Folks,

I am curious to what tolerances you try to load your *hunting* ammo?

I am talking about powder charge weight, COL, run out ect; in fact anything people might measure...I am primarily interested in the medium bores for load's to be used for hunting..

Also when reloading hunting ammo, how many people keep detailed records and if ,so what do you record..

Regards,

Pete

FWIW--I'm not sure I'm sold on the idea that ammo has to have unbelievable runnout to be good ammo. I do try and "tune my dies" to make the best runnout possible. After finding a load combo that shoots really good I will probably load up 30 rounds for a hunt that might have shooting at 300-400 yds. For Wisconsin brush hunting almost anything goes.
This fall I have the good fortune of meeting a friend up in Alaska for a carribou hunt. Being that this qualifies for long range shooting my procedure will be the following. I will load 30-40 rounds of my favorite load. Any bullets that seat with a "strange effort" (Ie. a feeling that I shaved a bullet heal) will get a black mark on the primer. All my loads will have individually weighed charges on a scale and all will have primer pockets unitformed, and all will have match grade primers.
Then I will take all my loaded rounds and check them for runnout. Anything under .002" will get a green mark on the primer, anything .002-.005" will get no mark on the primer and anything over .005" will get a black primer.

I will go to the range and sight my 300 wby in dead on at 300 yds. I will use the black primed ammo to do this. It will still shoot very well. I may also shoot a round or two of the non marked primers but all the green primers are saved for the hunt. I will go on my hunt with the reamaining 20 or so shells that I have left and I will chamber the green primed rounds and procede to hunt. If during my practice anything seems to not be working as planned I will scrap that batch of ammo and start with a new batch. I've never had to scratch a batch of ammo though.
I usually try to use brass that is either brand new and of high quality like the new hornady match grade brass or 1-2x fired brass. (not brass fired more than 2x's. Just my procedure--works for me....gun will shoot better than I can in field conditions.

I used to just slam some ammo together based on the reloading books. That was 40 years ago. What I do now is to visit the forums for benchrest shooting or other accuracy related shooting. I look at what they do and then look at my current reloading method and see if I can adapt without a lot of hassle. I have significantly changed my attitude about reloading.

The first thing I did was change from general purpose dies. For instance for 308 I use a Redding bushing die that sizes the body and uses a bushing to size the neck. I measure my brass and then choose a bushing that will reduce my necks to just .004 less than bullet diameter(sometimes less). I then load a dummy round and then cycle it trough my rifle to ensure proper cycling. I do not use an expander for the neck. If I have
brass that needs that I do that separately and only once in the life of the brass.

Brass - I use all the same brand and use Winchester unless I can get Lapua.
Primers - I use Winchester but there are other fine primers.
Primer pockets - I uniform them with a K&M uniformer reamer. I discard any brass with a loose pocket.
I use a Stoney point device to deteremine correct seating depth with the hunting bullet I want to use. Of course there are other factors such as magazine length and the use of cannalured bullets.
I trim all my cases to a uniform length and inside and outside chamfer them. I use a K&M reamer for the inside of the case mouth. Very uniform and shallower taper than typical reamer does.
I always seat my bullets first without crimping at all. I then either roll or taper crimp them with a separate die. A great reason to pick up a used, cheap second set of dies for your rifle. I have several bench rest seating dies but don't think they are worth the extra money for hunting ammo. I would suggest using Hornady's seating die since it uses a floating collar that keeps your bullet from canting.

I choose a powder that meters uniformly and check my powder measure during the reloading session.
I DO NOT USE HOT LOADS - EVER!

After I am done, I use my electronic scale and weigh each round. This way I can find those that did not get
a powder charge. I am a careful reloader, but I recognize human nature and this ensures that I wasn't less than attentive during reloading. I also feel the primers at this time to ensure they seated correctly. If they didn't I put them aside to be disassembled later with a collet type bullet pulling die. I never use an
inertia type bullet extractor.

