Ok. Here's the setup. Remington 700 VS 26" .243 Win. barrel. Press is Redding Turret (Model 25), dies are Redding Competition Seating die and Redding Type 'S' F/L die. Shell holder is 'floated' by replacing metal retainer clip w/ proper size O-ring, and the dies are floated on O-rings. F/L bushing die has expander ball removed (decapping rod still in place) and slight amount of space (1/8-1/4 turn) btwn bushing and stem assembly to give the bushing some wiggle room (this has bit me in the past, so I double-checked it to be sure). I went thru and sized and trimmed the cases, ran the neck over an expander mandrel, ran a neck turner (K&M) around enough to clean up the necks about 75-80%, which gave a pretty consistent neck thickness of about 11 thousandths. Then the cases were ran thru the die w/ the neck bushing in place again.

At least in my mind, w/ all the farting around I've done so far, the brass should be in the realm of 0.001 to 0.002 *max* run out. In reality, I'm getting more like 0.002 to 0.004, on up to 0.006 on some cases.

Unfortunately, none of the local dealers stock Lee Collet dies, so it's going to be a special order thing, or most likely, I'll have to order them myself via phone or Internet. On the other hand, Wilson Tool & Die is less than 20 miles away, so I can pretty much get anything from there I need in less than a day or two, and I have been thinking about getting an arbor press anyway...

I guess I'm mainly hoping someone can look at what I've been doing, and see if anything glaring jumps out at them that I'm doing/using that would be causing the runout to resist going as low as I like, before I go either ordering a Lee Collet die, or sinking money into an arbor press and dies.

On one hand, the thought keeps popping into mind that perhaps it's the press, as it does seem to have some flex, but I honestly think that about 99% of the 'visible' flex is that the 1.5" MDF bench top has had enough of having a stinkin' heavy cast iron press clamped to it for most of the last five years. My .223 Rem. rounds have runout down btwn .001 and 0.002, and my .220 Swift rounds had even less, all using Redding Competition dies and seaters. Maybe it's something that doesn't manifest itself when working on the smaller cases? But then the .220 Swift isn't much smaller than the .243 Win....

Aaaarrrrgghhh... brain going into meltdown...

HHHHEEEELLLLPPPP!!!!!

(please?)

Monte

Monte~
You don't mention anything about the contact between shell holder and die. Except in one instance I never had much luck with floating the dies on the O rings and in that case I putzed around with the die to compress the ring just enough to hold it straight after relieving the pressure of the shell holder to the die. The O ring system was hit and miss for me and so I quit using it though a good friend uses it and consistently gets zero runout on FL sizing. I'm sure it has something to do with the pressure on the die when you adjust it. If there is NO pressure then I'm certain that is your problem possibly along with the flex you mention in your turret.

Why not try adjusting your die per manufacturer's instructions without the O ring on the die boss. Turn it in to butt up against the shell holder, the back off and screw it down another quarter turn, cinch down the lock ring while the die has full pressure, and try that.

You might also index your cases. Mark their orientation on the shell holder, then check the spot of the runout and see if it's consistent to the same spot. The try rotating the shell holder a half turn and check again. It could be the shell holder. After that then try indexing against the die backing the die off. If you can isolate the cause you can solve the problem.

I've had everthing from bad shell holders to die lock nuts causing runout which is why I quit the conventional presses and ultimately went to a Forster Coax. I doubt it's the die but then I've had a couple of bad ones through the years. Hope this helps.

Monte, I have done most of what you have done in the past & I haven't been able to make runout much better after turning necks till I shot them once. I think this is due to needing to expand them enough so the die can resize them right. I don't know if this helps or makes anysence but it has worked for me. Let me know if this works.

Thanks for the ideas so far guys. Keep them coming!

More info: The brass is once fired, in this gun. Mostly because of impatience at an earlier stage in this debacle, I did the neck turning *after* the cases were once-fired. For the life of me, I cannot remember what the runout was on the virgin brass or the fired cases before sizing. I will try some more fiddling w/ and w/o the O-ring, and see what develops. I'm somewhat hesitant to dial the die in to where it contacts the ram, as I was sizing for a few thousandths shoulder bump, or about 1.633" (I think the normal headspace figure for a .308 family case is 1.630", and my fired cases come out at 1.635"), and the die when screwed in to hit the ram pushes things back to like 1.620" or less.

Thanks again, and keep em coming!

Monte

I bought the metal for a deep draw house. They made tubes out of flat stock. Uniform metal was the key.

