I have a Tanzania Buffalo hunt comming up in July and am planning to take my 470 Nitro with me. I have plenty of Federal factory ammo and will take only factory ammo on the hunt. My question is what powder and weight should I use for reloading for practice shooting that best duplicates Federal loads with the 500 grain bullets?

Jim I recommend you get Shooting the British Double Rifle by Graeme Wright.
For 500gr. Woodleigh soft points start with 87gr. of RL-15. Go up one grain at a time until the right and left bbl shoot together. 90 grains should be about max. You MUST use some sort of filler between the powder and the bullet. Use either dacron pillow stuffing [@5grains] or foam. You can cut the foam with a sharpened 50 BMG case. The filler should be compressed. Use the Federal 215 Magnum primer.
For a lighter recoil load use 350gr. Hawk bullets with 75gr of IMR 3031. You MUST still use a filler [compressed].
These loads shot good in a friends 470 double.

[ 02-09-2003, 05:28: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

I've never run Federal ammo through the chrony, but I have some reloading data for that caliber at:

http://stevespages.com/page8c.htm

Jim,
The Federal brass and Norma brass weigh about the same, but BELL brass is about 50 grains heavier. They are all good choices but loads need to be adjusted accordingly.

With BELL brass and a fiber wad of 5 or 6 grains weight, expect 87 to 88 grains of RL-15 to be the ticket, with F-215 primers of course, and 500 grain Woodleigh RNSP's.

With the lighter, greater capacity Federal or Norma brass, and using a 1/2" thick wad of foam cut from light packing foam with a chamfer sharpened .50 cal case, expect up to 92 grains of Rl-15. Use a grain less powder with the solids, or do as the chronograph and the crossing load findings dictate.

Start around 85 grains and work up, to crossing velocity.

I found the Federal factory ammo to be giving about 2050 to 2100 fps, depending on the bullet type, in a 23-3/4" barreled Merkel double, and with a lot of variation in the extreme spread, with an occasional lowball load.

The handloads were much more uniform velocity wise and would shoot groups half the size of the Federal factory ammo. A velocity of about 2125 fps is easily attained with the above handload guidelines.

I would feel better taking my handloads to Africa than the factory loads by Federal. They use no filler in the Federal factory loads, but the hotter F-216 primer that we cannot get as a component.

I have reloaded and fired a lot of ammunition thru my 470,476, and 465 double rifles.I have never used any filler at all and the above rifles shoot extremely well. I would use filler if any of the cases were 3 1/2" long as in a 475#2.
This is of course one mans opinion and the choice is yours.

holland465,
Are you using slower powders than RL-15? Federal uses RL-15 and the hotter F216 primer with no filler.

I will be trying the slower powders, like H4831 and RL-22, and no filler, with the F215 primer. No filler is needed there for sure, and lower peak pressures can be obtained than with RL-15, though the lower pressure peak might be farther down the barrel and might not be good for antique, thin barreled guns. I am sure the Mighty Merkel can handle it.

Most of us get much more uniform and accurate loads with RL-15 by using a filler, in the 470 NE, 3-1/4" case. I have verified that the no-filler loads by Federal can be pretty erratic, even with their hotter F-216 primer, and they do seem to use RL-15.

If ou do not want to use fillers, and I DO NOT.
try H4831 and 7828. In one .470 and BELL brass
106 gr 4831 grouped well at 2100fps The other .470 shot best with either 114 or 116 gr of 7828 using Fed 215 primers for 2125 fps this last load is pretty much a full case and shot to shot
variation is a lot less than any other loads that I tried. I would start this latter load at about 112 grains and fire right and left to see how they group.
George

Me with George.

In my two Wilkes and one Manton between 105 - 109grns of 4831. BELL brass. No filler, not ever. Full cases only. You have to play around a bit for each rifle.

I agree with Ron on the inconsistancy of Federal Premiums. And would take handloads instead.

Hi Guys,

I have used lots of the Federal Premium Safari ammo in 470 with super results. Right and left barrel will make one ragged hole at 50 yards. The 476 Westley Richards will do almost as well with the right and left barrel shooting approximately 3/4" apart. Now the 465 H&H will shoot about 1 to 1 1/2" apart at the same range. I ahve tried different powders in these guns and always come back to the R-15.I have never used any filler at all and hopefully will not use any in the near future. I am curious about the IMR 7828. I have not tried that one as yet.Do you think the results are as good as R-15?

Thanks,

Dave

Hollland 465
I found the 7828 load whil looking for load that would be as nearly a full case as possiable. The doubles that I have played with will show nearly 178fps difference when using faster powders. I tried holding the muzzle down then carefully shooting it. Then Holding the muzzle up and putting all of the powder against the primer. This is why filler is used by most double useres
4831 and 7828 do not require fillers and are very consistant shot-to-shot. You may have to play around with the load to get your indivdual rife to
group . I was able to get both .470's to group with this method.
George

Thanks, George, you have explained what I saw with the no-filler RL-15 Federal ammo with a lot of air space in the case. I saw velocities of 1900 to 2100 fps.

I am decided now to go to full case loads of the slower powders. I have a new batch of BeLL brass that I will use for a fresh start with H4831,IMR-7828, or RL-22, whatever works best for me.

DaggaRon,
I have found the Federal cases I have weigh an average of 336.4 grains, Norma, 316.09 and Bell, 306.9. The Federal brass is once fired and the Bell and Norma are new unfired brass.

Jim Miller

With IMR 4831, 105 grains will duplicate factory velocity (2100-2150 fps). In the Ruger #1, you can work all the way up to 115 grains (about all you can get in under a 500 grain bullet). This gives 2344 FPS. However, if you have a double of the same caliber, this could be disasterous if the ammo got mixed.

Ron

Try IMR 4831 also. Less powder, same result.

Even with 100gr. of IMR 4831 and 480 or 500gr. bullets in the 450 No2 I will get "hang" fires if I do not use a filler. The same will be true for the 475 No2, both have a 3 1/2" case.
The main thing about fillers is that they should be compressed between powder and bullet. A small amount of filler has been known to "ring" a chamber. I have used dacron polyester, and foam in the same loads and could tell no difference in point of impact. Foam is easier to use because you do not have to weigh it, just cut it out as DaggaRon states.
I still think you could have a safe load with almost any of our current rifle powders. After all if you cam load safe loads with IMR 4198 [Nitro for Black], 3031 and 4831, 7828, H1000 etc, why not all the powders in between? A double is no different than any other rifle, the load has to be at a safe pressure and be accurate in two barrels "glued" together. Oh.... just do not use Monolithic bullets as they might bust the "glue".

Well, I will have to recheck the case weights. Maybe old and new lots and the makers have varied the construction?

Well, whatever. I am going to continue to use the RL-15 and filler in the Norma and Federal brass. Such a tiny wad is required for the 470 NE that it couldn't possibly be a problem. It is just a nuisance making wads of foam or Dacron. I really think that in the 470 NE either is fine, as long as the powder charge and type of wad are matched.

I will however, work up a load with one of the slower powders and no filler for my BeLL brass, and be consistent with the loads by case weight, whatever it might be.

Yes, Mickey, IMR 4831 is a candidate for me too.

The GSC FN (with low pressure deforming driving bands to soften them) or Woodleigh FMJ's are the only solids I will load. Otherwise it is strictly Woodleigh RNSP's.