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Your advice re keeping pressure under control with a short OAL?
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I would appreciate any advice you experts can offer on this puzzling question. I have a Winchester model 70 which has been rebarreled and chambered for the 338-06 Ackley Improved. It has a short throat. In fact, its throat is so short that I am forced to seat the bullet so that the cartridge overall length is a full 1/10" (0.100") shorter than the "standard" 3.340" OAL. (An OAL of 3.240" leaves the bullet just about 0.010" short of the lands.) However, with any given load this short OAL is no doubt generating higher peak pressure -- maybe MUCH higher pressure -- than in cartridges made with the standard 3.340" OAL. I can tell that pressures are in fact higher, just as one would expect, because the primers on fired rounds are always pretty flat several grains below the charge that the published data lists as maximum. (The published data almost always assumes a 3.340" OAL.) Naturally, this means that I should not assume that the maximum loads shown in the published data will necessarily be safe in my rifle. However, here is my problem: how can I tell what loads are safe in this rifle, when I am working up loads? I can't use the published data as a guide, because the published data was generated using a 3.340" OAL. I can watch carefully for the traditional pressure signs; but I am constantly reading that the traditional pressure signs are not reliable because it is difficult to interpret some of them (e.g., flattened primers), and because by the time the other ones appear you are already way above safe pressure levels. Many writers on the subject also say that measuring case head expansion is unreliable because it is not possible to measure case head expansion accurately enough in a repeatable fashion, and because some types of cases do not expand measurably until pressures are far above safe levels. Faced with these difficulties, most reloaders no doubt just fall back on the published data; but I do not have that option, because the published data does not apply to my rifle.

Do you have any ideas about what I should do, in order to know where I am while I am working up loads? (Other than have the rifle rechambered.)
 
Posts: 189 | Location: San Jose, CA | Registered: 02 January 2003Reply With Quote
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You don't need a rechamber, just have your local gunsmith re-cut the throat a little deeper. They make a throating reamer just for this job.
 
Posts: 2124 | Location: Whittemore, MI, USA | Registered: 07 March 2002Reply With Quote
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I think Tailgunner's suggestion is a good one... just touch up the machine work so that you can use conventional data. If you don't want to do that:

Different bullets will allow different COL with the same rifle. I kinda "squinch" a fired case until a bullet will just roughly slide in and out. Then I put a dab of "crazy glue" inside the neck (NOT on the bullet!!), chamber the combination, and wait a minute. Using this method, I've found that in one rifle, I can make Speer loads .100" longer than Hornady. It's just the difference in the bullet shape. So you might pick up some operating room that way.

The smaller case capacity will tend to give you more pressure for the same amount of powder. So one way to look at it is that you can usually get practically the same MV for a little less powder. Use a chronograph to see if you're approaching max MV. If you're getting the "book" MV, or even 50-75 fps less, you're at max pressure.

Finally, you can buy a strain gauge system. They are about the same price as a mid-quality scope. I mount my gauges under the forestock, out of sight, so they do not disfigure the gun at all.

You're right about conventional pressure signs being unreliable. Based on some work Ackley did, I estimate that if you run your charge up until primers fall out, then back down a grain or two, you're probably running at about 74,000 to 76,000 PSI. I'm not nearly that brave.
 
Posts: 2281 | Location: Layton, UT USA | Registered: 09 February 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by BigBrass:
...Many writers on the subject also say that measuring case head expansion is unreliable because it is not possible to measure case head expansion accurately enough in a repeatable fashion, and because some types of cases do not expand measurably until pressures are far above safe levels. ...

Hey BigBrass, Just read an interesting 6Feb58 letter from Vernon Speer to P.O. Ackley in Ackley's "Handbook(Vol. 1) For Shooters & Reloaders" a day or so ago. Back then Speer established all their Load Data by watching for any measurable expansion on the Rim and then reducing the Load 6%. He mentioned using "sensitive measuring instruments" which I interpret to mean 0.0001" capable Micrometers. And he also mentioned watching for all the other traditional Pressure Signs, which you mentioned you are doing.

A direct quote, "...as long as the brass cartridge case is worked within the elastic range of the brass, then the pressure in pounds per square inch, regardless of what it might be, is safe and practical for use in that particular cartridge." Here he was comparing the different Case manufacturers "hardness" and that some have an elastic range higher than other brands, in modern firearms.

Since then, a lot of Loads have been developed for the Speer Manuals using that method in addition to Case Head Expansion(CHE) and Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE).

The thing that is so nice about these methods is they automatically compensate for variations in the Bore condition and individual Cartridge components.

As has been said many times on this Board, Strain Gauges can't be Calibrated outside a Lab. Dosen't make them totally useless, but it does make the value of their information dubious at best.

Then when a person looks at Velocity as a type of Pressure indicator, that person is "assuming" the Bore and Cartridge components are exactly like the ones used to develop the Load at the Powder or Bullet Manufacturers. This is a difficult concept for some folks to grasp, but the two firearms and components aren't the same. Therefore, the velocity may be low, right on or too high for the actual Pressure developed in a specific Load

Which brings you back to First Hand Information taken directly from the Case. It has always worked and will continue to work in the future.

...

Here is what I'd recommend. Since you already have the rifle, unless you can locate some A-Square 338-06 factory ammo, you are limited to CHE and the Rim Expansion that Mr. Speer mentioned. Then pick a couple of cases, load them at a Load you feel is SAFE. Watch for the Expansion while you shoot and reload with a specific Load in those same cases for 10 shots. If the Primer Pockets become "loose" during that time, start over with a couple more cases and reduce the Load a bit. If they don't become loose, increase the Load a bit and try the test again. It will take awhile, but that is one of the benefits of a semi-wildcat and a custom barrel/chamber.

Does anyone else make factory ammo for the 338-06? If you can get some factory ammo, you can easily use PRE to reach a SAFE MAX Load.

So BigBrass, if you want any help concerning CHE/PRE, let me know. Best of luck to you.

...

For the group that wants to argue with me everytime I post about CHE and PRE. Your inability to grasp the very best Pressure Indication methods available have grown wearysome. I'm just not interested in arguing with you again.
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Tailgunners suggestion seems the right way to go unless you're handicapped by a short magazine.
Your problem would be solved if you could buy or swage 2 diameter bullets. This may sound flacky but some years ago someone was playing with these. Maybe they're still around. I don't know but someone may. [Confused]
 
Posts: 10226 | Location: Temple City CA | Registered: 29 April 2003Reply With Quote
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Gentlemen: Thank you for your comments; they are most helpful.
 
Posts: 189 | Location: San Jose, CA | Registered: 02 January 2003Reply With Quote
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