Well, AIU, I decided my post was a little mean-spirited, and that it wasn't in keeping with the highest ideals, so I deleted it. If you like it, feel free to keep it running.

Sure, I'm a little pissed. That's my mistake. I shouldn't have allowed you that.

quote:

Short demonstration? - give me a break.]

Yes, I concede. You're much better at that than I am. I should never have tried baiting, manipulating, bullying, and putting words in the mouth of a pro like you. Your skills at that are far better than mine.

Denton (the self-anointed reloading messiah, the caster of "pearls" to “swineâ€) SAYS, "Yes, I concede. You're much better at that than I am. I should never have tried baiting, manipulating, bullying, and putting words in the mouth of a pro like you. Your skills at that are far better than mine."

Geeezzz, Denton, you really do believe the rest of us here are stupid "swine" - you really think I'm going to fall for that line and believe you're REALLY CONTRITE – that you really feel inferior. Denton, it’s not in your nature to feel inferior – not even close. Give us “swine†a break. Your sarcastic comment above clearly indicates that you do not submit, you do not feel inferior, but (instead) you want to continue this flame war. You deleted your post, because you realized how STUPID it was. You realized you were giving me a TON OF MATERIAL to make you like an idiot. You didn't want me to have that material, but it was too late. Denton, you're digging your own hole; and, you know what they say, "when you find yourself in a hole quit digging." Let's see if you smart enought to stop digging - I doubt it.

I'll continue to fire my NBT verbal bullets (loaded with Re25 with PSI followed by primer pocket loosening, CHE, and QL) and you use whatever you wish. I love a good flame war, especially from someone like you - a flame war masochist. It’ll be entertaining for the other posters.

Good luck, Denton.

P.S. I went back and re-read your post where you said.."It is bad enough that I cast my pearls before swine, but now the swine are complaining about the quality of the pearls." Denton, you should be absolutely ASHAMED of this statement - the egregious pompous-ass arrogance it shows is unbelievable. I've never in my life seen anything like it. You'd best go see your priest ASAP and get out of this mindset. You need more than a psychiatrist You're about ready to HURT somebody. I'm serious.

quote:

Originally posted by CDH:
...Brass artifact==cartridge case. Just a little backhand humor attempt...I'm bad about that.

Hey CDH, Now I'm going to have to "totally disagree", I'd say you are real good at it. Kind of felt the point of a "non-malicious needle" when I first read it and got a HUGE laugh.

Good to see we can have fun with each other rather than at each other's expense.

quote:

...Unfortunately common sense is becoming as rare as good manners....

I agree, but it sure wouldn't be as much fun if I didn't have denton to laugh at, if you know what I mean. HA
---

It does seem that AIU has denton fairly well figured out. Might be a bit tough on him, but the truth and reality always has created SERIOUS problems for denton.

So from all this am I to assume that my method of increasing the load gradually, looking at the case with feigned knowledge (to impress the onlookers) and when things start to look interesting, the just fired case is a bit difficult to rechamber, so then back off, that that system isn't up to PRE CHE RIP whatever they are??.
John L.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
So from all this am I to assume that my method of increasing the load gradually, looking at the case with feigned knowledge (to impress the onlookers)

Hey John, STOP right there. That just shows how "out-of-date" you are. If you want to impress the onlookers, jam some wires down into the stock and lead them off to a tool box, ammo box, piece of 2x4, or even one of the non-calibrated HSGSs. The more wires, the more impressive it will be.

You can stop by a hardware store and get a square foot or so of "wire screen". Cut some pieces out about as big as your thumb and 2-part epoxy them all over the barrel with wires hooked to them as well. Even a few on the stock would look right nice and add to the overall look. As always, the more wires coming off - the better it will impress folks. You can always add a few extra 2x4s if you run out of room on one for all the wires. Use as many different colors and sizes of wires as possible, and you can always add them as you find different ones.

Paint some numbers on the 2x4 that goes something like this for a 30-06 => 3179.293847fps at 28,001.93405819052348kpsi. The numbers after the decimal point are REALLY important because they indicate a measurement SUPERIORITY not attainable unless you are using a "Home Strain Gauge System" similar to yours.