The final step is to take the ammo and cycle every stinking round through my rifle to ensure proper function before I go elk hunting.

I use a progressive press that allows me to do manual indexing such as the new RCBS 2000 or the older Ammo Master. The Dillon 550 series would also be a great choice. If you don't want to do manual indexing, then
the Dillon 650 is great. An alternative would be a rotary head press from Lyman or RCBS. That way you have
all your dies ready to use.
Other rules. ONLY ONE POWDER ON THE BENCH at one time. No exceptions.
One primer type on the bend at a time.
Cleanliness.
Clean out primer feed tubes before each use. Primer dust builts up and it is explosive.
Water soluble case lube or preferably Imperial Sizing die wax.
Good lighting.
If in doubt, stop!
Reject all suspicious ammo - not sure about something then disassemble it!
Use clean brass with clean primer pockets.
Prep brass long before a reloading session. Good activity instead of TV. Seal in plastic bags.


I would suggest a reloading process work session. Go through all your steps and see if they can be improved.
Get new tools and incorporate them in your process long before you want to load for hunting season. I do all my load development in the Spring. I load up a hundred rounds of the intended hunting load and then
take my intended hunting rifle on a varmint hunting trip. I shoot the hunting ammo at various distances
to see exactly how it shoots. If I am satisfied with my hunting ammo I then load up a couple hundred rounds
long before the hunting season. This eliminates last minute reloading sessions and having to settle for
untested ammo for hunting season. If I am going to use a new bullet, I will find a rancher that has diseased
stock, buy it cheap and alive, and arrange to shoot the stock with my new bullet choice. I will shoot the animal in several places and then do an autopsy. After that the front loader takes it to be buried or burned.

I keep complete records and label each loaded box of ammo with the components. If I am loading several thousand rounds for varmint hunting I will label each box/container with a lot number which is in my records.
Extra work, but easy to do with a computer.

I've rambled a bit. If you want specifics let me know.

I full length resize, keep my cases trimmed, and load near max to max loads, wherever the accuracy is...All my keeper guns shoot at least one inch and most loads to the same POI, it took a long time to put them together that would do that, and I traded and sold a lot of guns to get there...

I have tried all that other stuff and it will get you a tiny bit more, but who needs it on a big game rifle.

I just try to load tokeep um in the same hole

Pete,

My experience with my 9.3

Full length size all cases

I weigh all charges to the charge weight which is +/- 0.2gr

I visualy inspect charged cases (very important as most 9.3 loads are compressed so that one cannot shake to verify powder is present)

I carefuly segregate my cases so I am absolutely sure that I am not about to use a 6 times reloaded practice case in my moose hunt. In fact I use new cases for these.

I ensure I use the correct lot# powder, bullet and case.

I get the COL I require measured from the bullet tip averaged over 3 rounds.

I check all rounds will feed.

I check zero a random selection of the newly loaded rounds in the conditions they will be used in (in my case the rounds were transported to the range in cool box - you'll likely want to test the other way round!)

Good luck.

If accuracy is a foot long, then bullet selection is 10 inches of that. Powder selection is an inch and roughly the correct amount is a quarter inch.

Such things in total are the rest: 1/10 of a grain weighing, exact case weights, exact case lengths, primer pocket uniforming, flash hole deburring, runout, loading to lands precisely, and a dozen other things that are meaningless to me.

I try to use short cut powders to improve the accuracy of the powder measure but sitting at the scale with a dribbler is just an exercise in trivia. I dump the loads from a powder measure and go hunting.

A hunting rifle that actually shoots 1.25" groups is totally the equal to the one that shoots 1/2" groups.

There has never been a Kudu that knew the difference between being shot in the left ventricle and the right aorta.

Thanks Gents,

Its interesting to see the different approaches there are to reloading. I must confess untill I am at the bench, I find it a chore, but to some folks here its obviously a hobby in its own right..

