I am planing to build a 450NE 3 1/4 for cape buffalo and as my backup rifle for Africa.

Couldn't find loads in my manuals - does anyone have loads for this round?
I want to use GS FNs in 400gr or 450gr only.

Can the 400gr be driven up to 2400fps?
What velocity can be expected for these bullets?

Franz

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Franz A. Holzer

Franz@Holzer.com

Franz,

I would love to help you test loads for your .450! A shame you're a bit far away.

You need a copy of "Any Shot You Want", the A-Square Handloading & Rifle Manual, edited by Art Alphin. You'll have to find it via a used book store, but it's worth the effort.

The author, Terry Wieland, says: "Before handloading for any vintage double, it is highly recommended that you have both bores slugged, and chamber casts made, to ensure the rifle will accommodate modern bullets. This is especially important with the .450 Nitro Express (3 1/4") because so many were made, by so many different gunmakers, large and small, famous and obscure, and chances are that any rifle encountered will have had a long and probably arduous life, and may be badly worn." Since you are building a rifle, wear is not likely an issue, but it may be good advice for others.

On page 545, maximum average pressure for the .450 N.E. 3 1/4 is listed as 44,267 PSI or 39,187 CUP. Cartridge case was A-Square brand, trim-to length is 3.240 inches; primer was CCI 250, lot G12A. Powders tried were H-4831, lot 3074; RL-19, lot 94117; IMR-4350, lot 6572.

Testing for this manual was limited to a 465 grain monolithic solid bullet. The following are listed starting loads:
95.0 H-4831
88.0 IMR-4350
94.0 RL-19

All 3 loads listed above provided velocities between 2048 & 2059 fps in 26 inch barrels.
Factory ammunition ballistics are listed as a 480 grain bullet of .458 diameter at 2150 fps.

You'll have to ask Gerard about specifics for his 400 & 450 FN bullets in this cartridge, but 2400 with a 400 seems to me to be a bit much given the pressure restrictions.

I hope this helps,
BigIron

[This message has been edited by BigIron (edited 01-13-2002).]

No way to get 2400 FPS safely out of the 450 and even if could it wouldn't regulate...but 84 grs of RL-15 will drive a 480 gr. bullet at 2150 FPS and that will lay low any animal on the face of this earth, I'd cut one grain for a 500 gr. bullet...both should regulate pretty close...the 400 gr. defeats the purpose and beauty of the 450-31/4, that being penitration....must'ent stub up these old bullets you know....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Daydreamer>

Yes, it is possible, there is no problem to get 2600fps with standard 500gr FMJ, but from Ruger #1 or Big bolt action. I belive you mean to build double rifle, velocities around 2000fps are fine and capable to kill anything fast. Only advantage of higher speed is flatter trajectory, but it is not usefull with doubles. Another fact is much higher recoil and if you would like to use your rifle as back up, with high kick you may not be able to proper aim and place second shot !!! Penetration will not raise with growing speed, so there is really no reason to drive it 2400fps or so . . . Maybe, someone will be able to build or rechamber strong over/under to accept 2400fps loads, but why ? . . .

Jiri

Daydreamer, if You need the page from "Any shot You want" about the .450 NE, mail me, I fax it to You.

Where do You buy / let make the gun?

What 480 grs bullets will You use?

Waidmannsheil! Hermann

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Thanx all for replying!

The 450 will be build on a Tikka O/U rifle. It will be the second barrel set to my 7x65R along with my 9.3x74R.

The CIP max pressure for the Tikka O/U system is 30/06 3500bar and the 450NE only has 2700bar.

Gerard claims additional 100-150fps for his HVs and FNs, if the 480gr can be driven to 2150fps the 2400fps for the 400grains doesn't sound to far away... we'll see.

Jiri
As I understand there is the "you need 2400fps" rule for DGR around here, OK this is nothing you have to worry about if you go for 500gr, but the 2400fps are in the line of Gerards policy - step down in bullet weigth and drive them hard enough to penitrate....

ahunter
My gunsmith in Vienna is Martin Kruschits, the work for the 450NE barrel set wont be on the cheap side - about $2000 or so.
(My fax# is +43/1/71730/56963 if you be so kind to send it!)

Ray
The new 450NE will be build for the 400gr or 450gr FNs - so I don't have to care about regulation. I will develop a load, get the max pressure checked first, step down 1 or 2 grains for accuracy and heat pressure peaks - then build the rifle.
Question Ray - you always claim to have "long throated" chaimbers - do you think I should ask for that on the barrels I order? Will it help to lower pressure and will it give me more options for load development? Gerard advises to seat the bullet against the lands - will a long throat then reduce accuracy.

Cheers

Franz

Franz,

Does the Tikka O/U have a machanism for adjusting barrel regulation, or are they permanently regulated as with a side-by-side double??

BigIron

Last time I looked, Sinclair still had Art Alphin's book new.

