I have never quite understood that slow burn versus fast burn versus heavy wght for caliber verse medium for wght for caliber versus case capacity thing...

I hear guys post a lot "well in XYZ cartridge with ABC weight bullet, I would think you want a faster burning powder to get that kind a velocity" or "with that bullet weight you would want a slower burning powder..."

What is the rule of thumb to achieve good velocity

Well, here is my understanding. A slower burning powder will give the highest velocity because it lengthens the pressure curve. However if you are at case capacity and have not reached maximum pressure, then a faster burning powder will give higher velocity. Highest velocity requires the highest pressure you can exert for the longest time.

You need to add number 14 to your list and leave it blank.

Nah..13 is a lucky number...

"FASTER" and "SLOWER" are relative terms...relative to WAY to many things.

Heavier bullets have more mass and physics tells us it take a certain amount of work(F=MA) the transfer of energy by a force through distance, to get mass moving...the "heavier" the mass the longer it takes to get it moving, the more "work" involved...relatively speaking as we are talking milliseconds here...so a "slower" powder takes a few more milliseconds to burn, creating the gas pressure that starts moving the bullet...once the bullet gets moving it takes less pressure to keep it going.

Newtons laws are crawling all over your simple question...inertia, mass, work, F=MA, acceleration, momentum...all those goodies.

Top fully understand what all you don't understand, YOU need to start understanding by surfing the net and digging up all that physics stuff, look at the burn rate tables, compare ballistics and do some homework...what you are asking is a BIG bucket of worms looking for a place to get dumped out...it is simple but complicated because of all the factors and parameters that are involved and the fact that NOTHING in this sport is cast in stone or really simple at all.

Wikipedia is a good place to start, and of course all the ballistics tables you can get you hands on. Shouldn't take you too long to get a good handle on it.
Heavy bullets work best with slower burning powders(develope higher velocities at lower pressures)...light bullets with faster burning powders(same thing)...relative to caliber, case, how you hold you mouth and squint through your sights.

Or not...

Luck

FOOBAR,

Thanks you answered my basic question...

In general, slower powders with heavier bullets and faster powders with lighter bullets.

You forgot to mention that different powders
require dsifferent shoulder angles.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
FOOBAR,

Thanks you answered my basic question...

In general, slower powders with heavier bullets and faster powders with lighter bullets.

Yes. Also the more "overbore" (for lack of a better term) a cartridge is the slower you want the powder to be. Which is why something like a 358 win even with heavy bullets still functions well with medium powders.

Understanding it is fairly simple if you begin use something like 4350 and an 06 as a general starting point, then as you proceed into magnum territory you begin to see slower powders used and vice-versa down into the lesser case capacities. I suppose there could be some sort of "bore to case capacity ratio" to help simplify things. but someone smarter than I would have to concoct it..

Well...no I didn't forget these last presented posts and you are both right to a certain degree and add your excellent insights to the "collective"...therein lies the conundrums...WAY too much information to present so subjects are NEVE fully covered...no one can cover it all AND it is up to the individual to do their OWN homework.

I NEVER LIKED MANTRAS...of any kind.

When I started this game back in the late 50's, that mantra was just about the first thing I was told.

In those days information and components were is short supply...no internet, few reloading manuals, LOTS of dis and mis information coming out of the gun rags. I took me several years of gathering data to find out that mantra was just like ALL compromises...not worth a sh** for either end.

If you think about a 17 cal where a "heavy" bullet is 30 gr and a "light" bullet is 20 gr and a "slow" powder might be only one or two levels of differenct between a "fast" powder...the comment about "relativity" should be poignant.

The same goes for the large 375 and above(ROUGHLY SPEAKING) where a "light" bullet is 250-300 gr and a "heavy" bullet is 300-600 gr or there abouts.

Get a brain phart and/or mind lock around some age old mantra and you have just hamstrung yourself.

As to "slow" and "fast" powders...some of the large straight walled cases shoot MUCH better with powders that are considered "fast" in comparison to bullet weight than with the "slower" powders...and again the difference might only be a couple of steps on the burn rate charts.

