How many use a chronograph? Is it needed? I have been loading handgun loads for about a year now and have thought about buying one but then was told it was not needed

I've had a Chrony since they first came out. While it may not be absolutely needed, I find it is an invaluable aid in reloading for rifles. I have no experience with pistols.

To reload without a Chrony, is to fly without an altimeter and compass.

[ 06-03-2003, 21:47: Message edited by: Terry Blauwkamp ]

It's was the best $100 I have spent on reloading. You can't tell what your load is doing unless you have one.

It's also the final safety measure in your reloading. If you see that you're getting speeds way above where you think you should be, that usually means your pressures are spiking and you should back off.

It also lets you know which of your loads are most consistent.

Doing serious handloading without a chronograph is like inflating a tire without a pressure gauge, driving without a speedometer or making clothes without a tape measure -- choose your analogy. You can probably do it, but you just don't know what you're getting.

Ditto what they all said! - Dan

I used one up until a buddy of mine shot it. I'm currently waiting for him to replace it. But as a reloader they are the finishing step in load development and without one your loads FPS is simply a guess.

[ 06-04-2003, 20:49: Message edited by: Handloader ]

I use three of them, one Chrony Gamma Master and two Chrony F1's.

They aren't really required, as is a lot of other stuff we eventually manage to force ourselves to believe are a necessity. BUT...they are a lot of fun to play with.

I reloaded for around 20 years before I finally broke down and bought my first one.

reloading without a chrono is like driving without a speedo...

sure, you can guess at it

i've used one for 10+ years
jeffe

I agree with all that has been said and will add one other. "Reloading without a chronograph is like swimming naked, you are liable to get a bite, in the wrong place at the wrong time". I reloaded and hunted very successfully many years without one, however I never realized how blind I was, and how lucky I was on occasion. Those few times I was not lucky, I now know why. The knowledge you gain from them will make you a much more lucky and successful hunter. Good shooting.

Best thing is when you arrive at the range, set your chrono up, and find out that the battery is empty.

Terry Blauwkamp said it best first.

If I had to either give up my reload manuals or my chronograph, I'd let go of the manuals first.

Manuals tell me what should be happening. The chrony tell me what IS Happening.

Manuals are a guideline for all rifles. A chrony is the truth for that rifle that you are shooting over it.

Considering I can get a chrony for the price of not a real fancy scope, or I can buy several of them for the cost of one Leupold 3 x9.

It amazes me on how many guys I see at the range, who I know from seeing them a lot and talking to them, of how many rifles they have and how expensive a scope they have to have on each one, and how they have to shoot only the latest trendy or high tech bullet, and then they are too cheap to buy a $75.00 Chrony! and they ask could they check a few loads over mine.

When I quit laughing at the irony of it, I start laughing again when I watch their reaction that their 7Mag or 300 Mag is nowhere near as fast as they thought it was, and then they start realizing why they missed that deer or elk at 800 yds, ( that they had no business ethically shooting at anyway).

Spend the $75.00 bucks, which you will never miss, but you will wonder why it took you so long to decide to get one. Or laugh at yourself for even debating it.

We all need to face the fact that the loads and velocities for identical sets of components are all over the place in the load manuals. I know of several start loads in one manual that are max or over in one or more others. The pressure and velocity you get when using only a manual is more likely than not to be plus or minus 5% different from the manual, and there is better than one chance in 10 the it is plus or minus 10%.

On top of that, there are several popular slow burning powders for mag revolvers that DECREASE velocity when you increase the charge beyond a given point. Two powder labs and one bullet manufacturer indicated that when their loads are used in a variety of firearms that chrono velocity predicts pressure plus or minus 2% nine out of ten times. This is not true for revolvers, due to cylinder gap variations, but it is still twice as good as the manual data.

If you use the exact same components as those listed in a manual velocity = pressure. We should be tracking pressure USING velocity...pressure is far more important. This you get from a chronograph and at least as accurate as a strain guage, if not more so.

Without a chronograph I used to "think" I had developed some good loads. Then I got one and realized exactly which ones were and which ones were not so great. Now I "know" when Ive developed a good load and which guns of mine like which powders!

It can also be a very revealing tool where guns themselves are concerned.
Ive had mine for about a year now I guess, and have found that one of my oldest guns (a pristine savage 99) develops velocity very easily and that two others that I had considered to be in exceptional condition actually have marginal bbls at best.

My chrony is just another neccessary tool for reloading. I gives lots of needed information.