BigIron

The Tikka standard barrel set has a mechanism to ajust the barrels, but for the 450 I don't think it is a good idea to go for that.
I don't belive the mechanism is strong enough to hold regulations for that caliber I am still discussing this with my gunsmith.
Of course it would be a plus to be able to reulate the barrels for the loads, but I haven't seen any of the heavy doubles that have that, so I belive it simply doesn't work for them.

Franz

Perhaps they don't use the regulating device on the big bores because it isn't traditional. I would be very curious to see if it would work. I have a Valmet 412, the predecessor of the Tikka, and am always interested in experiments on one. Keep us posted, please. - Dan

I discussed the building of the barrel set with my gunsmith yesterday, he said the adjusment mechanism will be cheaper to build than to fixed regulate the rifle, so I will go for that.

He takes the rifle to our goverment department for gunsmithing and firearm security to check if they are willing to accept a change barrel set in 450NE for the TIKKA 512S.

If they say it is safe - and they have to give their OK in regard to safety to every firearm build here - then work will start on this little project!

I'll keep you all posted on this subject!

Franz

Your post got me thinking ( I know - dangerous ). I could start with a Ruger #1 in .45-70. For liability reasons I would like to start with .458, but I�m not sure rechambering to .450NE 3 1/4" is possible.

I would shoot some really stout loads through it, to get an impression what I really want ( spell: recoil I can take ). That�s easy, I have .45-70 dies and 300 grs bullets. Will just add a little more powder. And will make sure to mark those rounds, so I don�t get them in my Browning. Eventually I would buy a box of Remingtons 400 grs bullets, which i want anyway.

Then I would buy a reamer for .450 NE 3 1/4". Hopefully with throater included. Then I would start load development work, usind that gun with open sights and with the furnished Ruger rings and a Weaver 2 3/4" ( cheap ).

If all is o.K. and I win the lottery, I would order a Heym Safari ( 88 Safari? ) S/S double in that caliber, and I would send them the reamer, so chambers will be as close as possible. Perhaps I can send them a solid/soft combo load which will have low pressures even under the African sun, and still meet the 2150 ft/s ...

Thinking can be dangerous

Hermann

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BTW, "Any shot you want" lists only loads with 465 grs bullets. I can�t read that "Trio" from AA any more. Sure a good concept, but Westley Richards had it long ago.

IIRC the .450 3 1/4" was loaded originally with 480 grs bullets. If Winchester had taken those for their .458 they would have had a little more powder space. And we would have lots of 480 grs .458 bullets, so I will eventually have to use 500 grs solids for regulating my "dream" double.

Who knows sources for "correct" 480 grainers. Also who has loading data for any bullet weight for the .450 NE??

Good shooting! Hermann

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Hermann

Having the concept of Gerards FNs and HVs in mind, I'm not so focused on the use of the real 480gr bullets for the 450NE. Want to get Gerards opinion on that, but I am pretty sure he will vote for the 400gr HV and FN combo - I'd guess the lenght of the copper bullets is the same to standard 480grainers.

I also think about having Lothar Walter polygon-barrels used for the new barrel-set, because I will use copper bullets only - should help prevent fouling and will make cleaning easier. Not a traditional thing too

PS:
The fax you sent got lost.... may you send it again and write my name on it?
(Couldn't send an email because it is not on your userdata - send a mail if you want to stay in contact directly - will be near Zwettl for hunting on 25.-27.01.)

Cheers

Franz

Your concept of adapting 450 barrels to a smaller caliber O/U double is interesting. It also makes it more inexpensive to get into big bore double shooting. I thought of doing the same thing - and using the Tikka/Valmet regulating system - on a Brno Super O/U. A similar (but not quite) regulating system can be found on the Krieghoff Classic s/s in calibers 9.3 and down. Not 'traditional' but it works.

By the way, rechambering a Ruger #1 in 458WM to 450NE is a not complicated.

Vasa

Vasa, both are straight rounds. So I figured the belt of the .458WM would interfere with the rim for the .450 NE. I understand by setting back the barrel one thread its possible, but I thought to omit that step might save money. And save 1/10" barrel lenght ;-)

daydreamer, will fax the page Thursday afternoon.

Good shooting! Hermann

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aHunter: Hello guy, I posted this link many times but here is link for 450 Nitro Express Ruger #1 http://www.billsaccuracy.com/nitro.htm . . .

Jir�, thanks. Could you please check the link, it seems not to work. I keep on trying.

Did you buy a 8x75RS?

Your thread on rare cartridges was quite interesting. I have a friend who has one of those German 7.92 mm 1938 AT rounds. But he won�t part with it ...

Hermann

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Daydreamer: I will be getting my Ruger No. 1 Tropical in .458 back from the gunsmith in the next week or two after being rechambered to .450 NE. There is in fact a gentle taper to the .450 case, that cleans up the belt and chamber of a .458 WM nicely. I don't intend to heat this one up much beyond traditional velocities with smokeless or black, though.

aHunter: This link work fine (I am using IE, maybe Netscape could has problem or server temporary down or so). I am still dreaming about 8x75RS . . . but I am sure I will have one in future !

Jiri