People might ask "Why?" the numbers aren't changing??? HA, you give them that good ole "down-the-nose you-don't-know-beans" look and tell them it is the latest model that only shows "changes" in Velocity or Pressure. And that your Reloads are so consistant that the numbers just "appear to be" painted on. Orange or Red Day-Glo paint will give a close enough LED image.

Put different numbers on each 2x4 and that would indicate the different Velocity and Pressure as the bullet moves down the barrel, but I feel sure you would already know that.

Add a bit to those numbers each week that you go to the Range and you can tell them you've been "improving" the Loads. Probably easier to just add a few more wires and another 2x4 with the HIGHER numbers though.

A nice side benefit of all the wires is you can just wrap them all around your rifle when you are through shooting (as any HSGS user does) and if you have enough of them, you won't even need a gun case to "protect" your rifle.

quote:

... and when things start to look interesting, the just fired case is a bit difficult to rechamber, so then back off, that that system isn't up to PRE CHE RIP whatever they are??...

The only way you can really appreciate this answer is to go find a mirror, get that good ole "down-the-nose you-don't-know-beans" look and say, "Nope, not even close." Finish it off with a sneer and a "What makes you even THINK you are a Reloader anyhow?" look.
---

CHE/PRE = The very best time proven, NEVER improved upon, easily repeatable, inexpensive, easy to measure, (did I mention VERY BEST), quickly learned, Pressure Detection Methods available.

Non-Calibrated HSGSs = Reloaders Pyrite (aka Fools Gold)
---

There you go John, just that simple.

quote:

The latest Lyman Reloading Manual states that THREE reloadings before encountering loose primer pockets IS ACCEPTABLE.

Hmmmm..... Not to me,it ain't!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

There you go John, just that simple.

Um, did I mention I have trouble counting out change?
John L.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
...Um, did I mention I have trouble counting out change?...

Hey John, Be extremely careful then, because that is one of the "traits" the HSGS "Salesmen" look for in a potential customer.

If you hear someone begin telling you that you really need a HSGS, listen with one ear tuned for the Carnival Music playing in the background, because you are about to be "P.T. Barnumed" (or "dentonized" as we like to say here at AR)....

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:

El Deguello, you are inoffensive, practical, and succinct.
I will have to research your posts.

Well blow me down! Thanks for the kind words.......

In the For What It's Worth category...with special affection for Hot Core and the other strain gauge bashers.

From a thread in July, by a former Nosler ballistics supervisor:

quote:

Hot Core, the Un-calibrated home strain gauge is a good place to start.
The Nosler Ballistics Lab uses strain gauges and what they do is purchase "Reference ammo" from SAAMI. This is generally a large and very consistent batch of ammunition that has been tested by most of the SAAMI members. They all report back their measured pressures and the offset used along with barrel brand/length, velocity and every other factor that they can. All of this information provides a baseline that allows a strain gauge to be "Calibrated or adjusted by offset". It is not a perfect system but it gets them close.
You can get close by firing and recording at least ten shots from a box of factory ammo, comparing this to your offset, SAAMI pressure limits and by following the instructions with the strain gauge system. Probably an Oehler system.

quote:

The Nosler Ballistics Lab uses strain gauges and what they do is purchase "Reference ammo" from SAAMI. This is generally a large and very consistent batch of ammunition that has been tested by most of the SAAMI members. They all report back their measured pressures and the offset used along with barrel brand/length, velocity and every other factor that they can. All of this information provides a baseline that allows a strain gauge to be "Calibrated or adjusted by offset". It is not a perfect system but it gets them close.You can get close by firing and recording at least ten shots from a box of factory ammo, comparing this to your offset, SAAMI pressure limits and by following the instructions with the strain gauge system.

I like this approach - calibration and monitoring with internal standards. It makes good sense.

quote:

I like this approach - calibration and monitoring with internal standards. It makes good sense.

Gee, welcome to the party. Shame you didn't pay attention earlier. (You did mean external standardards, didn't you?)

quote:

Pete, what you suggest could indeed be done, and might be somewhat useful. The problem is that commercial pressure barrels are cut to minimum dimensions, and routinely produce higher pressures and MV's than average guns. We don't know what the offset is... probably only 2-3,000 PSI, and about 70 fps, but still, that's 3-5%...

The other approach is that some commercial ammunition manufacturers will give you the test pressure information if you tell them the lot of your ammunition. That suffers from the same problem.

