I noticed that the Federal brass that I have been using for loading my 375 h&h varies widely in weight....as much as 5 grns from the lightest to the heaviest in a batch. This is once fired brass that I have re-sized and trimmed to exactly 2.84".

Has anyone played with this variable? Does it have a significant effect on down-range results? Should I be sorting brass by weight, or is that a waste of time when it comes to a 400 yrd max hunting round?

As a side note, my bag of remington brass is not any better....but the Lapua brass for my 3006 is very tight...plus or minus a 10th of a grn for the most part.

Thanks. Merry Christmas!

If youwere shootin benchrest or longrange 600yrd+ it might make a little diffrence.
Heavier case do have less volume and may be slightly higher in pressure with the same load.
There are a few other varables I would work on before going to weighing the brass.
You can try an experiment. take a couple light cases and a couple heavy cases out of the same lot of cases and load them with a fovorite load and shoot a target at a distance you choose.
See wat it produces.
Dave

I have a fair bit of time on my hands and I have just started weighing brass and visually inspecting the mouths of the cases for uniformity of thickness. I use a jewellers scale to weigh them as I don't trust the products marketed for reloading.

I don't worry about what I use for hunting as there are larger variables in the field than cases, but for load development I use the most uniform cases. It's an anal thing ......

I don't think your Lapua is really THAT good. No brass is.
What is the weight of your H&H brass?
What does it vary as on percentage basis?

Remember that brass is 8X the density of powder.
A 5 grain difference in the weight of a H&H case is not much if there are not to many.
Weigh all the cases and sort them into groups of 1 grain each. You may find there are only a few heavy and light cases that can be used for working up loads for pressure.

A couple of years ago I weighed some 300WSM brass and sorted out cases that were very close in weight. I don't remember the variance now but it was a narrow range. I put all of the brass that was out of this narrow range in a separate batch. I loaded a number of test loads with both batches and shot them at 100yds and 200yds. In a factory chamber and at 200yds and under I found no difference at all. In fact I had a couple of the smallest groups with the batch with the widest variance in weight. I am sure with a benchrest gun with a tight chamber or at longer ranges it would probably make a real difference.

There are some relatively cheap digital scales that are perfect for doing tasks like this, I would never try to weigh cases with a balance beam scale and personally I think a jeweler’s scale is over kill for this task. I don’t know what 375H+H brass weighs but for this example they weigh in at 250.0 grains +/- 2.5 grains. All told that is a possibility of a 2% spread in the total weight, if that translates into an increase or decrease in actual case capacity is really anyone’s guess. If you were to sort the brass into say groups that weighed within .5 or 1.0 grains of each other you would shrink that weight difference from a potential 2% variation down to .2 or .4% variation of the case weight. I can’t prove conclusively that this translates into a difference in case capacity but my mindset is this helps make the difference between my plinking rounds and my “Match Grade” rounds. It only takes a few extra minutes to sort a pile of brass by weight and who know it may have a real world effect, maybe not, but in my mind it does have an effect and a lot of shooting at long distances is mental. My finished rounds are “Match Grade” or maybe that just makes me mental.

Sorting brass by weight for 400yd hunting loads is a waste of time. I do not sort brass for my 600yd service rifle loads and I do no load development. Most all highpower rifle records have been set or equaled with Lake City, Black Hills, or Federal factory match ammo. None of those cases are weighed. I trim to length once and load a weighed charge of powder with a Berger match bullet seated 0.010" from the chamber throat. These loads in my rifle will hold the 6" X-ring at 600yd. Good ammo is simple to load. It's the marksmanship of building a solid position without artifical support and wind reading that are difficult.

If anyone wants to shoot consistantly well at 400yd the first thing they should do is quit shooting from a table and chair. Learn to shoot well in sitting, kneeling, and standing position. Benchrest shooting is not marksmanship. The second thing is to load thousands of rounds of good ammo and practice shooting and your wind reading.

Weighing cases is a waste of time and effort. There is so much brass that is hogged off of a case that a tiny variance in the extractor groove cut could vary case weight by several grains. What matters is internal volume; but not by much. Load and shoot cases, and document where each case puts rounds (excluding pulled shots). Segregate cases that print together and you will have a good starting point.

Great info, thanks guys.

Just to get a bit more of a quantitative comparison than my initial "handfull" of brass run across the scale I compared 20 sized, trimmed and primmed federal 375 h&h pcs of brass that I had on hand against 20 30-06 lapua brass. the results were:

Federal 375 brass (once fired)

257.2
258.3
255.6
254.9
255.3
255.9
255.4
255.5
253.5
255.3
255.9
255.2
256.8
256.9
254.8
256.7
256.4
255.6
257.2
252.4

Lapua 30-06 (virgin, un-primed)

193.5
193.8
193.9
193.8
194.0
193.8
193.3
193.5
193.6
193.9
193.6
193.4
193.0
193.9
193.7
193.7
193.9
193.9
193.6
193.7

Mean:

Federal = 255.74 grns
Lapua = 193.675 grns

One Standard Deviation:

Federal = 1.32 grns
Lapua = 0.24682 grns

Furthest outlier from the mean:

Federal = +/- 3.34 grns
Lapua = +/- 0.675 grns

This is hardly an apples to apples comparison as they are different calibers and in different stages of their life cycle, but it does (in my interpretation) show a difference in quality control between the two types of brass.

