Ive used old WW 2 H4831, todays H4831 and IMr 4831 for years, but need to know about the short core, can I use old H4831 loads grain wise..I can't find any short core core load DATA...One fellow told me use the same load it just easier to pack in the case..????? Seems likly as you can't get enough of the old stuff in a 06 case to even pop a primer..

Hogdgons states the data is interchangeable between H4831 and H4831sc.

Hip

that makes since, Im in the process of finding out, but my H4831 is WW2 stuff, that Jack O'connor praised highly, and well he should..It can get you and extra 150 to 200 fps in a 06 or 270 and never break 50.000 PSO. I shoot 60 grs of thestuff iwth a 180gr bullet in my 30-06s with pressures around the 40,000 PS mark and can hang on the edge of 3000 FPS, but it cramps the case so I shoot at 2900 FPS..I still have 30 or 40 lbs of that old stuff and its just like new but it cuts grains to beat hell, and its a pain to load..but with todays problems I will probably be back using it just like I did back in the day..and after I go through 3 pouncs of short core...

I have both and use the same data.

the old ww-2 stuff is not the same as today's 4831.
I wouldn't use the old data for todays powder.

what I would [did] do though is buy an electronic powder measure.
type in the weight and push the button, no cut grains, no crunching, nuthin, just powder in the pan.

I use it for the SC version too.

quote:

Originally posted by Hipshoot:
Hogdgons states the data is interchangeable between H4831 and H4831sc.

Hip

That's correct! H4831 and H4831 Short Cut data interchanges

The 'new' H4831 and H4831SC are one and the same powder made in Australia, known as AR2213 and AR2213SC to us down under.
The load data published by Hornady for these powders is just a copy of the AR powder data published by the Aussie manufacturer ADI (Australian Defence Industries). They publish quite an extensive reloading booklet for their powders covering a wide range of cartridges every year or so and used to be available as a download from their website, may still be I haven't checked lately.

These powders ARE NOT the same as the original surplus H4831 that Hornady used to supply. That powder was a few grains slower burning than the modern H4831/H4831SC so straight interchanging using surplus data with the modern powders is a no no.

I’ve used same data for both for quite a few years, zero problems.

So I loaded up some SC and some old world war2 surplus powder and all was fine, I got almost a 100 fps with 60 grs of each and near max with SC and still mild with the old stuff, I went with 62 grs for max in the old stuff, very compacted, but no sign of pressure, easy extraction, primers flat, ut no black ring and primers stayed snug..That old 4831 is the best powder Ive ever used in the 30-06 and the .270, just like O,Connor said it was..most velocity and less pressure..BUT you simply need to weigh each charge and top it off with a sprinkle! It a grain cutting mess! I have a lot of it form a 150 lb. Stainless steel Keg encased in a 2x4 frame and a rubber lined lid..I use the keg for Oats these days and only have maybe 40 lbs left,that I put in cannisters, and in todays society I may be using it more and more as my powder supply dwindles..and if I can keep a low supply of primers.

quote:

These powders ARE NOT the same as the original surplus H4831 that Hornady used to supply. That powder was a few grains slower burning than the modern H4831/H4831SC so straight interchanging using surplus data with the modern powders is a no no.

My experience is the opposite. I still have and use the original surplus 4831 and find it more consistent and slightly faster than the current Hodgdon/ADI Short Cut version. I use the original surplus 4831 in .243/100gr, .270/130gr, .30-06/180gr, and .338/225gr (the latter two of which my son and I used in Africa several years ago).

I've experimented with the ADI-sourced 4831SC as a substitute, but performance (mostly accuracy) hasn't matched the surplus stuff.

On the other hand, IMR7828SSC works as an excellent substitute for surplus 4831 when about 3% by weight is added. This works for most loads since the 7828SSC is a bit denser (or its smaller granules pack more efficiently) so that its volume matches the surplus 4831 fairly well.

Ray: If you ever need a substitute for the surplus 4831 try the IMR7828SSC. It meters quite nicely from my Redding powder measure.

When the mention of IMR 7828SSC was made it got my attention. I remembered getting a bargain on two eight pound kegs of it for $100 per keg when a local store went out of business and thought I had been very lucky. I then checked prices on other powders. RL-15 six pound bottles $15.00 each, eight pounds H-1000 $100.00, eight pounds W-760 $100.00, six pounds of IMR4831SSC $16.90 per bottle. In the box is also an eight keg of RL-26 I gave $226.00 for last year. I also have lots of RL-33 and RL-25. If anyone is close to West Kentucky and needs any of those mentioned powders I can always spare a pound to those in who are in dire need in these hard times. My prices will be reasonable to fellow reloaders with a pound or two limit. The RL-26 took me a year to get so it is off limits. Good Shooting.

The 4831 I have is WW2 mil. surplus 4831 and slower than any other 4831 including the later Hornady, and Hogedon its the stuff that Jack O,Connor pimped in OUtdoor Life and his load of 62 grs in the 270 or 30-06, and 63 if it would fit and hold the bullet, mine pushes the bullet out a bit overnight so 62 is max and pressure is in the 40,000 PSI Ive been told, and it sure makes brass last many loadings and tight primer pockets...I don,t use it much these days as it cuts powder in the measure something terrible and each load needs to be weighed according to some, for accuracy perhaps, others just filled a case tamped it down added more powder and it worked..velocity was in the 3200 FPS catagory according to Jack and pressure in the 40,000 psi to 50,000..and my results suggested that is correct..This stuff sold like gold back in the 70s and 80s, at $25.00 a pound, todays value Im not sure...Its also been referred to a 4350 DATA by some.. My best load the other day at the pasture range with the short core was 59 grs. and 60 was compacted pretty tight..Most guns shoot at max has been my experience with slow burning powders..I think I like this short core, it flows well in the measure. Not sure its as good as H414 or RL-22 however..We'll see..

