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Dear All, I was playing with Quickload, and there are some loads that seem to promise "eternal bliss" in terms of velocity (never mind whether I'll be able to reach those numbers in reality). There are a couple of snags, though. It looks like the loads are pretty (if not "ultra") compressed - with load densities of 112% quoted... I looked in the Nosler Manual, and saw load densities for max loads (e.g. for a .30-06) be listed up to 113-114%. I remember crunching slow powders beneath 180-200 grs bullets pretty good in a .30-06. But are load densities of 112-113-114% realisticly doable?? Or, are such densities only possible using "tricks", such as ultra long drop tubes, etc?? Under normal circumstances, I don't particularly like loading compressed loads - loads in the 97-99% density appear to be attractive to me. Are there any practical drawbacks with heavily compresed loads - e.g. bullets start making their way out of cases over time?? The loads I have been looking at in Quickload seem to burn only about 97% of the powder in the barrel (of length available to me). So can I figure on a HUGE muzzle flash with such loads (powder is MRP)?? How high (or low) a percentage for powder burned in the barrel is 97%?? Is that the norm, or is it the "norm" for most loads to burn powder 100% in the barrel?? - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | ||
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if you really want to milk the most from your ammo then learning to deal with compressed loads is a must..... Personally I recommend magnum primers if you're going to work up to a heavily compressed load. Why?....I don't know.....I just do!...LOL In the end you might feel it's not worth the effort but you won't know until you get there.....I have a .308 Winchester throwing 180 grain accubonds from a 20" barrel at 2,740 FPS and there are no pressure signs at all....Using heavily compressed IMR-4064. The real trick is to compress multiple times.....make a die plug to fit your seater die and fill the case with a half charge (weighed only) and compress this powder in the press.....careful...it don't take a lot of compression! Then add the final half (again weighed) and compress this by installing the bullet on top of it. You may hear some crunching.....and it's eery!.....get over it! This procedure will net you a helluva lot more than AI reaming the chamber and if you don't want to continue it just load standard "book" loads..... I go to Hodgdon's website and find a load that looks great to start with but has a compressed load and is under 62,000 PSI.....there's a lot of them and start with that combination and work up compressing as you go. A rough rule of thumb is that you will add about 2,500 PSI and about 50 FPS for every grain safely added....and remember....you will certainly increase pressure but might gain no velocity.....a do recommend a chronograph to confirm you are getting something for your work.....as you may not and for a lot of work and extra powder. Hot Core will be along shortly to tell you to keep adding powder until you get the velocity you want.....but he's full of beans.....don't listen to him.....or Larry either!!!  But carefully work up watching for pressure signs.....it really works but you must not be afraid to compress loads. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Yeah! And start with a case full of Bullseye  Here is where the normally totally worthless HSGS can be of benefit. If you have enough "wire" tied to the Strain Gauge Fiasco, you can wrap it around and around and around and around(many MANY times) and strengthen the Barrel portion so when it does come apart "most" of the pieces will be retained. You can get one of your buddies to remove the Bolt from your Head.  ----- I've had pretty good luck getting extra really Slow Powder(not Bullseye) into Cases using a very l-o-n-g Drop Tube made from an Arrow Shaft. Never did try that Mid-Load Compression Cycle that Vapo described, but I can see where it would indeed help. Just have to be careful not to cause the Case Walls to Expand out during the Compression so the Case won't fit in the Chamber. Vapo has an excellent way of choosing which Powders would be candidates for this exercise. This type of Reloading is not for the Beginners - like the doughnut eating, radar runner. It is also a good idea to be completely aware of how Pressure Spikes become evident and when Pressure becomes Erratic, without relying on a "machine" to provide questionable data for you. ----- Yes, the Case Walls that have been "pushed out a bit" will continue to hold Pressure on the Powder and can result in the Bullet being Pushed forward. Neck Sizing can be ab assist in that after Firing the Case a few times the Case Walls will already be pushed out to almost the exact Chamber Dimensions. Here, you would need to be more careful about the Compression causing the Case Walls to Expand any at all, or they just won't chamber. ----- I've found Double Base Powders to provide the most impressive Muzzle Blast in my rifles. BL-C2 in a 350RemMag when shot during very low light conditions has the potential to blind folks on the Space Station. ----- What is a normal "Load Density %" in my rifles??? Not sure, but I do lean toward the Slowest Powders available for each Cartridge/Bullet combination. So..., I'd guess that would have me typically in the high end, 98%<->106% Load Density. You can not hear Powder rattling around in one of my Cartridges. ----- I also no longer even try using the "RL-Powders". Way too Erratic as I get near a SAFE MAX. But, lots of folks love them. Best of luck to you. | |||
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 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I beleive in a full case but avoid a compressed load. I seat the bullet .030" or closer (varmint) to the land. | |||
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My most accurate loads are compressed. It eliminates AOR burn rate variations. ****************** "Policies making areas "gun free" provide a sense of safety to those who engage in magical thinking..." Glenn Harlan Reynolds | |||
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For the most part, that works for me as well. I use a 8" drop tube & trickle it in. With med. to slow powders, depending on the bore size, it's not really much of an issue. I even switched to 7828ssc in my 260ai to make it easier to compress the charge. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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I'm a big fan of 7828ssc. It does a good job of pushing heavy bullets in the 300wsm and the good ole .243win. ****************** "Policies making areas "gun free" provide a sense of safety to those who engage in magical thinking..." Glenn Harlan Reynolds | |||