Although I understand that you don't need sub 1" groups to hunt deer or plainsgame, I would like to produce ammo that is to able to consistantly produce such groups as then its another factor taken out of the equation.

1894,

I am on the 4th reloading of many of my cases now and one thing that has surprised me is the lack of case stretch..I have not had to trim any at all so far...

regards,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Thanks Gents,

Its interesting to see the different approaches there are to reloading. I must confess untill I am at the bench, I find it a chore, but to some folks here its obviously a hobby in its own right..

Although I understand that you don't need sub 1" groups to hunt deer or plainsgame, I would like to produce ammo that is to able to consistantly produce such groups as then its another factor taken out of the equation.

1894,

I am on the 4th reloading of many of my cases now and one thing that has surprised me is the lack of case stretch..I have not had to trim any at all so far...

regards,

Pete

As a high volume Pasture Poodle Eradicator, I face a stiff challenge...high volume reloading but 1/2 MOA accuracy required. Too tired to talk about it now, but it's an interesting dilemma...back to the reloading bench...

Runout .001"
neck dia variance .0005" or less
case weight 2% or less
powder charge .0gr variance

This is not for everyone,..I am somewhat particular. It's my money, so it better pay off. If I didn't think this made a difference, I would shoot factory rifles for everything.

Runout I try and keep 2 thou or less measured at the shoulder. Anything over that gets a black mark on the primer and I use it for sighting in. I keep track of the black primered ones if they do it again over 2 thou I turn the case necks again to see if I can't bring it right.

Powder 0.0 gr variation.
Cases all trimmed and donuts removed when required.
Case necks all turned
Use a bush 2 thou under
Flash holes all deburred
All cases same batch, same load history
Anneal every 5 loads.

They have to be safe, fit into the gun Iam using them in. Be as accurate as the gun Iam using them in.

quote:

I am curious to what tolerances you try to load your *hunting* ammo?

A I am talking about powder charge weight, COL, run out ect; in fact anything people might measure...I am primarily interested in the medium bores for load's to be used for hunting..

B Also when reloading hunting ammo, how many people keep detailed records and if ,so what do you record..

A: Rifles-Powder charge as exact as individual weighings will get...nearest kernal of powder basically (big stick powders don't meter well enough for my tastes), in my rifles, COL to about .001, and everything else I don't care about enough to work with....
Pistols-within .25 grain powder, .01 OAL, and as long as it feeds&fires, it's good enough.

B: Every round loaded gets powder, OAL, charge, bullet, # loadings for that batch, and any comments as needed. Rifle ammo also gets range accuracy results where appropriate.

For my main hunting calibers I've progressed to using Lee Collet Neck Sizing and Redding Body dies to bump the shoulder back when they get hard to chamber. Very touchy but you can set the body die to only bump the shoulder back .001" - .0015". I like the Lee Collet Neck Sizer because no lube is required and I don't like using the dies with expander balls.

Runout is usually .002" or less and I've stopped chasing it as hard as I used to.

When I use the Lee Collet Neck sizer, I put a washer around the shell on top of the shell holder so part of the case is still expanded to fit the chamber. Feel like this centers the case in the chamber.

After the first firing on a set of cases I use a neck turner set to turn part of the neck outside only.

Use a Stoney Point to set bullet depth but never try to seat closer than .015" to the lands.

Keep a spreadsheet with all the loads with a separate sheet for each rifle where I log date, type of bullet, weight of bullet, type of powder, weight of powder, spread, velocity, energy at 300 yards, and drop at 500 yards (200 yard zero standard). The last 2 are calculated using a ballistics program.

Don't think I've gained more than 1/4" from when I first started throwing them together but still trying.

You guys will outgrow most of that stuff like weighing powder charges, runout, plus or minus a tenth of a grain, neck reaming, seperating cases by weight, etc. unless your a benchrester...In time it just won't make a damn...