Stonecreek,
I used a lot of IMR7828 in my big 300s at one time, excellent powder in the magnum cases. Never got the velocity in the 30-06 or 270 in my gun, couldn't get enough of it in the cases, Might give the short core a try one of these days..

Ray,

IMR7828SSC probably won't make the most in a .30-06 (except with the heaviest of bullets).

However, with 130's or heavier in the .270 it moves them right along. Individual rifles probably vary as to which powder generates the most optimal velocity, but in my Sako 58.5 grains of Surplus 4831 runs an honest (chronographed/Oehler 35) 3,200 fps and if I used any more then pressures would be unsustainable (wear out the brass too quickly or cause sticky bolt lift). Use about 3%-4% more (by weight) of IMR7828SSC (which fits just fine due to the smaller granules packing tighter) and the velocity will be in the same ballpark.

Ray,

You can send me 10 lb of the old 4831 to try. lol

I was luck and a member sold me 2 lb of the H4831 Sc and 1k old mag large rifle primmer from Target at 19.99. Course my old primers are mid 80's. All my rifles shoot this inc family members and great groups.

the 7mm-08 is another animal. I have plenty of lrp's but I have fund a can of h380, blc(2),1 H414 and 1 W760 (same powder), and a can of Reloader 17. 17 is a little slow.

Trying to figure what is the best loads but you shoot what you can find Any suggestions for H 139 bt or a 140 bt? in 7mm-08?

I have shot some but the old Caldwell Chrony is acting a little strange. I can get two loads then the third load is off on velocity by 100 fps but it is doing this on quite a few of the three shot groups and on different days.

Be safe up there.

Jim D

JImtx
Ive never owned a 7-08 darn it!! its a fine round IMO, all my experience is with a 7x57, Id suggest H-414, WW760, RL-19 and CFE223 based on the case, and work up your own load, dont go by the book but start there, Most book max loads are not even starting loads in a good rifle, It applies to other calibers also, why I don,t know as to other calibers but they are low due to the old mausers and Rem single shot in the 7x57 it seems, so go slow and work up to YOUR guns max..and yes H-414 and WW760 are the same powder and take the same grainage..

Though the manual loads may or may not work for both the original H4831 and the modern versions, they are obviously half world apart in manufacture and worlds away in derivation.

According to Wikipedia, Hodgdon's original 4831 came from disassembled Oelikon 20mm cannon cartridges.

Ray,
Have you thought of or used a drop tube to get the desired weight of tubular powders into the 30-06 case?

Geoff

Ray,
Have you thought of or used a drop tube to get the desired weight of tubular powder into the 30-06 case?

Geoff

quote:

According to Wikipedia, Hodgdon's original 4831 came from disassembled Oelikon 20mm cannon cartridges.

Well, it was formulated for the 20mm, but little or none of it on the market was from "pull down" shells. There was plenty enough of it unused at the end of the War for Bruce Hodgdon to fill some empty grain silos with it.

It was originally advertised as "4350 Data Powder" because, being somewhat slower burning and no one having access to a chronograph (or knowledgeable in the use of a ballistic pendulum), it could be loaded using IMR 4350 data and the gun would go "bang" and a bullet would come out the end of the barrel, albeit a bit less hastily than if loaded with actual 4350.

Geoff,
????? Ive never had a problem getting any of the slow burning powders in a 30-06..I have some drop tubes but I only use it to get 4831 into a 220 swift case, at least in the last few years..

Stone creek,
Historically your correct, for the most part but it got the highest velocity with the lowest pressure of any powder I know of and it will beat todays 4350 or 4831 in every caliber Ive used it in..I chronographed it many times, and talked to folks that had the ability to pressure test it, which was a waste of time, it it is truly low pressure and the safest powder yet in that in the 06 and its get, you cannot pack enough powder in it to even stick a bolt not so with todays 4350 or 4831, with perhaps the exception of the short core version thats fairly new, and I don't know about it..I have one can of it and I like it but have not tested it other than to hunt with it..Its accurate for sure. My load with short core is 58 to 59 grs. My std load with the old stuff was 62 grs. and 63 depending on the rifles chamber..Rem brass for instance was 60 or 61..I pretty much quit using it with and have gone to H414, WW760, Rl-22 or RL-19 solely because they measure more smoothly and accurately, as the old stuff cuts grain so badly that you have to weigh every charge.

I had originally a 150 lb. US military SS canister, still have 40 or so lbs, Nothing else comes close in the 06 and 270. and a few others, tested on my chronographs..and back when did we not have computers? its hayday was at the end of WW2, and a few had chronographs as I recall, at least 2 in Marfa, Texas..

Ray,
What I meant was that using a drop tube helps align the granules to stack up and thus provides a little more capacity in the case to achieve the desired powder charge.

The drop tube is just another step and often a pain in the butt and not required for most powders.

Geoff