I reloaded pistol (9mm) for years without one. In the last few years, I started loading for rifle. I started borrowing one, then planning my trips to the range when I knew my buddy was bringing his and i finally bought a Chrony. Best 100 you can spend on reloading.

I have not used mine in years and I don't know if it still works.

I compare pistol loads velocities by comparing recoil.
If I can't tell the difference, then it is insignificant.

I compare rifle loads at 200 meters.
If the velocity is higher, the POI will be higher.
If the velocity varies, there will be vertical string.

"if the velocity varies there will be a vertical string"-Not at all true.My most accurate load has larger velocity variations than some other loads yet it results in smaller groups.Some loads with the smallest velocity variations result in larger groups(both vertically and horizontally)

"if the velocity varies there will be a vertical string"-Not at all true.My most accurate load has larger velocity variations than some other loads yet it results in smaller groups.Some loads with the smallest velocity variations result in larger groups(both vertically and horizontally)
"if the velocity is higher POI will be higher"Again not true.Sometimes adding a grain of powder will result in a lower POI even though the velocity increases.

socal hunter,
I got along without a chronograph for a long time. Once I got one, I discovered just how useful one can be. For a long range shooter, it can help answer many questions. For a short range hunter or pistol shooter, I don't think it would be of much assistance. I hope that this is of some help. Good luck.

"To reload without a Chrony, is to fly without an altimeter and compass."

"Doing serious handloading without a chronograph is like inflating a tire without a pressure gauge, driving without a speedometer or making clothes without a tape measure."

"reloading without a chrono is like driving without a speedo."

"Reloading without a chronograph is like swimming naked, you are liable to get a bite, in the wrong place at the wrong time."

What a bunch of old wives tales and urban legends!

There have been thousands of hours of flight time logged without a compass and an altimeter, a speedometer is not necessary to drive, manyof us used to go skinny dipping when the country was not so crowded!

I'm surprised that someone didn't mention that reloading without a chrony is like a gal without a bicycle seat!!!

I loaded for 20 years before I bought my first chrony, and I would take a guess I had loaded around 125 different rifle and pistol cartridges during that period of time.

Go to:

http://stevespages.com/targets.html

Take a look at the targets and the info posted below. these were all worked-up without a chrony, and were run through the chrony ONLY after the accuracy testing was done.

Well, lets see, guys who didn't use them for years, says they are not needed. And are a waste of time. Those who use them religously, couldn't do without them. Hmmm, I will have to go in the middle.

This year, I have venture out shooting long range. I think it is a compromise

Retumbo for instance in my 300RUM and 190gr matchkings. good groups at 100 yards but bad at 600yards. H1000 for example is very decent groups at 100 yards and great groups at 600yards. Like I said a compromise.

I love the chronograph.

Love my chrony, especially when working something up for longer range shooting.

stubblejumper:
""if the velocity varies there will be a vertical string"-Not at all true.My most accurate load has larger velocity variations than some other loads yet it results in smaller groups.Some loads with the smallest velocity variations result in larger groups(both vertically and horizontally)
"if the velocity is higher POI will be higher"Again not true.Sometimes adding a grain of powder will result in a lower POI even though the velocity increases."

This reminds me of a joke:
At a class reunion, the guy voted most likely to succeed noticed the class idiot arrived with a super model wearing diamonds. The most likely guy asked the idiot what he had been doing. The response was, "I'm do'n great! I'm in the restaurant business and I buy steaks for $4 and sell them for $10 and that way I make 6%."

"I reloaded for around 20 years before I finally broke down and bought my first one."

"I use three of them, one Chrony Gamma Master and two Chrony F1's."

Steve, I'm confused, you loaded for twenty years before you feel you needed one, now use three of them? Kinda tells me you may have done things differently if you had access to a chrony earlier.

A chronograph is an extremely useful tool.

It is even more useful when used in connection with a stain gauge, discretely installed under the forestock of a rifle. Cost is a bit more than the basic Shooting Chrony, but still in the same range as a mid-priced rifle scope.

Between the two, you can plot peak pressure vs. charge, muzzle velocity vs. charge, and peak pressure vs. muzzle velocity. With those three charts, you can characterize a load's performance over a fairly wide range, in about 6-10 shots.

I have used a chrony Beta model for the past 3 years , and I never go to the range without it. It is amazing what you will find. As most of the guys know , every rifle will react differently to a specific load , that includes velocity pressure etc. What the book says is a safe enough gideline to me , but I have have found in some of my rifles that listed MAX loads dont even come close to the velocity I get ...... for some reason I have to use more powder to get what the book gives as listed velocity.

