I don't like this - read on -

I was shooting my 10" .32 H&R magnum T/C at an IHMSA match Sunday. After ~15 rounds, the fired brass started hanging-up in the chamber. It got worse. By shot 25, I had to hook the rim with a screwdriver to get them out of the barrel ! Now - EVERY full cartridge went in to the chamber fine - virtually "fell" in. I felt the fired brass - no bulges, no extreme expansion, primers looked OK, although I did have one pierced primer. Only the last 1/4" of the brass got held-up. Once I had it that far out, it was fine. Report, recoil, POI - all was normal and as expected.

This was an established, tested load - N100 under a .309" dia., (the bore is .308) 100 gr. hard-cast SWC. Chrony'd it and everything.

So - I finished the match (shot well too!) packed-up my stuff and went home. First I measured the diameter of the fired cases. All normal. I then broke the gun down and looked into the chamber to find what appeared to be a large deposit of gunk in the part of the chamber nearest the lands for about a 1/2" and about 3/4" into the lands. Now, this particular batch of bullets had more than normal waxy lube on them so I thought it was the lube building up. The lube is easilly cleaned with Ed's Red so I ran a couple soaked patches through the bore and did a light scrub with a bronze brush. It was still there. I took a fired case and it still hung-up that last 1/4". So I proceeded to scrub the crap out of the bore and chamber with an Ed's soaked bronze brush. This stuff had to be lead. I'd check the fit with a fired case every now and then and it was getting looser. Finally, I got it clean. Fired cases fell in and out.

NOW - WHAT THE HELL CAUSED THIS? My bread and butter load is with Titegroup, but I've been working with the N100 & AA2 and started using both of these as well. This never happened with the Titegroup - with the same lot of bullets even. I can't understand why the lead would be blowing back past the end of the shell. Obturation problems? This load chrony'd at 1050 fps - close to what I do with the Titegroup. I can't imagine that I'm not sealing the bore well or expandfing the case enough with the N100 - possible?

I'm stumped. Here's hoping someone out there knows what the flock is going on here !!

Thanks in advance -

I also am interested in members' responses. My 357 Ruger single actions experience the same symptoms that you describe. The first 18 rounds fall out of the cylinder, but the next group(s) require using the ejector to remove spent cartridges. I am using copper plated bullets (Winchesters). All chronographed loads are the same. A visible build-up of (?) can be seen in the cylinder. I assume that it is powder residue. All rounds are crimped.

Shawn

I'm suspicious that you may be using a heavy crimp applied in one operation as you seat the bullet. As the bullet is forced deeper into the case while the mouth of the case is being simutaneously squeezed down on it, a small ring of lead from the bullet is swaged to the outside of the case mouth.

If you must crimp, seat the bullets first to full depth with the die body backed off, then back off the seater stem and lower the die body for the correct crimp and run them through again.

That's my best theory, anyway.

Try a gas check bullet.

Ray,
What is a gas check bullet????

Shawn

Shawn,

Dino said he was using hardcast lead SWC bullets. These lead bullets are susceptible to the rear corners melting under the heat and pressure of some loads. This behavior can definitely change with a chamge in powder or primer.

A gas check bullet is a cast lead bullet with a copper "cover" on the base of the bullet. The copper prevents melting and gas cutting of the bullet base and the forward edges scrape off any lead bulid-up that does occur.

Don

As I understand it, Dino's probelem is lead deposits in the chamber REARWARD of the case mouth. Hardeness of the alloy or lack of gas check can't explain a lead deposit where there's not supposed to be any exposure to lead.

Recheck that crimp to see if lead is being forced down around the outside of the case mouth.

I ALLWAYS THOUGHT THAT YOU COULDNT OR SHOULDNT SHOOT LEAD ABOVE 1000 FPS IF YOU ARE THEN THE LEAD IS MELTING,AND MOST LIKELY MIXING WITH THE LUBE AND MAKING IT EASY TO FLOW BACK.JUST MY OPINION,ALSO MAYBE THE BATCH OF BULLETS ARE TO SOFT.

I don't think any kind of fluid, whether liquid metal or just plain old piss, is going to "flow back" against 15,000 pounds per square inch of pressure.

Shooting "Lead" is becoming more difficult to master with each passing year. Not because the Lead has changed, but the folks that know the "tricks" become fewer and fewer.

I agree with Don G that the hardness of the bullet may be such that the Lead is "spattering back" when the flame front hits the bullet base. Very similar to steel "spattering back" when an acetylene torch is used to cut a "through hole".

Also agree with Mr.Ray to try Gas-Checked bullets if you can find some. Meanwhile - try cutting some "Milk Carton" gas-checks and place them between the Powder and Bullet.