Powders overlap...today we have over 144 to choose from...back in the olden days I only had maybe 10 at the most to cover from 22 to 375 cal. H4831 and H870 were about the slowest, now we have H1000, RL25, Retumbo, 50BMG, US869. The same at the "fastest" end of the spectrum.

As I said...all those terms are relative which means you need to address an individual cartridge BY ITSELF, when mumbling the "MANTRA".

The only way to understand this is to study reloading books and get a handle on the simple physics...and FORGET that mantra...it ISN'T actually that simple, but it is "relatively" simple.

Luck

Mike, here are the basic rules, in no particular order:

The larger the case, more "overbore" (or more bottlenecked) the case, the heavier the bullet, and longer the barrel, the slower the powder.

The powder's burn rate is dependent on the case capacity.....the bullet diameter, the pressure one is allowed to create per SAAMI specs and the bullet weight.

It is NOT related to barrel length!

VD, a longer barrel will favor a slower powder. Since you will have more time, hence more time under curve, you can get more benefit out of a slower powder. Often times, with a short barrel and a slow for caliber powder, you can reach a point no additional return, where adding powder does not add velocity. However with a longer barrel, adding powder will continue to add velocity. Consequently there are times you can use a slower powder with a longer barrel.

There is no value in changing powders because of barrel length....the load that produces the best velocity in a 26" barrel will also produce the best velocity in a shorter barrel.....say 20"

There might be a factor in a much shorter barrel.....something like 12" and less however...

The idea of faster powders in a shorter barrel is simply an old wives tale....it doesn't bear out!

quote:

The idea of faster powders in a shorter barrel is simply an old wives tale....it doesn't bear out!

I never listen to my wife when it comes to reloading.
It's something I discovered with a chronograph.

Well...actually you both are right and wrong at the same time and/or/but comparing tree apples to road apples.

Whether or not it is "proven" depends a lot on the caliber AND case.

There are many powders that are designed to burn or produce their maxinum gas production in a specific range of barrel lengths with specific cases, while others will continue to produce velocity mainly due to the powder burning and continuing to produce an expanding gas over a longer time. THAT has been proven time after time.

As long as the gas is expanding it is pushing on the bullet as well as everything else inside the barrel and only stop when the bullet exits.

The fact that burn rates overlap and certain powders can be used in a wide range of applications, while other powders have a very specific set of use parameters should give the astute a clue.

You want to argue specifics, then use specific applications and examples...then it might be of use rather than willywaving.

Old wives were known to have a bit of knowledge that younger wives haven't lived long enough to acquire, and maybe learned from a different set of circumstances...don't be dissing old ladies...it isn't nice to mess with Mother Nature.

Luck

FooBar -

Am glad to see you posting here on AR. You obviously have a firm grasp of the ins and outs of pressures, capacities, powders, their relationships etc. in handloading and in actual use....the "Zen" of handloading so to speak.

quote:

VD, a longer barrel will favor a slower powder. Since you will have more time, hence more time under curve,

No so. Peak chamber pressure occurs after just 2-4 inches of bullet travel, after that the time vs. pressure curve remains the same no matter the barrel length. Meaning, whatever powder and charge gives the highest safe speed in a specific 26 inch barrel will still give the highest safe speed to the same bullet if the barrel is cut back to 10 inches.

Jim C. wrote:

quote:

whatever powder and charge gives the highest safe speed in a specific 26 inch barrel will still give the highest safe speed to the same bullet if the barrel is cut back to 10 inches.

1st. What does the term "highest safe speed"mean?

2nd. Are you saying that for a given projectile, case, powder type (mfr. and product designation), and powder load that the muzzle velocity for a 24" barrel will be the same as for a 10" barrel? But max velocity is a function of force, mass, acceleration and time.
If the pressure peaked in approx. 6", wouldn't the extra 14" of barrel (and correspondingly longer time IN the barrel being accelerated) yield a higher muzzle velocity?

Please do not think I am in any wise being argumentative. I really do desire to learn.

