracy and brass life reasons.........

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
[All you are doing is twisting the issue to suit your view without any personal experience. Your arguments seem to be getting more silly with each post. If you call information from dozens of firearms manufacturers and reloading manuals silly guilty as charged. I think instead of silly most intelligent people will realize that easily veryifiable information from major manufacturers is as about as solid as information you can verify over the internet is. Instead of personal slurs and insults I'm trying to present valid information for easily verifyable and trustworthy resources

Please understand that if a cartridge is oiled it does not generate more pressure. If oil flows into the bore enough to become even a partial bore obstruction it most certainly does Therefore it will not blow up a well made gun. According to firearms manufacturers it most certainly can This has been demonstrated as a design feature on machine guns. You attempted to discredit this using the dust collection issue which is not germane. You have not intentionally oiled cartridges nor you do not appear aware of the method or manner of using oiled cartridges. I will allow you to remain ignorant on that point. Again I presented easily verifiable references that show 2 things. 1 is that the machine guns that used oiled rounds also used low-powered rounds - very likely because the use of oil would have caused severe problems with high powered rounds. 2. All of the oiled round machine guns were unsucessful.

BTW I don't think you will find a single firearms manufacturer that endorses reloaded ammo either. Once again you are completely wrong. Quote from the Winchester 94 manual page 8 "Reload only after proper instruction and in strict compliance with instructions and data contained in current reloading manuals." Obviously Winchester is a major manufacturer and the model 94 is one of the most popular firearms ever made, They endorse reloading. - page 8 right side paragraph 3

So why don't you the following. Read all of the manufacturers warnings against use of reloaded ammo and the fact that their warranties are voided by the practice. Once you follow their instructions like a good little boy and quit reloading you will no longer need to post on this forum. As long as you post stupid stuff like a gun will blow up over a little oil I am going to respond. Never mind that you do not seem to be able to read and comprehend the value of the information on Varmint Al's web site. From Al's sight- "* Note: I am not suggesting using lubricant on ammunition brass." - this was in RED letters on Al's sight. The site you are trying to use to prove your point disclaims it in red. What part of this do you not understand??? Are you only reading the parts that you want to???

quote:

Originally posted by WiNdTeCh:
I can't help ignorance... You keep putting my name in the place of somebody else as well... putting words in my mouth...

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
[All you are doing is twisting the issue to suit your view without any personal experience. Your arguments seem to be getting more silly with each post. If you call information from dozens of firearms manufacturers and reloading manuals silly guilty as charged. I think instead of silly most intelligent people will realize that easily veryifiable information from major manufacturers is as about as solid as information you can verify over the internet is. Instead of personal slurs and insults I'm trying to present valid information for easily verifyable and trustworthy resources

Please understand that if a cartridge is oiled it does not generate more pressure. If oil flows into the bore enough to become even a partial bore obstruction it most certainly does Therefore it will not blow up a well made gun. According to firearms manufacturers it most certainly can This has been demonstrated as a design feature on machine guns. You attempted to discredit this using the dust collection issue which is not germane. You have not intentionally oiled cartridges nor you do not appear aware of the method or manner of using oiled cartridges. I will allow you to remain ignorant on that point. Again I presented easily verifiable references that show 2 things. 1 is that the machine guns that used oiled rounds also used low-powered rounds - very likely because the use of oil would have caused severe problems with high powered rounds. 2. All of the oiled round machine guns were unsucessful.

BTW I don't think you will find a single firearms manufacturer that endorses reloaded ammo either. Once again you are completely wrong. Quote from the Winchester 94 manual page 8 "Reload only after proper instruction and in strict compliance with instructions and data contained in current reloading manuals." Obviously Winchester is a major manufacturer and the model 94 is one of the most popular firearms ever made, They endorse reloading. - page 8 right side paragraph 3

So why don't you the following. Read all of the manufacturers warnings against use of reloaded ammo and the fact that their warranties are voided by the practice. Once you follow their instructions like a good little boy and quit reloading you will no longer need to post on this forum. As long as you post stupid stuff like a gun will blow up over a little oil I am going to respond. Never mind that you do not seem to be able to read and comprehend the value of the information on Varmint Al's web site. From Al's sight- "* Note: I am not suggesting using lubricant on ammunition brass." - this was in RED letters on Al's sight. The site you are trying to use to prove your point disclaims it in red. What part of this do you not understand??? Are you only reading the parts that you want to???