In other words get a Chronograph and enjoy it .

Rudie

Hot Core has a point though he has taken it to a bit of a length. Sure, a case full of bullseye has reached bomb pressures well before max velocity is even close. BUT, given an appropriate powder and bullet combination from a manual, the velocity equals pressure thing comes back into it's intended reasoning. If you have reached published velocity before the max load in the manual is reached, you STOP adding powder! This is the situation where the chrono keeps you from going overboard. It's also nice when working up less than max loads that you want at a certain velocity. I was working up a load for my 416 Rem with the 300gr X bullet for plains game and stopped at 84.5 grains of RE15 which was giving 2700 fps consistently and accurately. Now the manual says I could go to 90.5 grains, but I say, why? The given load will do the job just fine and more powder is just wear on the gun and the shooter.

Steve, next time you quote someone, please be sure to convey the entire passage. The extract you quoted gives the impression that I suggest it is dangerous and impossible to reload without a chronograph. This is not true.

The next sentence in the extract you quoted from me reads:

"You can probably do it, but you just don't know what you're getting."

You certainly could drive without a speedometer, inflate tires without a gauge or even make clothes without a tape measure. In fact, I'm sure many people have done it. But does that mean you should do it if you can avoid it? A chronograph just provides one more valuable piece of information to guide you.

That's my point, and that's what I stated.

A chronograph is like religion to me but I'm not 100% devout. It's just that I'm not guessing or bragging when I tell somebody how fast I'm shooting. Shooting over a chronograph is an eye opener for nearly everbody. Most don't believe the instrument because they know the factory claims can't be that wrong.

Sorry, but velocity DOES = pressure for a given set of components. The variations mentioned above in the Hodgdon manual are for DIFFERENT POWDERS, and hence the components are not constant. When you reach the max velocity for a given load in any manual, you have reached max pressure. You must, however use the same bbl length as the manual or make the necessary velocity correction for length.

I have not had a stuck case or flattened primer in 20 years using this approach, but have had many using the charge weights recommended in various manuals.

Vertical stringing WILL show up at farther ranges if the velocity spread is far enough off, don't matter if the slowest shot hit higher than the faster one at 100 yards either. A point will come that the higher speed shot will impact higher...
The difference is most important at 100 yards when the slow shot goes low and the fast shot goes high though. It's all in the angle, MV and BC...

I use a Chronograph, why not? They are definitely worth it over the long run. They are another good tool to indicate pressure, just as with using any other method... as long as it's an accurate Chrono, and I'm not convinced they all are. With a given powder, velocity and pressure are fairly closely related. If a bore is tighter etc, pressure is usually higher... higher pressure is usually going to push the bullet faster regaurdless but not always, just KNOW that all powder charges for a given powder aren't universal to ALL guns. Different powder lots, chamber and bore dims all affect pressure and velocity with a given charge wt. Factory loaded ammo bears this out. They don't expect a great deviation in PSI when loading ammo for everyones guns do they? The factories use a tight spec'd chambered test barrel and don't exceed the pressure set for that cartridge in it. If pressure varied more than just a little, maybe more than 3-5K psi, I would have noticed it on barrels set up with strain gages and calibrated with factory ammo.... it don't vary a whole lot and is about what one would expect.

I did happen to shoot some 300wm Federal factory ammo in my buddies 300wm and mine too, they varied in MV by close to 100 fps, his Ruger was faster than my Remington, both wore 24 inchers. I would venture to say this accounted for about 3-5k psi less pressure in my rifle. When I looked at the book MV for that bullet and cartridge, mine was slower than what you'd normally get... his was not faster than the book. I did not have mine hooked up with a strain gage or I would have known.

You all get yourself a Chrono and don't look back, they're a wonderfull tool that you can find very usefull.

All the best, however you monitor pressure.

Its true that velocity does not equal pressure, but it DOES give strong indications. When velocities begin climbing at a fast rate it is a tell tale sign just like flattened primers and swolen case heads and frankly it can eliminate a lot of guesswork and make reloading safer because of that.

Nowadays factory loads are so good that reloading without a chronograph is almost an exersize in futility unless your only goal is punching paper. You have the potential for a much better product with one and its effectivness can realize a savings in components quite easily.

