Hi, all -

I took a try at some light target loads for .45 Colt yesterday, and the results are utterly dismal. Not only were they all over the map, but the weak pattern that they did display was hugely off the pattern shot by some harder factory loads. Here are the specifics:

- gun: Ruger SRH Alaskan (2" barrel)
- cartridges: Magtech .45 Colt
- bullets: Bear Creek 230-gr round nose
- powder: Unique, 7.0 grains
- primer: Winchester

My first thought is that I have to put in more powder, but before I do this, I thought I'd run it by the experts here. Any suggestions?

Hey mzimmers, DO NOT TELL ANYONE THIS SECRET!

You really have to "Develop a Load" for it to be accurate - revolver, pistol or rifle.

Randomly picked Loads from a Manual result in Random Accuracy.

There is a group of folks that really believe there are Loads that will work with great Accuracy in any firearm chambered for that Cartridge. You might see them refered to as "Optimum Charge Weight(OCW)" Loads or Universal Loads. But, the dynamics of the Firing Sequence combined with all the variables in the Cartridge, Chamber and Bore preclude that from being reality.

OCW is full of beans!

Thanks for the response. I was expecting that someone would tell me "that powder with THAT gun?! You MORON" or something equally constructive.

Seriously, I really think something's amiss here. I'm not kidding when I said these things were all over the place. From 25 yards, my first shot didn't even hit paper. My 3-shot "patterns" were like 6" apart, and when I used factory loads (which admittedly were on the other end of the spectrum, both in bullet weight and hotness), they were flying like 12" away from where the light stuff was hitting. Oh, and this was from a RESTING position, and with a gun that is known to be able to do better than this. Like I said, something is amiss here...

I think I posted elsewhere about suggested target loads for .45 Colt, but I can't find it. While I'm here, does anyone have a good formula for this? I've got a bunch of 230 grain bullets I'll need to use up, but I'm wide-open on alternative powders...

mzimmers, Your problem may not be with the load, but with the cast bullets you're using and how well they fit the cylinder throats, forcing cone and bbl. You'll need to first oil the bbl. very well and then push a cast bullet through it from muzzle to forcing cone. Try to push one into the forcing cone as well. (Mount the gun in a padded vise, insert a well-oiled cast bullet and use a brass bar that you strike with a hammer to force it in. A dowel inserted from the muzzle can be used to dislodge it.) Next, oil the cylinder throats and then try to force a cast bullet through each of them. If they go through with little or no resistance, you may have discovered the problem: the bullet doesn't fit the gun. Measure all 8 bullets with a micrometer. Those from the cylinder throats should be at least .001" larger than the remaining 2. If they're not, you'll need a bigger and/or less hard bullet, which will expand or obturate to fit the bore better when fired. Btw, it's not uncommon for commercial cast bullets to be too hard (higher BHN) and too small (diameter) to fit all guns optimally.

It may also be the case that the cylinder throats of your Ruger are not what they should be. If so, you should contact Ruger or have someone like Cylindersmith.com ream them to the correct dimension. Hope this helps!

I worked on a load for a 45Colt for a guy that is a very good shot.

We tried allot of loads.

We wound up with 300 gr cast and 6 gr of Unique.

In .223, the worst load and the best load are not that different, but in 45Colt, there is a big difference.

Bet your .223 doesn't have a 2" barrel either...

My experience with MY Ruger was that heavier charges were needed to obturate the cast bullets to find the grooves and really stabilize them. For me it was 8.5 grains of unique (I also tried 9 and 10 grains, but couldn't manage that load for long.
I actually prefer shooting my Vaquero with black.
Frank

For a light load, my Ruger likes the 200gr SWC bullets for .45acp target loads. I use 4-4.5 grains of any of the fast pistol/shotgun powders, i.e., Red Dot, 700x, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by mzimmers:
Thanks for the response. I was expecting that someone would tell me "that powder with THAT gun?! You MORON" or something equally constructive. ...

Hey mzimmers, That rarely happens on this Board, but when needed it can and does happen.

Looks like you are getting a lot of excellent recommendations above.

I will offer a suggestion that Revolvers and Pistols are perhaps 10x-100x more difficult to become proficient with than a rifle.

If you have a 22Rimfire Revolver, I'd recommend you find a Load it likes(at 15yds) and shoot a couple of hundred through it as often as possible. I "used to be" fairly accurate with a pistol or revolver, but I know for sure it would take 3-months for me to re-train myself so as not to be embarrassed in public - and I have Developed Loads.

Hang in there with the task. The more you mess with it, the better it will get.

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I hope that in describing my difficulties, I didn't give anyone the impression that I was trying to exclude my firing proficiency from the equation; I certainly know better than that.

But with Cor-bon .454 loads that were arguably 8X hotter than these target loads I made, I was getting much better results; that's why I was pretty sure it wasn't me causing the massive inaccuracy I was experiencing.

