Would someone be willing to run a Quickload run for me? I am trying to get to 3200 fps in my 223 WSSM with a 75 Gr. Amax. The Powell calculator is 200 fps off, and I would rather not send any more bullets down the bore than I have to during load development. Nor does running it up into proof load territory excite me, anymore. I must be getting old .

Pertinent data: Case capacity: 54 gr. of water. Cartridge length: 2.375". Bullet: 75 Gr. Hor. Amax.

Results so far:
42 Gr. of h4831sc gives 3093 fps. 40 gr. 2975.
43 gr. of 7828 gives 3085. 40 gr. 2880.

Again, I am trying to get to 3200 fps at the lowest pressure.

TIA, Dutch.

Dutch:
I ran this for you .
Note that Quick Load does not have the .223 WSSM in their library yet. So I ran it as a wildcat. This still should give you a good estimate .

The powder that best suits your request for 3200fps with the lowest max chamber pressure is Norma MRP. This is in a 24 inch barrel!The load that comes closest is

44.5gr of Norma MRP

Hornady 75 gr A-max

Pmax of 48744 psi.

velocity 3207 fps.

I hope this helps.
Let me know how well this fits field conditions.
muck

[ 06-22-2003, 02:06: Message edited by: muck ]

Thanks Muck!

I'm really pleased to see the pressure staying down that far. I expected to see about 55,000 PSI.

Unfortunately, I have no local supply of Norma powders. Are there any Winchester, Hodgdon, IMR, Ramshot, Accurate or Alliant powders close? I have RL19,22, H and IMR4831, and 7828 on the shelf, and can get just about any of the other powders locally. If it is not too much to ask, would you email me the output so I can look at it? Oddball@ida.net. Thanks again. Dutch.

Dutch,
Ran you data in AccuLoad and selected MRP, just for comparison as it wasn't a "recommended" powder.
44.5-gr. MRP
3250 fps
49,300 psi
89% used case capacity

35.2-gr. VV-N550
3,150 fps
47,500 psi
83% used case capacity

39.1-gr. VV-N350
3,300 fps
54,900 psi
92% used case capacity

36.3-gr. RL-19
3,130 fps
47,200 psi
81% used case capacity

40.3-gr. RL19
3,280 fps
54,800 psi
90% used case capacity

Dutch,
I assumed that your case capacity was full to the case mouth. Ran a comparison using MRP, although it wasn't a "recommended" powder by AccuLoad, and got the following results:

44.5-gr. MRP (slower than recommended)
3,250 fps
49,300 psi
89% used case capacity

35.2-gr. VV-N550
3,150 fps
47,500 psi
83% used case capacity

39.1-gr. VV-N550
3,300 fps
54,900 psi
92% used case capacity

36.3-gr. RL19
3,130 fps
47,200 psi
81% used case capacity

40.3-gr. RL19
3,280 fps
54,800 psi
90% used case capacity

Regards,
HockeyPuck

Hockeypuck, your assumption is correct, capacity measured to the top of the casemouth.

I have a question for you, though: why would Accuload classify MRP as "slower than recommended"? My understanding is that it either "almost the same" or "the same" as RL22 (depending who you listen to). From the data you list, it looks like the MRP produces the same velocity at lower pressures than RL19.

BTW, yes, the barrel is 24", and the primer is CCI BR. Dutch.

Dutch:
My e-mail is down so I will post here.

IMR 7828 : 44.3 gr
Pmax=50055 psi : Vel= 3204 fps

Ramshot Magnum : 47.8 gr
Pmax= 49770 psi : Vel= 3204 fps

Win WXR : 44.3 gr
Pmax=50961 psi : Vel= 3207

Reloader 22 : 44.0 gr
Pmax= 50585 psi : Vel= 3202

The othet powders you mentioned either had predicted pressures much higher than those above or required a compressed load.
Again good luck and please let me know how well the Quickload program predicted results.

muck

Muck, thanks again, and I certainly will do. I had called h4831 as the "most likely to succeed" ahead of time.

Funny thing is that in the new Hornady manual the fastest speeds are reached with H4350. Go figure? Dutch.

HockeyPuck, can you tell ma a little about the program you are using, how and where to get it?

I have found realguns.com to be handy and surprisingly accurate for determining tradjectory. PointBlank is ok, but more for record keeping than actual prediction.

Looks like the program you have is VERY cool!

Dutch,
I don't know the answer to your question. Our programmer and ballistics guru created the formulas that are used within AccuLoad and I'm unsure of the limiting factors on powder choice. I do know that AccuLoad will list the recommended powders and give you the option of comparing with powders that are "somewhat" faster or slower than recommended. Send me your email at ed@aement.com and I'll email you a PDF of the load calculation results.