My approach has been to follow the NIST procedure. Pressure can be mathematically written in terms of gage factor, barrel ID and OD, steel properties, and a few other terms. We know pressure as well as we know those terms, and all of them are available to at least two digits, and some to three. It's fair to assume that we know pressure to about the accuracy we know the worst of those, so my estimate is that the strain gage is good to a couple of percent, and that's good enough. I've seen the same load in two different books by commercial labs differ by 10%.

CDH is absolutely correct in his statement that you can use commercial ammo, and stay below that. The only problem is that a lot of the commercial ammo is a little below spec... and that's not a big problem, because you should be, too.

All of those approaches have their merits. As long as you understand what you are doing, I have no problem with any of them. In fact, if you use my approach, you should also use CDH's approach at least a few times on every system you set up, as a check.

Every commercial round I have tested has been right where you would expect... Federal High Energy right at the spec limit, for example.

quote:

After you have tested umpteen commercial rounds, and they are all right where they're 'spose to be, you get bored and quit worrying about it.

Sure glad I didn't use the word "quack" in any of my posts. You might have accused me of thinking I was a self-appointed Donald Duck. That would be just too weird.

Oh, and if you want some data... get off your lazy whiney imperious ass and get it yourself.

Hey CDH, What are you "trying" to say? Speak up.
---

Has anybody seen Digital Dan? Sure could use some Beer and BBQ for this thread.

DD is happily entertaining us over at his usual haunt, the small game forum. I guess he has tired of this thread, like most of the nominally sane forum members.

I'm just re-hashing old data...same as you on these threads. It did seem pertinant when you read over some of the comments being made. One never knows when the light will come on for some new reader. Us older guys seem to pretty much have our minds made up. Most of us still have all our body parts attached where they belong, too. Lucky, I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by CDH:
... I guess he has tired of this thread, like most of the nominally sane forum members...

Didn't know many of that type (besides you and me) frequented this board. Old DD has always struck me as half a can "over full" with excellent info, if you can just get him to tell about it.

Looks like the thread is finally going to die.

Wow! A guy goes out of town for a few days and look what I miss!

I think a casual reader of this topic would conclude that a few folks here are out to get Denton. I see few of these guys that have data of their own.......and constantly criticize Denton's data. What's up with that?

Obviously, strain gauge systems are more precise and repeatable than PRE or CHE or reloading companies wouldn't have switched to them. No one can refute that with credability. Valid question: can one setup their home strain gauge system properly? Yes, it's not that difficult and most handloaders will be able to do this. Not all.......some people have no mechanical apptitude. I wouldn't trust everyone to handload either.

Can PRE or CHE measure absolute pressure? No. Are they useful as a reloading tool for relative pressure comparison? Yes.....assuming you take enough samples.......which most people probably will not do. Remember, reloading labs with the best equipment available take 10 samples and the standard deviation of their error is much less than PRE or CHE.

Can a strain gauge measure absolute pressure? Yes, and some companies use them to develop reloading data.

Can strain gauge equipment available to reloaders (Oehler and Pressure Trace) measure absolute pressure? Yes. How accurately? I've no problem believing +/- 2,000 psi. I would fire factory ammo as a sanity check and to verify installation before relying on this accuracy.

Can you calibrate a strain gauge system by firing "reference ammo"? Depends on what you mean by "calibrate". Let's ask it this way; Will reference ammo produce the same pressure in my Rem 700 (with strain gauge attached) that it does in a pressure test barrel? No. Your Rem 700 may have a SAAMI max spec chamber and the pressure test barrel will have a min spec chamber. Remember PV=nRT from your physics class? If the Rem 700 max spec chamber has 5% more volume than the min spec chamber on the test barrel, the reference ammo would produce 5% less pressure in the Rem 700. Now we could "calibrate" the strain gauge and claim the pressure produced by firing the reference ammo in the Rem 700 max spec chamber is the same pressure produced when the reference ammo is fired in the pressure test barrel......but we know this is not true.

Most reloaders are interested in the pressure produced when their handloads are fired in their rifle. If you "calibrate" to reference ammo, the "calibrated readings" will be the pressure that would be produced if you fired your handloads in the pressure test barrel used to develop the reference ammo.