Thank you,

Here is a relativly simple assesment from a relativly simple reloader.

I can "generaly" use similar powders with a 100 grain bullet from a 257 Roberts that I can with a 30-06 with a 180 grain bullet and usually be quite pleased with the efficency generated from both. The reason is that in that comparison, the bore to capacity ratio takes precedent over bullet weight.

And likewise, when I load up my 45-70 with a 350 grain slug, it will be happier with a faster powder than either of the affore-mentioned examples in spite of its much larger projectile..

Now if I go to a 450 gn slug in the 45-70, THEN the slower burn for a bigger bullet comes into play, but on a smaller scale.


Just a few simple thoughts from a simple man to encourage promoting a better general understanding..

Here's a real simple experiment.

Set up quickload.
.308 win.
150gr NBT
16" barrel.
61000 PSI.

The powder that yields the highest velocity is IMR3031

Change the barrel length to 26", and 12 slower burning powders produce higher velocities.

Wellllll....I wouldn't go that far A.C...60 odd years of experience and a modicum of of "other world" knowledge helps...but mostly a ton of "empirical" experience...hands on, that is...

Making mistakes can be a very powerful teacher...and even when things go as planned, that derived information is only good for the specific rifle/bullet/component combination...

Bill M. Physics tell us that once you hit the highest point of acceleration that the object will continue at that speed forever unless acted upon by another force, be it gravity or friction.

Once you hit peak pressure, that point being related to powder burn rate as Jim C points out, but you have to understand just HOW that curve works or is pictured to understand what he means and there is where things get messed up in peoples minds. There is only one way to go and that is down(slower) because of bullet friction against the barrel is slowing down the bullet AND the pressure is being reduced continually as the area of the bore is INCREASING as the bullet moves down it...the bullet CAN'T and DOESN'T continue to accellerate, except under some kind of force acting on it...gas expansion is the force.

As I said the bullet can only continue to accellerate if powder continues to burn and produce gas expansion OR the gas continues to expand and keeps increasing pressure on the bullet...no different than blowing up a balloon or a rocket...as soon as the fire goes out or you stop blowing, the rocket starts slowing down due to friction of the air and gravity trying to drag it back or the balloon stops expanding, not withstanding the action of momentum or atmospheric barometric changes.

Gas DOES continue to expand in many applications, due to many additional factors like powder burn rate, ratio of powder to case volume and that ratio to bore volume, "expansion ratio", so the bullet does continue to accellerate through gas expansion so it seems to be what always is happening, but it is also being slowed down by friction and reduction of gas pressure as the gas expands to fill the bore as the bullet "uncovers" more "area under the curve" at the SAME TIME, but that is an artifact and not an across the board action...a "misunderstanding" of all the actions that are occuring.

I think that many of the arguments about what is and what isn't...happens because of not understanding the basic properties of physics as related to ballistics, and reading something that sounds plausible even if it isn't correct.

Reducing the complexity of what is happening down to a simple physics problem of expanding gas and friction might help to visualize what is actually going on. Way too much mis-information has been scattered all over the net and in magazines so confusion reigns.

The data might be transferable all across the board, then again in might not...so generalities, which are rampant on the net,
can be useful or get your ....'s sweezed in a vise...and the use of all the software programs have been proven many times over as frought with dangers and unreliable information, yet they are constantly used as "proof" for proving a point. But this is the computer age and the computer is KING... and UNQUESTIONED.

I learned...on my own nickel...with lots of help from the early experimenters...to question EVERYTHING, and not take ANYTHING for granted and develop my own data even if I used someone else's as a basis to start from.

All I can say is keep an open mind, don't take YOUR data or ANYONE else's data as right OR wrong as what seems right/wrong today is proven totally wrong/right tomorrow...history proves that day after day.