Express,
AccuLoad is available on the Internet at www.aement.com. As you are outside the US, please read the FAQ on how to order from countries other than the US.
Regards,
HockeyPuck

Muck, here are some interim results:

7828, Avg. vel. stdev
43 grs: 3024 10
44 grs: 3111 8
45 grs: 3288 32

RL22
43 grs: 3261 21
44 grs: 3316 13

A couple of observations, the 7828 is a little slower than predicted, the RL22 is a little faster. Slight cratering on the primer on the top loads of both. The RL22 loads are sooted to the bottom of the case shoulder. Given that the burn rate appears to be slightly faster than the 7828, which doesn't soot at all, I'm not sure what that means.

Two things stand out: the increase from 44 to 45 makes 7828 squirrily. from 41 to 44 grains, the increase in velocity is about 80 fps per grain. Then from 44 to 45, the increase is 177! Something is uncomfortable there, especially given that the st. dev goes nuts, too. All loads weighed, off course.

Second, if I throw out one shot on the 43 gr. of RL22, the Stdev. drops to 1. Yes, 1! An ES of 3 on four shots! Given that it also produced a .48" group (which is as good as I can shoot with a sporter configuration), me-thinks we have a good place to start load development .

Thanks again for the help, Dutch.

[ 06-26-2003, 18:04: Message edited by: Dutch ]

Dutch :
Now I am scratching my head. But the numbers are with in reason for a "loading program".
I have also run into loads that spike a little as you work up.

The predicted max load for IMR 7828 is 47.2 grains, at 104% of capicity.

Pressure projected for 45 grains is 52,757 psi just under 10,000 psi below Pmax.

Now as for a standard deviation of " 1 " that's just not fair! I hold a party when I can stumble onto a load that gets into single didgets and I don't party very often (too old now any way). Really that is fantastic. And it seems to shoot well too .48" is pretty good!

muck

[ 06-28-2003, 02:25: Message edited by: muck ]

Dutch, I dont have a reloading program but I have referred to my chrono results in a 220 Swift AI (capacity 55.5 grains), and .224 Clark (capacity 64.0 grains) to get an idea on the best powders for the .223 WSSM with the 75 Amax.

I also have found that IMR 7828 can be spikey and unpredictable around maximum pressure. It seemed to act predictably in my 220 Swift AI at maximum with the 60,69, 74 grain bullets. However, in my .224 Clark while it gave the highest velocities with the 69, and 75 grain bullets, it behaved unpredictably around maximum pressure, so I decided against using it in my field loads. It also acted unpredictably in my 25/06 AI.

It was interesting to see that your chrono results with Re 22 and IMR 7828. I found that the burning rate of IMR 7828 was about 0.5 grains slower than that of RE 22 in my .224 Clark. Using the 75 Amax, 53.0 grains of Re 22 gave 3770
fps, and 53.5 grains of IMR 7828 gave 3832 fps.

Looking at your results with the 75 Amax, I believe that the use of slower powders with similar burning rate such as H1000, Re 25, Viht 170, Ramshot Magnum, will be a better bet. They will give you close to 100% loading density and my experience has been that achieving this will usually give you more stable and predictable results.

In my .224 Clark, H1000,etc were 3.0 to 4.0 grains slower than IMR 7828 with the 75 grain Amax. So I predict that in your .223 WSSM. if you work up to about 47.0 to 48.5 grains with these powders you are more likely to achieve your aims.

In the late 80's when I had my .220 Swift AI (25.25 inch barrel), the 75 Amax was not available, but I did test the 74 grain RWS Cone Point, and with IMR 7828:
47.0 grains - 3501 fps
47.5 grains - 3542 fps Max
48.0 grains - 3589 fps Slightly above max

52.0 grains H870 - 3262 fps (mild pressure)
53.0 grains H870 - 3294 fps (mild ", compressed load)

As the capacities of the 223 WSSM and .220 Swift AI, are very similar it will be interesting to compare the results of your testing. Regards, Brian

Muck, I agree, the results are well within the random variation of powder lots, primer lots, etc. Quite amazing how close they both got, really.

When I went back to the bench, a surprise was waiting for me. Not a single case had it's neck expanded out. All could have the bullet reseated (if I wanted to), without resizing. Now, this is not a tight neck setup (.01 clearance), so pressures really are not extrememly high. I'm sure the case neck thickness (.020") has something to do with that, but I've never seen it happen before. The factory loads sure expanded out. It does explain the sooty case shoulders, though.

Brian, that is great corroberation of the data. It looks like the Swift AI is a virtual duplicate. As far as powders are concerned, I called Ramshot on Friday to ask about primer selection (use standard primers), and they claim that Magnum is also a very temp stable powder. That puts it above RL22 in my mind, as there is a big difference between shooting varmints in the 90 degree heat, and coyotes over the calving field at 0. Anyway, I'll go get a couple of pounds this afternoon. FWIW, Dutch.