However, after SR4759's comment that brass is 8X more dense than powder....it makes me re-thing whether or not it will make a noticeable impact down range, and if so, will you need a competition rifle and a 700+ yrds to see it?

quote:

Originally posted by Reverend Recoil: Learn to shoot well in sitting, kneeling, and standing position. Benchrest shooting is not marksmanship.

I’m not sure what shooting kneeling vs. shooting off of a bi-pod resting on a bench has to do with weighing cases, also shooting a hunting rifle with a bi-pod vs. a true bench rest rig that weighs 25 pounds and does not get touched much after being set up is not a fair comparison so I take some exception to your blanket statement that shooting from a bench is not marksmanship. I do agree that weighing brass may not make a huge or for that matter even a small difference and that one should practice a lot in multiple positions to become a true marksman.

Personally I reload for fun and as a hobby and not to see how many rounds I can turn out in an hour. It may take less than 10 minutes to separate an average sized pile of my brass by both head stamp and weight so for me that is not that big of a sacrifice in time. I cannot conclusively say that my efforts have a positive effect on my group size but likewise there is no proof that it doesn’t help. For every person that says weighing brass, bullets and powder charges makes a difference there will be someone else to say that it does not make a difference and vice versa. In the end we will all do what make us happy and we feel most confident in but the answer to the OP’s question is there is no absolute answer, it’s just personal preference and if you have 10 spare minutes I say why not weigh your brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
There is so much brass that is hogged off of a case that a tiny variance in the extractor groove cut could vary case weight by several grains.

Where the difference in weight comes from is impossible to know for sure, it could come from the extractor cut which would have nothing to do with case capacity, but it could come from case wall thickness and that will have some to do with case capacity and peak pressure.


In my mind set there would be no need to separate your Lapua brass, but the Federal brass is another animal and personally I would sort them into 1.0 grain groups, just my $.02.

quote:

Should I be sorting brass by weight,

Yes.

James, you've just demonstarted what benchrest shooters have known for a long time. Lapua makes some of the, if not THE most consistant brass avaliable.

You also replicated my experence with Federal Brass. It's weight consistancy SUCKS. Personally, it is the worst I've found.

It's a REAL pain is the ass & I don't shoot BR either. Soooo it's just a waste of my time.

With careful handloading, I can make all of my rifles shoot one hole 5 shot groups. Hell, my Rem 700 in .416 will shoot .57" for 5 shots and that is with Barnes TSX as well as the Banded Solids. The point being, I have not ever weighed a single case and don't plan to. I don't shoot benchrest or chase the one hole groups. I personally think that it is an un-necessary exercise.

There it is folks....if you want benchrest quality and continued prize/competition wining performance from your ammo and your picture taken with that fox, you will do EVERYTHING you can to produce uniform ammo...otherwise you just get to watch...like most of us.

For hunting or just popping beer cans it isn't needed or required.

Accuracy boils down to personal choice and level of accuracy required...even service rifle ammo is only good for about 1". I've weight sorted 1000's of LC 223 and 308 brass going back 30 or more years. Most lots were more uniform than some lots of Rem krap, but some lots were MUCH worse.

Only accurate rifles interest me...that means MUCH less than 3-5 shot half inch groups no matter what caliber...so I tune BOTH the rifle system AND the ammo.

ALL the rifles I build produce this level or they go down the road...I do have some stock military shooters that won't achieve this level but they are antiques and a few that will get close with prepped loads.

BUT...in all actuallity...it ISN'T the brass weight per se, but what the variations are INSIDE THE CASE, THE CASE VOLUME...a variation in brass weight usually means a variation SOMEWHERE in the brass volume and also usually means a variation in the INTERNAL VOLUME...THAT is the implication of the variation.

The only way to know for certain is to use a H2O volume weight distribution...which IS time consuming...weighing and sorting using a digital scale is quick and simple, only needs to be done ONCE and will eliminate high or low weight cases that WILL produce "flyers"...the same with weight/ogive sorting bullets.

BUT...just weight sorting brass alone ISN'T going to do you much good if you don't do the rest of the "benchrest" prepping that goes along with producing an accurate rifle. THIS aspect is the time consuming job that most shooters aren't willing to do.

Bottom line...weight sorting of brass isn't of ANY value if you don't do the rest of the process...but if you like those bragging bugholer groups, you will do what is required...if not, you're still in good company.