I have two 7-08 shooters...a 15" XP-100 and a 26" switch barrel Ruger. I use the SAME exact load in each...one is ~400 fs faster, they BOTH put 3 rounds into a nice little triange all touching. I use a Hornady 120gr VM, Varget powder, FMGM primers, Lapua brass, the same reloading dies and COAL. I MIGHT gain a bit more velocity by going to different powders, but going to a faster burning powder most likely will increase the pressure as increased pressure is one way to increase velocity...I could optimize a load for each barrel length and maybe gain velocity or accuracy or maybe not.

Varget seems to work just fine in these two barrel lengths with the 120 gr bullet and the accuracy is excellent so why bother wasting components trying to gain a few fs? Proving a point is even more of a lesser value, and increased velocity doesn't always mean increased accuracy.

This works for me, but it you are driven to gain that "highest possible velocity" load then by all means do so, I see no reason not to...that's what load developement is ALL ABOUT... and that is basically what I do for individual rifles...maximize as many parameters as I can to "optimize" the load, but which doesn't necessarily mean getting the highest velocity I possibly can.

Luck

I try to look at this whole subject as simply as possible.

First, - The bullet WILL continue to accelerate as long as the gas pressure behind it is greater than the forces (mainly friction and air resistance) tending to slow it down.

Second - With slower burning powders, one can burn more powder and thereby create more expanding gas (and a longer period of gas pressure sufficient to accelerate the bullet).

Third, The maximum gas pressure or where it is reached is important only to the point that it is not so high as to destroy a surface of the pressure vessel somewhere that it may be weak.

Fourth - It is the height of the "average" gas pressure while the bullet is in the barrel, together with how long that pressure is maintained, that ultimately determines bullet velocity.

Fifth - Unless your powder is detonating instead of deflagrating, it takes longer to burn more powder than it does to burn less powder. That is why slower burning powders allow us to burn more powder. By burning slower, the combustion chamber has time to enlarge more (as the bullet moves forward during the burn), thus delaying the point at which maximum allowable pressure is reached...and in the meantime, yet more powder has been burned and more gas has been created to help keep pressures above the minimum needed to continue accelerating the bullet.

Sixth - Slower burning powder of just the right burn rate may actually maintain maximum pressure a substantially longer time than does fast burning powder....that's why oscilliscope displays of pressures show faster burning powders to have very sharp pressure peaks, and slow burning powders to have more rounded pressure peaks.

Seventh - Producing more expanding gases by burning more powder means there is more gas which will be trying to get out of the combustion shamber, from the start of the burn until the pressure has fallen to whatever the atmospheric pressure outside the barrel is.

The easiest way out for the gas is to follow on and continue to accelerate the bullet...the bullet is the only movable wall of the chamber...which is what it does.

It's really an easy concept.

Burn more powder more slowly, and get more gas pushing against the bullet base for a longer period of time. That delivers more bullet acceleration and barrel-exit velocity. It IS rocket science of a sort, but then rocket science isn't like trying to describe the workings of the human brain. Rocket science is relatively simple stuff.

"1st. What does the term "highest safe speed"mean?"

Don't quite know how to deal with that but velocity is a function of the average pressure. If we exceed the safe obtainable speed for any combination of barrel, cartridge, bullet, powder, etc, the pressure would clearly exceed the safe limit, would it not?


"Are you saying that for a given projectile,... the muzzle velocity for a 24" barrel will be the same as for a 10" barrel?"

No, obviously not. What I said was the powder and charge that gives the highest safe speed in 26" barrel will still do so if the same barrel is cut to 10", 16", 20", etc. Meaning the length of the barrel does not modify the time/pressure curve. ??

Thanks for all the illuminating replies.

Jim, so then, if I understand what you and the others wrote, "highest safe speed" is the greatest safe Muzzle Velocity (or as an engineer might refer to it VsubM) for a given projectile in a given barrel length. Since we cannot (easily) measure the pressure in our rifle barrels, we use what we CAN measure - VsubM - to give us an indirect measure of the pressure in the bbl. Am I in the ballpark here? If so how do I go about calculating VsubMaxSafe?

Oh, and the whole fast powder/slow powder makes perfect sense.