Is calibrating using reference ammo useful? Yes, especially if you are producing reloading data for the public or if you are producing ammo for the public. It is also useful as a sanity check for your strain gauge system. Remember, the reference ammo does not produce a given pressure in every chamber it is fired in......so there is no way one can achieve an absolute calibration in a factory rifle by calibrating against reference ammo. (If you still do not understand this.....please reread the previous paragraph) If you are calibrating a pressure test barrel against another pressure test barrel (both cut to SAAMI min specs) then reference ammo is more useful.

Fire away! I would appreciate keeping the name calling to a minimum. I particularly want to hear everyone describe how reference ammo will produce the same pressure in a max spec chamber that it does in a min spec chamber. Remember, I am not claiming that reference ammo is not useful......I'm claiming it doesn't produce a given pressure in all chambers so it will not be useful for absolute calibration of all chambers from min spec to max spec.

Hey HogWild, I notice you failed to respond to the simple question I asked of you the first time you posted. That being the case, I'm sure you will understand if I ignore your questions as well.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../974103523#974103523
You mean there is a question worth responding to somewhere in there?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey HogWild, I notice you failed to respond to the simple question I asked of you the first time you posted. That being the case, I'm sure you will understand if I ignore your questions as well.

Hot Core

I'll have to go back and read. I was out of town this past weekend and may not have gone back far enough to see your question. I wish this forum kept pointers to the last post you've viewed in a topic and would automatically take you back where you left off. Other forums do this.....but it is considerable overhead on the database. I'm at home for lunch and about to return to work. I'll try to look up your question tonight.

Gentlemen,
There are some intelligent people on this forum and I appreciate their questions and comments. I especially appreciate it when someone shares some good data. We could all live without the name calling, though.

I'd like to see more people post their pressure measurement data, including how they calibrate or verify the data. Right now few people want to post data here because there is too much name calling and Monday morning quarterbacking.

I don't agree with all of Denton's assumptions but I respect his logical approach. I just wish we'd see more of his data.

I accept the fact the strain gage pressure measurement is imperfect in the same way that the Ford Model T was imperfect. It's relatively new techology (for the average reloader) and there's still a lot to learn about how to make it work better. The learning curve would be accelerated if people could share data and compare notes without being flamed or ridiculed.

quote:

Hey HogWild, Surely you didn't really think denton would ever be able to comprehend the reality of the situation.

quote:

Have you ever heard of anything MORE STUPID?!?!?

The only questions in Hot Core's response to HogWild's post.


HogWild's post - https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../811102523#811102523
Hot Core's response - https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../974103523#974103523

HotCore,

I couldn't find the question. Where is it located?

HogWild

quote:

Originally posted by HogWild:
HotCore,

I couldn't find the question. Where is it located?

HogWild

It's right next to his head, and both are in his dark and smelly place.

BTT

BTT

Since you all are just screaming for my opinion on the subject...

Let's all get QL and stay south of 60,000 PSI.

Guns are designed to hold together at 100,000 PSI.

Primers fall out at 80,000 PSI.

Most new rounds are designed for 60-65,000 PSI.

Let's stay at say 55,000 PSI and end this stupid discussion. One hole groups are much more interesting.

Ralph, You fail to get the point. QL will have you trusting a machine to keep your pressures safe. A electric powered, not manual tool at that!! Worse yet it takes a guess at them and can`t be calibrated
I`m soooo confused......

But we reloaders cannot RELIABLY predict pressure by visual comparison. The BEST course of action is to use QL and reference the manufacturer's reloading data.

FWIW I just read a commentary by the folks that make and market the "Hawk" line of cartridges. The .411 and .375 Hawk had my interest and I thought it was interesting that they said that .001 growth in the case head is totally acceptable to them.

I'm fairly impressed with their velocity claims and they also sell "factory" ammunition for the Hawk line of ammo.

The fact that they measure it is enough to discredit their ammo.

I'll measure it when working up loads for my particular gun as a piece of evidence about how my particular load is performing in my specific gun. Along with lots of other signs I'm comfortable that I have a safe load that is max for my gun.

It read more like a modern day Ackley to me.