I trim and full length resize, drop a load of bulk powder, stick a bullet in the case and go shoot some buffalo...And my guns shoot an inch so who wants the worry, after years of doing it both ways it dawned on me a rifle will shoot or it won't, ask any benchrester, they don't do a lot of what you are talking about surprisingly, but they will toss about 20 to 40 barrels before they settle on one..but to each his own, some folks enjoy all the tedius stuff, I did at one time.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
You guys will outgrow most of that stuff like weighing powder charges, runout, plus or minus a tenth of a grain, neck reaming, seperating cases by weight, etc. unless your a benchrester...In time it just won't make a damn...

I trim and full length resize, drop a load of bulk powder, stick a bullet in the case and go shoot some buffalo...And my guns shoot an inch so who wants the worry, after years of doing it both ways it dawned on me a rifle will shoot or it won't, ask any benchrester, they don't do a lot of what you are talking about surprisingly, but they will toss about 20 to 40 barrels before they settle on one..but to each his own, some folks enjoy all the tedius stuff, I did at one time.

Well said Ray.....That's my kind of ammo.....

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

A hunting rifle that actually shoots 1.25" groups is totally the equal to the one that shoots 1/2" groups.

Huh? You lost me.

quote:

Originally posted by douglast:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

A hunting rifle that actually shoots 1.25" groups is totally the equal to the one that shoots 1/2" groups.

Huh? You lost me.

I'll rephrase it...ok?

Once the rifle shoots an adequate group to satisfy the requirements of the hunt, further improvements in group size are of no value.

I say this because there's no way to utilize the extra accuracy when afield.....we just don't have a padded shooting bench there from which to shoot. Further it does no good to aim for the left ventricle when one really wants to hit the heart.

I'm not talking about varmint guns here and if one wants his .300 magnum, to shoot a few prairie dogs while hunting mule deer we have a different situation.

Or let me ask this...would you rather your .300 mag shoot 180 grain Partitions to 1.25" groups when hunting elk or would you prefer your gun to shoot 180 grain A-Max to 1/2"?

My point is that accuracy isn't everything and can even be detremental. There's many things of greater importance and in my experience I never found that most of the finess items of reloading got me any return on the time invested. In short, once we attain the (IMO)1.25" groups we reach diminishing returns quickly of time invested in better accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by douglast:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

A hunting rifle that actually shoots 1.25" groups is totally the equal to the one that shoots 1/2" groups.

Huh? You lost me.

I'll rephrase it...ok?

Once the rifle shoots an adequate group to satisfy the requirements of the hunt, further improvements in group size are of no value.

I say this because there's no way to utilize the extra accuracy when afield.....we just don't have a padded shooting bench there from which to shoot. Further it does no good to aim for the left ventricle when one really wants to hit the heart.

I'm not talking about varmint guns here and if one wants his .300 magnum, to shoot a few prairie dogs while hunting mule deer we have a different situation.

Or let me ask this...would you rather your .300 mag shoot 180 grain Partitions to 1.25" groups when hunting elk or would you prefer your gun to shoot 180 grain A-Max to 1/2"?

My point is that accuracy isn't everything and can even be detremental. There's many things of greater importance and in my experience I never found that most of the finess items of reloading got me any return on the time invested. In short, once we attain the (IMO)1.25" groups we reach diminishing returns quickly of time invested in better accuracy.

I now understand what you are saying. If I could guarantee a reduction in groups from 1.25" to 1/2" just by "tightening" tolerances on OAL, run out, charge, etc, it would be great. I have not been able to realize that level of improvement with a hunting rifle.

If every shot I expected to take was 200 yds or less, I agree the added accuracy is not terribly important. If I wanted to deliver at longer distances, I would take the hunting rifle shooting 1/2" groups over 1.25" groups any day (I wouldn't trade the accuracy for the bullet change you mentioned however). I guess it gets to be sort of a philosophical argument at some point though.

Doug