Here is how to make the "cutter": After resizing a case and expanding the mouth, be extremely careful to keep the Expander from "Flaring" the mouth any at all. Just back the Expander Die out of the press a full turn or so. Sharpen the inside of the case mouth with your deburring tool.

I used to use a Rubber Mallet and a board as my work surface. Place the opened Milk Carton on the board and cut 4-5 Milk Carton gas-checks at a time and push them out of the cutter with a small wire through the flash hole so you can grasp them with your fingers. I opened the flash hole with a drill bit so I could use a bigger wire to push them out.

You can also experiment with thin cardboard similar to the carton that toothpaste comes in.

That "might" fix the problem and then again, it might not. Get some books that deal strickly with shooting Lead Bullets and you will be amazed at all the things that can create this problem.

Lead bullets are well worth the effort to get running properly in your firearm(pistol, revolver or rifle). Barrels will last from 10-50 times as long as when shooting jacketed bullets.

WOW ! Thanks to you all for responding !!

Let me "respond" myself to some of the info and questions posted:

1) STONECREEK: I don't crimp much at all. I expand the case with a custom made M-die style expander to 0.002" overall larger than the bullet diameter. In my taper-crimp die, I just crimp enough to close the brass. ZERO indentation at all in the bullet, zero "dig" into the lead. I basically just lay the brass down onto the bullet. I know what's next - now I'm not crimping enough, right!

I use an undersized full-length size die to keep the .32 mag case tight on .308 & .309 dia. bullet - and they are ! I really don't need to crimp at all as the bullet is tight all by itself in the case once seated. You can see a definite bullet profile in the finished round - and they DON'T move, spin or other.

2) DON G: I've run hotter loads than this one, maybe not with N100, but with other powders and didn't see this. Are you saying that all other things being equal - including velocity, excluding charge weight and powder type, a particular load may be HOTTER than another? Enough to fry the lead?

3) SNOWMAKER: I've always shot this load just over 1000 fps. This is the first time I experienced this problem. NOW - as I asked Don above - could it be the N100 that is hotter than the Titegroup??? As for the bullets, this was nearly the end of a 500 piece lot. The 400 before these didn't do this.

4) STONECREEK (again) I agree 100% - I know I couldn't piss at 15,000 psi !

5) HOT CORE: Milk carton gas-checks, eh? Interesting. How do you get them to stick to the back of the bullet? I like research - any specific (i.e., really good)books on shooting lead I should start with?

6) I'm going to use some N100 under some .308 FMJ HP's I have and see if I get any junk in the chamber and bore. If so it's gotta be the N100 powder. I have a new batch of .309 hard-cast SWC's as well. I'll run some of those through with Titegroup and the N100. Maybe even some rounds loaded with AA#2 for the heck of it too!

If you're interested, stay tuned !

THANKS A HEAP GUYS (and girls??) !! Please feel free to respond more - especially to my comments and questions above.

See my answer in your e-mail...

Dino,

My experience with lead bullets suggests that most bullets on the market today are cast from alloys too hard for the loads we use. Loads that generate lower pressure need softer bullets. Look at the .32 S&W long target loads; they're swaged lead and low pressure. They've never caused a leading problem for me. Also notice that as cowboy shoots became more popular manufacturers started to offer special "cowboy loads" some of which actually addressed the need for softer alloys when used with these low velocity, low pressure loads.

I use a commercial hard cast 100 grain LSWC in my .32 H&R's. One is a Single Six and the other is a rifle. I use fairly stout loads of H110 in both and don't experience any leading. My rifle has a .308" bore but I still use cast bullets sized to .312" or .313". Since you are using bullets sized to .309 you may well want to explore gas checked bullets or a softer alloy. As your surmized the powder may also be a contributing factor. I have used Unique and Universal at about 800 fps and didn't have a leading problem either. Good luck and let us know what you find.

-Mike

ROUND 2:

Hot Core:

1) The problem occured with LEAD bullets. I was going to use COPPER-jacketed bullets to test out a theory in regards to the powder - eliminate one variable at a time.

2) Expander - well, it's smaller and bigger. I took a standard, hardened, .32 cal expander plug, ground the front of it (that part which goes into the case the most) down to 0.307" +.000"/-.0005". The last 0.060', I ground to 0.3105" (with a gentle taper down to the .307 dia.) to acommodate a .30 cal and .309 dia. bullet. I basically turned a stock Lee expander plug into a Lyman M-die Expander plug. This allows the bullet to sit nice and parallel to the case while you're seating it. The standard Lee expander bells the case, which causes the bullet to sit crooked and therefore enter the case crooked.