In Summary:

Wood's summary says it pretty well but:

-Use of oiled rounds presents potential hazards.
1. It can foul primers and powder potentially resulting in a stuck bullet and/or hazardous bore obstuction.
2. Oil flowing into the bore from an oiled chamber can result in a potential bore obstuction that can result in serious damage and/or injury to yourself and those around you.
3. Oiled rounds increase bolt thrust and can result in firearms damage and/or injury similar to those from excess pressure.

- Virtaully every firearms manufacturer instucts you to clean the chamber and bore of excess oil before shooting.

- Machine guns that did use oil rounds used low pressure rounds and all were failures on the battlefield.

Al's Varminting site does mention the use of oil to facilitate better case forming. However he mentions that very low friction could be dangerous and in red letters states "* Note: I am not suggesting using lubricant on ammunition brass.", people are going to read that as they want too but in the end even the site seeming to endorse oiling ammuntion disclaims recommending it.


IMO the use of Oiled rounds can be a dangerous and any potential benefits of "better case forming" is nowhere near worth the potential hazards. For fireforming I think instead of oiling ammunition I'll make a false shoulder for good headspacing instead of risking all the potential hazards of oiled ammunition.


Note: there is of course more data available. I tried to present easily verifyable references and resources that anyone here can double-check. I would encourage all reloaders to check these and as many other trustable and verifyable sources to form their own opinions.


Simply put, flitz makes nice pretty brass, oiling ammo is dangerous....................................................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

You are still offering opinions about something you know nothing about. You have no idea of my level experience so I've presented easily verifyable resources from major manufacturers etc. In this context my experience is irrelevant, check the resources.How do you know that you are not exceeding the design limits of your rifles when you reload for them? You don't. Actually I do, I own the easiest to use way to verify pressure of a reloaded firearm - A Chronograph. Simply put if using a listed powder and a listed charge if I'm getting the listed velocity it's highly probably I'm running at the listed pressure. - This might be an excellent subject for another long arguement on another thread.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

You are still offering opinions about something you know nothing about. You have no idea of my level experience so I've presented easily verifyable resources from major manufacturers etc. In this context my experience is irrelevant, check the resources.How do you know that you are not exceeding the design limits of your rifles when you reload for them? You don't. Actually I do, I own the easiest to use way to verify pressure of a reloaded firearm - A Chronograph. Simply put if using a listed powder and a listed charge if I'm getting the listed velocity it's highly probably I'm running at the listed pressure. - This might be an excellent subject for another long arguement on another thread.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
[It is pretty easy to tell you level of development.
You don't have any original thoughts about anything. Trying to pass off a chronograph as a pressure measuring tool is the mistake of a newbie.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
[It is pretty easy to tell you level of development.
You don't have any original thoughts about anything. Trying to pass off a chronograph as a pressure measuring tool is the mistake of a newbie.

I really think that your arguements would be more persuasive if they were backed by verifiable references than by personal insults.
I would again state that readers of these posts would be best served by checking some of the links posted and finding more data themselves than by just name calling.

I did start another post on using a chronograph as a guide to pressure. I would invite everyone reading this to check it out and hopefully make some well thought out responses that we can all learn from .......................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
My argument was backed by VarmintAl's engineering. VarmintAl's article is entirely based on a figures generated by a computer program. He did exactly ZERO actual pressure testing. A complete engineering test would include actual physical testing to verify the computer models. Maybe his computer model is 100% accurate - you DON'T KNOW until it is PHYSICALLY TESTED. They have incredible computer programs to design airplanes now don't they? They still TEST FLY though don't they.

Another example of a computer model for pressure estimation etc. is Quick-Load. It often works pretty well but I've seen it spit out some obviously erronious data too. It's a usefull tool but until I test the data I don't trust it completely, nor would I implicity trust Al's data until it's actually tested.

Tell me how many oiled cases you have actually tried? I've shot exactly as many oiled cases in my pressure testing as VarmintAL did in his. Got any real DATA. Do you mean like data from actual shooting instead of just running a computer model? Data not owner's manuals quotes. Those same owners manuals do not sanction reloading either. Some owners manuals do indeed not condone reloading - but some DO, like the Winchester 94 manual etc.How do you continue to condemn one practice without condemning the other if you are referencing owners manuals?Because they ALL tell you not to have oil in your chamber

quote:

In the end oiling rounds is just one of those things that too many bad things can happen while doing. I don't feel the small benefits you've observed justify the large amount of risk..................................DJ