Tomorrow I'm going to try fitting the bullets through various gun parts and see what happens with that. A friend of mine also worked up a series of progressively hotter loads to test with. We'll see what happens with them, though from what some people have said here, it might have been better to go in the other direction.

Anyway, I will indeed keep at it and shall report back when I have something worthwhile. Thanks again...

quote:

Hey mzimmers, That rarely happens on this Board, but when needed it can and does happen. Wink

Really???...I didn't know that!!!

I've rarely known one to get blasted for asking a question or stating his experience or opinion....but when one comes out and states Bullshit and proposes it to be truth or gospel .....well....then it's been known to happen.

OK...here's a little more information: I pushed a bullet from the muzzle through the forcing cone. I then pushed another from the forcing cone as far as I could down the barrel; this only went about 1" beyond the rim of the cone. Both of these exercises required driving the bullet with a wooden dowel. While this didn't take really hard hammering, it did take more than "love taps."

The cylinder throats were another story -- the bullets dropped through them with no problem at all. I had no other uncased bullets to compare, but I did try to drop 4 different sizes (from 250 to 335 grains) of Cor-bon cartridges through the throats. All 4 bullets dropped through until the case hit the throat, then they stopped. I tentatively conclude that bullets are probably supposed to drop through the throats without hanging up.

Here's a picture of the two that we pushed into the barrel:



The bullet on the right is the one that entered the muzzle. If I were a better photographer, you could see that the bullet shows three lands and two grooves. The lands are all rubbed bright, as is the groove on the left. The groove on the right is unrubbed. Just about half of the groove-touching surfaces was rubbed, and the other half was untouched.

Measurements:

fresh bullet: .4520
groove to groove: .4510
land to land: .4425

I didn't measure the bullet that entered the forcing cone, but it was unrubbed.

Well, that's all I know for now. Any additional input? Tomorrow, I'm going to the range with bullets loaded from 7.5 to 10.0 grains of Unique. My technical advisor thinks that one of these loads will probably "pull in." Any predictions?

Thanks...

I haven't played with a Ruger in .45 LC for a while, but the bullet being loose in the cylinders is not good, but I believe you still use the groove diameter to measure by. Maybe some more recent sixgunners can answer on this. I always shot 250 SWC cast hard with 8.5-10 grains of Unique for an everyday load. The 10 grain load was about 950 fps if my memory serves me right.

OK...what am I missing here? Am I to understand that bullets should bind a little in the cylinder? And by extension, that cartridges should also?

Aren't the chambers in a cylinder perfectly cylindrical? Or is there a slight taper from rear to front?

I had a similar problem with a .454 SRH shooting all over, I had the cylinder throats reamed to .453 and all the problems went away the gun now shoots very well, in fact was able to shoot a 5 shot clover-leaf at 50 yards (from a rest) with 310 gr cast bullets.
Mike

I'm missing somthing; how will reaming improve a loose throat?. It wouls seem either soft lead, or heavier loading will be required.
Good Luck!

"I'm missing somthing; how will reaming improve a loose throat?. It wouls seem either soft lead, or heavier loading will be required."



Reaming loose cylinder throats won't do anything to help it. My .45 Blackhawk had cylinder throats that miked from .447 to .450 before I reamed them to .452 (this on 2 different cylinders, both needed reamed). Groups went from 8" at 25 yds to 2". If you can push a bullet through the cylinder throat with finger pressure they do not need to be opened up. Sounds like you may need to try some .454" diameter bullets, pick up a box of a Laser Cast 255 gr .454 bullets and load them over 8 grs Unique. 16.0 - 18.5 gr of #2400 has also been a good load for me with that bullet.

The throats should be .0005" to .001" larger then the bore. The bullets should be a snug fit in the throats, forget the bore for this. You should be able to push a bullet through the throats with your finger, not just drop it through.
If you measure the bore and the throats and the throats are smaller, they need reamed.

Adrook, if the bullets are way too undersize and push through throats that are already too small for the bore, you will get nothing!
Everything has to be measured.

quote:

Adrook, if the bullets are way too undersize and push through throats that are already too small for the bore, you will get nothing!
Everything has to be measured.

That's true. But he stated that his bullets mike at .452 so if he can push one through the cylinder with finger pressure his throats are most likely okay.

quote:

Originally posted by mzimmers:
Aren't the chambers in a cylinder perfectly cylindrical? Or is there a slight taper from rear to front?

Oh, like DUH.

Thanks to everyone who was gracious enough not to jump all over what is almost certainly my stupidest post of the year.

In other news, I went to the range today with loads ranging from 7.5 to 10.0 grains. I haven't analyzed the results, but the early indication is that more powder is grouping closer than less powder. I'll look into the Laser Cast stuff as well, though I have a bunch of this .45 to use up first. More as it happens...