3) When I refer to taper-crimp, I mean in the Lee Precision sense of the term. I taper-crimp my .32 H&R mag, my .45 ACP and my 7mm TCU. The single-shot rounds VERY, VERY little. The .45, as little as it takes. There is no cannelures on any of these. The TAPER crimp keeps the end of the shell case perpendicular to the longitudinal bullet axis, allowing it to headspace on the case-mouth properly. The only round of these that utilizes this "feature" is the .45 ACP.

The press I use allows me to set the depth on the die to ALWAYS hit the same spot when pulling a full stroke. This allows very precise, repeatable depth seating and crimping pressures. I can run 100 straight bullet seatings and maintain a .001" tolerance band on OAL. And yes -I use the Lee case length gauge and trimming system. Cheap, effective and repeatable.

I just might give the milk-carton idea a try !

I'll also search the library for some good lead bullet books.

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ROUND 2:

Hot Core:

1) The problem occured with LEAD bullets. I was going to use COPPER-jacketed bullets to test out a theory in regards to the powder - eliminate one variable at a time.

2) Expander - well, it's smaller and bigger. I took a standard, hardened, .32 cal expander plug, ground the front of it (that part which goes into the case the most) down to 0.307" +.000"/-.0005". The last 0.060', I ground to 0.3105" (with a gentle taper down to the .307 dia.) to acommodate a .30 cal and .309 dia. bullet. I basically turned a stock Lee expander plug into a Lyman M-die Expander plug. This allows the bullet to sit nice and parallel to the case while you're seating it. The standard Lee expander bells the case, which causes the bullet to sit crooked and therefore enter the case crooked.

3) When I refer to taper-crimp, I mean in the Lee Precision sense of the term. I taper-crimp my .32 H&R mag, my .45 ACP and my 7mm TCU. The single-shot rounds VERY, VERY little. The .45, as little as it takes. There is no cannelures on any of these. The TAPER crimp keeps the end of the shell case perpendicular to the longitudinal bullet axis, allowing it to headspace on the case-mouth properly. The only round of these that utilizes this "feature" is the .45 ACP.

The press I use allows me to set the depth on the die to ALWAYS hit the same spot when pulling a full stroke. This allows very precise, repeatable depth seating and crimping pressures. I can run 100 straight bullet seatings and maintain a .001" tolerance band on OAL. And yes -I use the Lee case length gauge and trimming system. Cheap, effective and repeatable.

I just might give the milk-carton idea a try !

I'll also search the library for some good lead bullet books.

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To z1r:

The lead bullets I am using are Magnus #205's - standard commercial fare. Never had this problem before I used N100. I've been so advisd that my load is probably not hot enough to expand the case enough to seal the chamber which is allowing blow-back of the gasses and "splat" of the first remnants of melted lead.

Of course - Maybe if I crimped harder, more pressure would build-up . . .

HA ! I have a SERIES of tests planned for resolving my little problem this weekend. None involve any unsafe actions. None involve any animal blood, sacrifical offerings to the Shooting Gods or voo-doo. There will however be a LOT of lead flyin' ! I better bring a spare battery for my Chrony too !

Thanks again guys,
Dino

Are you using brass or nickle plated cases if they are nickled it comes lose in the reloading process. You will start to see scratchs on the brass and then little particles on the cases. If this is happening your dies will need lapped out to remove the offending nickle. As chamber pressure is higher than sizing pressure you could have gotten some nickle build up started.If you have nickled brass throw it away and save the headackes that it can bring.

REPLY TO ODDBALLSHOOTER:

Thanks for the response - good thought ! This is regular brass though. No nickle plate. I looked into nickle-plated brass when I started repoading and heard it was nothig but a pain in the ass. Never touched it !

EUREKA !!! By Jove, I think I've got it !

Sent a lot of lead flying Sunday. All through the chrony. Turns out, it appears to be the N100. That load, of all 6 differant loads I shot - was THE fastest and hottest ! (well, except for those I shot out of the 7mm TCU - broke my scope crosshairs dammit !! - DON't BUY TASCO !)

Anyhow, I shot 10 of the N100 loads and sure as shit, started getting the same build-up I had at the match. Cleaned the barrel and chamber REAL WELL and shot another 50 rounds using Titegroup. Three different bullets - lead, FMJ-RN (exposed lead-core) and FMJ-HP (damn do these group nice!). Not a drop of residue, no blow-back, primers fine.

I have to make the call that it's the N100 and lead combo. I don't know if I want to waste FMJ bullets to just prove it's the N100 though, or even work to lighten the load up some. Got some great loads with the Titegroup and AA2. Why go there, eh?

Thanks to ALL you for responding. Let's keep this string running if you want - maybe we can go after the "Matchking" record !

[ 07-02-2002, 00:05: Message edited by: Dino32HR ]