One other question. For the same brass, powder type and load and projectile, is the relationship between barrel length and VsubM at all linear? If I have a quality factory cartridge and know that the listed VsubM was measured with a 24" barrel, could I then reasonably expect to find that a 16" barrel would yield 2/3rd of the listed VsubM? Would the VsubM for a 20" barrel be anything NEAR 5/6th of the listed VsubM?

I did not really think that a 10" barrel would yield the same VsubM as a 24" barrel with the same cartridge. That was what you seemed (to me) to be saying.

quote:

Originally posted No, obviously not. What I said was the powder and charge that gives the highest safe speed in 26" barrel will still do so if the same barrel is cut to 10", 16", 20", etc. Meaning the length of the barrel does not modify the time/pressure curve. ??

Sorry, but I don't buy that. Gas is often still expanding with more force than required to accelerate the bullet, even at 20" or more down the tube in most "big-game" centerfire rifles. They DO have to still be confined in direct contact with each other in the tube (barrel) for that to happen.

And, in a gun with a 10" barrel, they are clearly NOT still confined in the tube after 20" of travel. Gas often WILL continue to accelerate the bullet for even up to maybe an inch after the bullet and gas leave the muzzle of the barrel, but certainly not measureably for 10" afterward. The pressure curve drops precipitously after the bullet and gas leave the barrel, thus changing the "pressure curve" from what it would be if they were confined in contact together for 20".

That doesn't mean the same powder will for sure not give the highest velocity also from a 10" barrel, but at the same time it doesn't mean rhe pressure under the curve hasn't changed. It has....for one thing the time under the curve is shortened.

Even with .22 RF ammo, the residual gas pressure is still increasing bullet velocity until something like 15"-16" down the barrel, so the bullet doesn't start to slow until something more than 16" down the tube.

To fail to understand that velocity is the equivalent of the area under the curve (integral of time-pressure curve), the only way a faster powder can have a velocity advantage in a shorter barrel is when the curve prior to reaching peak pressure is changed and this happens approximately at 6" or less.

The reason a charge that yields the most velocity in a 26" barrel is because it also delivers the best velocity in a 25" barrel and also a 24" barrel and a 23"......you get the point.

It is not possible to inspect the area under the Time-pressure curve of a 26" length curve using the best velocity powder and then shorten the length of the curve and expect to increase the area under the curve by affecting only the region under the 6" distance.....it's not in the "cards" so to speak.

Jim, VD
Here's a simple computer application of your theory that disagree's with your conclusion:

Cartridge : .308 Win.
Bullet : .308, 150, Nosler BalTip 30150
Useable Case Capaci: 46.998 grain H2O = 3.051 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 10.0 inch = 254.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 59400 psi, or 409 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 120 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