My point is that if the wall thickness of your new brass varies even the best sizing efforts will not be uniform. So check your neck wall variance around the clock and correct that before you start.

If your using a coventional expanding button then lubricate the necks very well. Draging even a carbide button over dry or uneven lubricated metal cannot be a uniform process.

monte,
weather you set the die to touch the shell holder 1/4 turn more or backing the die away from the shell holder, make sure that the ram is all the way up against the sizer die before you tighten the lock ring. that way the sizing die will be square to ram.

Milanuk,
If I may interject a note of experience here about turret presses. I own an older turret press and check the adjustments regularly. ALL turret presses have some play - that is why they have the pressure adjustments on them. Make sure to eliminate as much clearance between the pressure adjustment screw and the turret as possible. After making sure that the adjustments on the press are optimal them all the other standard checks and cures have a better chance of working.

PaulS

Monte,

This link may be of use to you. Let me know if it works for you. I've tried this with a couple different die sets and calibers, and for whatever reason, it seems to work.

I think the issue in my case was uneven case rim thickness, which causes the case to be pulled aside on its way out of the die. By turning the case in the manner described in this link, I believe I was putting the "high" part of the case rim in the opening of the shell holder--thereby negating the effect it had on pulling the case aside.

http://www.reloadbench.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000387.html

Let us know what you discover...

Dan

Monte. Neck turning after one firing is the RIGHT way to do it. Have you measured runout of a fired case? If the chamber is correct it should be near perfect. My best advice would be to purchase Lapua brass and many problems will just go away. Some American mfg brass is just trash and all attempts to make a silk purse from a sows ear will prove an exercise in futility. Regards

Well, I've been digging thru things, and talking a little w/ a local benchrest Wizard. He's looking to see if he has a set of Wilson dies in .243 Win that I can borrow to check if they will 'help' the problem. Also, I'm going to go back thru things w/ a fine tooth comb, and look at running some brass back thru the dies in a different setup, and see if that helps things out. In any event, I won't be able to check any fired case dimenions until Friday or Saturday at the earliest, in case anyone is wondering what the holdup is

Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions,

Monte

Monte~
Try the Redding competition shell holders to get your shoulder setback correct. I still believe your dies are crooked in relation to the ram and shell holder. Those shell holders will enable you to adjust the dies properly and still have your correct setback. I'll bet money if you call Redding with your problem they will tell you EXACTLY what I'm telling you.

Monte,

I've been down this road recently with my M700 300 Ultra, here's what I found with mine, and it was definitive in my case.

The chamber is eccentric by about .005"!!

Measure them after their fired first off.

Use a black marker to mark the casehead on one edge. I place a line through all the "R's" in RP on my Remington cases. Now index them all the same in the chamber to the 3 O'clock position looking at it from the rear.

If all your lines are all in the same place when you measure maximum runout... you're in trouble!

If the lines are just random, you can fix it and it isn't the chamber causing it.

Eliminate this first.

The press issue, turret presses suck, sorry I had one, it was apparent right away. Here's why, they just can't be counted on because the stop on the back is either too loose or too tight... you never know which way the head is being tipped and is a guess at best. When you withdraw the case, there is now support under the front of the head like the back has either. The center pin is tight but there is still "Some" clearance there, this is what screws things up. Any other press wins hands down. I replaced mine with the 550 Dillon, I got used to the convieniance but now everything is pushed up square and straight.

I'm not saying to throw it away, just know the inherant problem is real.

If it was perfectly square, you could place a .013" shim on the shellholder to keep from getting the extra .013" bump on the shoulder when you put psi on the die then seat the lockring.

The way to check your deflection and minimize it on the head would is to use a dial indicator on a magnetic base attached to the press, then place the stem on the back of the die horizontally as you size a case. This will tell you they really do suck. You'll be able to set the stop on the back to minimize it... "on that die station", the others will be different, you'll just have to check them to see how much. Alot of work, good luck.

Now that you know it isn't you're chamber that is off you can check the die itself. The cases already have lines on the bases, just place them in the die with the line at the same spot and recheck runout. You have to me very methodical to find what's causing the RO, but keeping track of the position and amount of initial RO before any test is KEY.

If the die neck is eccentric, you'll find it too.

Sounds like you did a good job turning the necks and I'd suspect the K&M did fine. The full length sizing die should get rid of almost all RO if the necks are even thickness, as springback will be uniform.

Good luck, I feel for ya brotha.