RH is correct. The cases will tell you when the PSI is getting "toasty." Brass doesn't lie - watch those primer pockets with a hand priming tool! When things get "toasty" the primer pockets start to loosen up too quickly.

quote:

they said that .001 growth in the case head is totally acceptable to them.

quote:

Mostly I go for the point of accuracy below .005

quote:

stopping with 0.0003"-0.0004" CHE

quote:

don't get concerned until .0005 increase

quote:

Generally the same 0.0003"-0.0005" range

quote:

then a case expansion of .00275 is perfectly acceptable

quote:

WARM casehead .003" new brass

quote:

measure the expansion, and keep it under, for me, .004 at the max, and prefered under .003

quote:

I can can measure the same <.003 on the cases, and it's nowhere near .005, then it's a VERY SAFE load.

quote:

you can measure case heads with a caliper

quote:

If the case head grows more than .0001", you are overloading

If reading case heads were a standard practice and at all consistent and repeatable we would not see these discrepancies. It is a miracle that people are not damaging firearms and injuring or killing themselves with such variation.

What a shame. This could be an interesting discussion, if personal insults and flames weren't obscuring the arguments...

Jaywalker

Jackfish, nice avitar, even if a jackfish down here is a Crevalle Jack...sorta like a fishy bulldog!

Yeah, casehead expansion (and PRE) has waaaay to many uncontrolled variables for my personal taste, but that's only my preference. Obviously, I don't run the world. Yet.

Now, would this thread please die!?!?!?

quote:

Originally posted by CDH:
Now, would this thread please die!?!?!?

I don't want it to die.....I would like someone to explain why strain gauge systems are useless unless "calibrated" with reference ammo. I believe I've shown that reference ammo doesn't produce the same pressure in all chambers......so how can we calibrate a factory rifle (whose chamber may vary anywhere from max spec to min spec) with reference ammo?

Everyone was so outspoken previously.....why are they so quite now?

HW, I can't speak for the others, but this has been argued to death a few times in the past and led to some bad blood between Denton and HC to name just 2.

IMO, asking again and again is egging on an argument and that is counterproductive.

For the sake of argument , my position is that they work fine without the need for a direct calibration via reference ammo if properly set up, and proper setup is well within the capabilities of the average reloader. Therefore they aren't useless and using factory or calibration ammo is a 'sanity check' to make sure there are not any gross errors in the system. It's not a calibration because of the reasons you state. If you are hot-rodding within a few thousand PSI of a blowup, a strain gauge isn't gonna help you in the long run! If you are within a few thousand PSI of actual...you are doing much better than anyone outside (and maybe just as good as those inside some) ballistics labs. You are in the realm of variances from temperature/powder lot/bullet seating depth/chamber/bore/bullet combinations...

Now can it R.I.P.?

CDH, at what PSI do modern bolt-action rifles blow-up?

AIU, you get 1 answer, as I refuse to get drawn into one of your argumenative cycles of 'what if'...

It depends.

Different designs, metallurgy, quality, age, previous load history, etc. make the determination of what a particular specimen can withstand on any given pull of the trigger. As an engineer, I understand AND RESPECT the safety factors involved. Therefore, I don't particularly care what PSI they are capable of withstanding...I choose to not dabble in that territory. There is absolutely no good reason in my book to do so with modern small arms...

...as usual, YMMV!

CDH, the number I've read is ~150,000 PSI for a first-rate, modern bolt-action rifle. Brass will fail much sooner, usually with blown primers ~75-80,000 PSI. I've had case-head separations while using old brass with SAAMI-OK loads - that is, ~60,000 PSI - and nothing happened. I'd read on this forum that my gun should have blown to pieces because of escaping gases back into the action. How can that be?

If the separated case head has enough of the case wall to form a pressure sealing cup there will not be a lot of gas leakage. This occurs with Lee-Enfields. You will separated case heads regularly in a Lee-Enfield with factory equivalent loads. I have never heard of anyone getting hurt with a Lee-Enfield case head separation but it is still disconcerting.

I'm not getting in this argument, but I do have all kinds of calipers, mikes of all sizes and a pressure trace. About all I can get from case head expansion is that if it is showing none then it is safe, normally .0003-.0005 is OK. If it expands enough that the primer falls out the pressure is too high! I have seen some with the .0005 CHE that show near 70000psi on the pressure trace fairly consistently and if my readings are off by 5% which I doubt, then they are plenty hot. I guess I did step into this argument.