All guns will not produce the same velocity with identical pressures.As hot core has stated there are two many variables in a barrel for this to be true.As far as point of impact and velocity are concerned increasing velocity can result in a lower point of impact.Since the barrel oscillates during firing the point of impact is very dependant on the barrels position when the bullet leaves it.If the barrel is moving upward the slower bullet will leave the barrel later so the muzzle will actually be aimed higher resulting in a higher point of impact.I have also done enough chronographing to confirm that loads with the smallest deviation in velocity will not always produce the smallest groups either horizontally or vertically.

Hot Core:

Your arguments may make sense to you, and even make sense to a lot of other people. However the substances is akin to old guys arguing that a 32 Win Special is better than a 30/30.

I find that velocity from a chrony gives me a pretty strong reference point of where my bullet is going to strike at 200 yds, etc, by cross referencing the trajectory charts in my reload manuals. I also use their load data as a reference point. Some of my rifles will take a lot more powder than theirs will before I have pressure signs and others get Hot before I reach the load level in theirs. My chrony tells me what that particular rifle is doing with that load, and I find this very useful.

Mr. Riccardelli:

You live in Western Montana. So of course driving without a speedo is no big deal to you.
No one in that part of Montana, ( even in most of the state) never pays attention to a speedometer anyway. there are no cops around to write you up and if there are, the price of a ticket is so low, no one cares. And there are a lot of guys who own pickups that are so old, that they won't go fast enough to break a speed limit anywhere.

So I can see where from your point of reference that not having technical gizmos is no big deal.

On the other hand I have used those Steve's Reload pages for a long time, and you live in God's country. So whether you are right or wrong on any subject, including this one, You are COOL! Just the rest of these guys are not as experienced or as smart as you, so we need a little extra help.

I noticed that at 100 yards using the same bullet
and increasing the velocity causes the POI to drop lower and I couldn't understand or believe it
until I started shooting over a chronograph and
became convinced of the velocities. This is because the highest portion of the arch of the bullet is getting closer to the shooter with lower
velocities. The reverse is true on the other end
of the arch, say at 300 yards the slower bullet
hits lower and the faster bullet hits higher. A
close look at any long range ballistic table will
will bare this out. I had noticed this for years
but the chronograph convinced me. If you know the
actual velocity of your loads you can plug the
figures into a ballistics table and get approximate trajectories at various ranges. Then
of course shoot at all different ranges to confirm your data. A chronograph is certainly not
a necessity but sure is a usefull tool in shooting and load development! I don't let anyone
shoot over my chronograph because if they hit it
I will end up paying for it.

Stubblejumper,

I agree that all guns will not produce the same velocity with identical pressures. But if it's being suggested that there are extreme velocity or pressure spreads of upward of 8-10k psi or maybe 200 fps in different rifles, and is a good possibility and therefore unsafe to use a chrono as a means to identify pressure.... I respectfully disagree, completely.

If the barrel is moving upward the slower bullet will leave the barrel later so the muzzle will actually be aimed higher resulting in a higher point of impact.

Could be that the slower bullet leaves when the muzzle whips high or low, just depends, it doesn't necessarily mean it leaves when the muzzle is only high because it's slower. I know what you mean though. Regaurdless of the angle that they leave the bore on, the bullet is on a trajectory based on MV and BC, therefore if the bullet that leaves "slower" drops 2 MOA more at 1000 yards than the faster one, and the faster one starts off only 1 MOA lower, the faster bullet that left the bore 1 moa low is now impacting the target over 10" higher at 1000 yards. So, the faster bullet, given enough distance, will always impact higher than the slower one, even if it "starts out" on a higher trajectory angle. A good reason to keep ES small if you shoot long range... group size will eventually suffer, given enough distance... You can verify this on any ballistics program if you think I'm all wet too.

A slower bullet will not always hit lower or higher at say 100 yards, I would suggest that recoil and barrel time has alot to do with a faster load hitting ever higher at 100 yards. Could affect a slower load hitting higher the same too. MV and BC determine trajectory, so the slower bullet will "drop" more at 100, 200, 300 yards alike... The slower load may not always zero lower at 100 yards though, there's too many things that determine the "bullet path" such as vibration, recoil, rifle hold, ignition, barrel time, initial BC, etc. Over all, the faster bullet and/or the one with the higher BC will hit "relatively" higher at 100 yards and farther out too.

Brent-I said lower velocity bullet"could" have a higher point of impact .I did not say that it would.There are far too many variables to predict how increasing vlocity will effect point of impact without actually trying it.