5gr variation in belted mage cases isn't unheard of...those are big cases with lots of brass...look at what a 5 gr drop of water looks like to see just how much it is.

That's equal to about 5 drops out of the bottle I use for H2O volume sorting...basically about a 1/2" dia bubble. It isn't very much, but consider the volume a pea takes up missing or added to the volume of your case.

I guarantee that amount will make a difference in velocity AND accuracy. This esoteric idea is also something the average shooter NEVER thinks about and never enters the mind when looking at the groups from a large cal rifle...and most of the time NEVER impacts the USE of the ammo.

It's your decision.

Luck

Foobar
Five grains of brass is much smaller than 5 grains of water when comparing volumes.

The specific gravity of cartridge brass is 8.5.
The specific gravity of water is 1.

Water & smokeless powder have about the same specific gravity. So 1 grain of water takes up about the same volume of 8.5 grains of brass.

"Shooting from a bench isn't marksmanship" Next they will claim that shooting from a pickup isn't hunting.
Also observed that when group sizes are discussed the first liar hasn't a chance.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
I don't think your Lapua is really THAT good. No brass is.
What is the weight of your H&H brass?
What does it vary as on percentage basis?

Remember that brass is 8X the density of powder.
A 5 grain difference in the weight of a H&H case is not much if there are not to many.
Weigh all the cases and sort them into groups of 1 grain each. You may find there are only a few heavy and light cases that can be used for working up loads for pressure.

I have used tens of thousands of Lapua brass and it is that good. How many have you used???

Not to get things too stirred up, Boss Hoss, but I use RWS, Lapua and Norma brass for all my highest accuracy use rifles, also in large quantities AND measured 10 to 100% of each lot...RWS and Norma are the most uniform and produce the best accuracy...WITHOUT having to do any case prep...

Lapua is almost as good but not quite...the last two 100 case batches of 223 and 284 brass had a 2.5 gr variation in weight and 0.002" variation in neck walls, and a couple thou in length...only for a few cases...still plenty good for just loading up and go kill sage rats out to 4-600 yds.

This ISN'T bad mouthing Lapua, just presenting some facts, but I do have to agree with SR4759...NOTHING IS PERFECT.

SR4759...Yes, you are correct, but that fact doesn't have anything to do with INTERNAL ENCLOSED VOLUME. The case brass has 3 dimensions to expand into while the internal case volume has only two...it is enclosed on 3 sides so it can only fill to the case walls and then move upwards to the end of the case.

It wouldn't matter if the case was made of wood, glass or pie dough...we are talking about a SPECIFIC CUBIC VOLUME, a 3 dimensional construct, length, width and height, and using water as the measuring agent because it just happens to work great...you could use ANY other liquid...I used to use kerosene to measure volumes on engine heads to measure the "squish" volume, because kerosene was much "thinner", didn't rust the metal and was a good cleaner.

Case volume is measured usually in ci(cubic inch) or cc/ms(cubic centimeter or the equivalent milliliter). 1 cc = 1 ml = 1 gram. 1 ci = 1 gram = 16.4 cc = 15.4 grains, so 5 gr = slightly over 1/3 gram.

The difference in weight is/has been equated to a difference in case VOLUME...heavier case have less volume and vis versa...which has also been shown to not be totally correct all the time, but often enough to accept as valid.

To convince yourself just take two belted mag cases that have a 5 gr difference in weight. Count how many drops of water it takes to equilize the weight. One drop of water is roughly equal to 1 grain of weight...then you have to visualize what size a 5 ml drop is equal to. I guessed at pea size...but how big is a pea...pick the size what works for you.

This is one of those esoteric arguments that is basically equal to doodly squat in the real world as has been proven time after time on game animals.

The REAL reason for doing all this "stuff" is to achieve a high level of UNIFORMITY in both the rifle and ammo, which translates to higher levels of UNIFORM accuracy and group sizes.

I always wonder about these kinds of discussions...and the web is full of the same questions on every forum I've been too.

Check out ANY high quality, high expectation target shooter and ask them what they do...you will get many different answers, BUT, you will ALWAYS find that the highest uniformity in both rifle and ammo is basic to winning and shooting very small groups...and there are very few "secrets".

Luck

Lapua brass IS that good. I have some .223 "Dakota" match brass that was made by Lapua that is spot on! Is the extra expense warranted for hunting? IMO, no but that's a decision each of us has to make. That's why you have these dorks driving around in Hummers.
IMO, everyone should weigh brass as well as shine and uniform primer pockets and trim to length after every firing. They should do it at least until they learn that it is an exercise is futility. Until then, you can assume a holier than thou attitude and maintain that you want your ammo to be all it can be.
If you want to be a better shot, use the time that you would be doing that silly shit, to dry fire off of the kitchen table.