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a) Quickload is not always right about the volume of your case and the density of your powder. Do some experimentation to get your own correction factor for Quickload with that brass and that powder lot. b) Some powder compresses. Flake powder will compress like a hotel pillow fitting into your suit case. c) Some powder breaks sticks under compression and get a hair faster. d) Some powder will not compress. The ball powder H110/W296 has such a high bulk modulus [hard to compress] that the bullet will deform and get too fat to fit in the chamber throat. e) Some powders are fit into a case with some trickery. Pull down a Hornady light magnum cartridge and then try to fit the powder back in the case. It will not fit. | |||
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I have shot some lightly compressed loads in my 30-06, but not heavily compressed like you are indicating here. I shoot a lot of BP and have a drop tube. I tried using it with 4831, 4064, and 4350 in various cartridges. You can get a bit more smokeless powder into the case with a drop tube, just like you can with with BP. You can add approx 3 additional grains of powder in a case that will ordinarily hold 50 to 60 grains full to the base of the bullet. That is more than I can get by "lightly" compressing the load with a bullet. If you want to compress the load on top of using a drop tube, you are on your own. I have not tried that. | |||
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This is all very interesting! I developed a compressed load of Lil'Gun for my hornet. That powder compresses beautifully. To stop the powder from pushing the bullet out, I used a punch die I made and this worked a treat. I got the impression that compressing the powder in that shape and volume case, actually reduced the burn rate but at the same time reduced erratic combustion. Of course, compressed loads with Lil'Gun in the hornet are not uncommon - it's the 55gr bullet on top of it that is different! So, would other powders behave in a similar way in other cartridges? My interest is getting good range with a 303-25 on a MkIII action. (Pressure limitations - tell me more about HSGS - just kidding!)  I should mention, using a different case resulted in primer pocket expansion and primer 'riveting'. (That case got in inadvertently). Regards 303Guy | |||
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I put a pin gauge in a collet bullet puller and compress the powder in the case. [probably much like your punch die] I have double and triple compressed 800X and Power Pistol. I have always considered LIL'GUN uncompressible. I would think that LIL'GUN would just fatten out the case. | |||
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When it comes to compressing powders I have a bit of experience to a degree. A number of years ago when I decided to turn my 30-06 into a 30-06 Ackley Improved, I ran across a gentleman, here on this board who goes by the name of Ackley Improved User. He seemed quite knowledgeable about the cartridge so I started to research his info. He uses QuickLoad and emailed me a sizable amount of load data. The velocities were amazing to say the least. It did involve compressing some heafty charges to get to the speeds indicated. I called Hodgdon and talked to their techs. I did not talk about specific cartridges because I did not want to elicit a knee jerk reaction without the tech actually thinking about it. I asked about compressing powders which if slow enough and bullet was heavy enough could I compress an amount of powder which would fill the case to the mouth of case if slowly tricked in via a 8" drop tube. The answer was an definate "yes, just don't bang, hammer, jam, hit or do anything which would cause the powder to break up the sticks. By that he meant the only acceptable means of compressing the powder was the act of seating the bullet. I've since worked upto 72 gr of Rel 25 with a Nosler 180 AB/BT in my 26" Lilja barrel, Win cases, Fed 210M primers and hit 3100 fps before showing definate signs of pressure. My load is 70 gr for 2997 fps. My SD are in the single digits. I use the Redding body die to keep the shoulder in check and neck size with a Lee neck collet die so I don't work the entire body. Bullet seating to a certain length can be a challenge. It takes turning down the screw much more and it's never consistent, so you have to "work your way" to the correct OAL. Alan  | |||
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I can say with absolute confidence this is definitely not true.....what do they think "short cut" is? Further I can attest that the practice of multiple compressions is totally safe regardless of what some "tech" said at Hodgdons.....and if push comes to shove it can be proven! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Lil'Gun compresses beautifully. It forms a tight, compact 'wad'. If pre-compressed, it does not push the bullet out. I have never yet sized a hornet case (only the necks) and have not had any cases expanding. Regards 303Guy | |||
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Vapodog, Bad terminoilogy on my part.  I can't remember the exact terminoilogy the Hodgdon tech's used but it was akin to taking a flat end steel rod, inserting it into the case mouth and hitting it with a hammer,  thus crushing and compacting the extruded kernals.Hope my terminology is better this time.  | |||
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PM sent /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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That is because they send all the compressible powder down under and and incompressible to the US  | |||
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Your right about not breaking extruded granuales as it would have the same coating on broken section might change burn rate. I've never loaded that compressed or broken granuales so don't know if that just an old wives tale. VFW | |||
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VFW | |||
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I can attest to what GSSP has stated. Compressing slow-burning powders will produce maximum possible performance, while operating at pressures at or below 65,000 PSI. It not only works for 30-06 sized cases, but also for the big bores. With my .375 Ackley Improved I'm getting over 2900 fps (26.5" barrel) with 300 grain bullets using 94 grs. of Normal MRP. This is all I can handle - indeed, I don't see how a normal human being shoots a 375 RUM or 378 Weatherby loaded to the max. My latest project is a 338-06 Ackley Improved. I believe I can get 2900 fps with 225 gr Accubonds - that's 4200 ft# from an '06 case. I anticipate ~69 grs. of MRP will do it from a 26.5" barrel. Keep on compressing...AIU | |||
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