3 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 50%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
IMR 3031 107.0 43.4 2.81 2352 97.2 59400 20701 0.649 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 120.0 51.7 3.35 2336 90.1 57538 21747 0.647 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 98.3 45.8 2.97 2334 93.0 59400 20538 0.645 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 109.5 49.0 3.17 2332 88.9 59400 20791 0.641 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 117.4 50.3 3.26 2331 86.4 59400 20929 0.640 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 117.4 50.3 3.26 2331 86.4 59400 20922 0.640 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 114.1 50.5 3.27 2331 86.4 59400 21074 0.644 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 109.6 49.0 3.18 2331 88.9 59400 20760 0.641 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 105.8 45.8 2.97 2323 89.8 59400 20763 0.652 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 107.4 48.8 3.16 2323 87.4 59400 20678 0.635 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 107.0 43.8 2.84 2323 97.8 59400 20672 0.680 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 100.9 47.7 3.09 2322 91.4 59400 20620 0.651 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 114.7 46.5 3.01 2321 95.4 59400 20885 0.676 ! Near Maximum !
Nitrochemie A/S 0300 90.3 40.1 2.60 2319 98.9 59400 19485 0.654 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 109.1 47.8 3.10 2319 90.9 59400 20695 0.657 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 103.7 46.3 3.00 2317 94.0 59400 20375 0.660 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 103.7 46.3 3.00 2317 94.0 59400 20375 0.660 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 111.0 50.9 3.30 2317 81.9 59400 20622 0.639 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 111.0 50.9 3.30 2317 81.9 59400 20622 0.639 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 107.1 46.4 3.01 2315 89.7 59400 20503 0.652 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 117.1 52.4 3.39 2315 82.8 59400 20665 0.638 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 111.5 47.8 3.10 2314 90.5 59400 20499 0.657 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 106.5 46.1 2.99 2312 88.9 59400 20435 0.652 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 106.5 46.1 2.99 2312 88.9 59400 20435 0.652 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 106.5 46.1 2.99 2312 88.9 59400 20435 0.652 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 93.0 41.6 2.69 2310 96.5 59400 19474 0.647 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 98.9 41.6 2.69 2310 96.5 59400 19474 0.647 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135 113.3 44.5 2.88 2309 97.6 59400 19433 0.655 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 102.6 44.4 2.88 2307 90.8 59400 20203 0.653 ! Near Maximum !
SF-033 fl 93.3 41.3 2.68 2307 100.0 59400 18855 0.665 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 93.3 44.1 2.86 2306 95.2 59400 19680 0.650 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 108.1 46.1 2.98 2305 89.3 59400 19707 0.638 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 111.1 47.1 3.05 2305 90.4 59400 20211 0.655 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 103.5 44.1 2.86 2304 95.2 59400 19738 0.654 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 10 92.9 43.0 2.79 2302 95.2 59400 19642 0.653 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 508 (PCL223) 92.8 43.1 2.79 2302 95.2 59400 19620 0.653 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 507 99.7 45.1 2.92 2301 92.0 59400 19820 0.650 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 102.8 44.5 2.89 2301 90.0 59400 20046 0.653 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 97.0 45.0 2.92 2301 92.1 59400 19810 0.650 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 105.8 46.3 3.00 2300 94.9 59400 19714 0.652 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator 91.0 42.2 2.74 2298 96.2 59400 19413 0.653 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 103.4 46.3 3.00 2298 89.8 59400 19824 0.648 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S321 97.9 45.6 2.96 2298 92.3 59400 19881 0.655 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 107.5 45.3 2.94 2295 92.0 59400 19822 0.658 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 98.7 43.0 2.79 2295 92.2 59400 19574 0.649 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 107.6 47.6 3.09 2293 86.5 59400 19990 0.653 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 105.7 44.9 2.91 2292 95.7 59400 19143 0.650 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x 96.2 39.3 2.55 2291 99.0 59400 18819 0.661 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S341 101.6 47.4 3.07 2290 89.5 59400 19461 0.646 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 116.5 47.6 3.09 2290 92.4 59400 19391 0.648 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 100.8 43.7 2.83 2289 92.1 59400 19397 0.649 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 516 103.4 47.7 3.09 2288 86.5 59400 19646 0.646 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 98.5 43.5 2.82 2286 96.5 59400 18875 0.649 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 116.6 51.3 3.32 2285 81.5 59400 19625 0.641 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 96.7 44.9 2.91 2284 93.2 59400 19519 0.665 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 96.7 44.9 2.91 2284 93.2 59400 19519 0.665 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 99.5 44.0 2.85 2284 92.1 59400 19597 0.662 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 108.1 45.4 2.94 2282 88.8 59400 19292 0.644 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 108.4 45.4 2.94 2282 88.8 59400 19292 0.644 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 109.4 44.8 2.90 2282 89.2 59400 19260 0.647 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 97.9 41.1 2.66 2280 98.4 59400 18692 0.664 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R901 101.9 41.9 2.72 2280 95.1 59400 19456 0.672 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R902 105.9 44.2 2.87 2279 92.1 59400 19413 0.662 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 94.9 44.1 2.85 2278 93.2 59400 19162 0.661 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.4 94.9 44.1 2.85 2278 93.2 59400 19162 0.661 ! Near Maximum !



Cartridge : .308 Win.
Bullet : .308, 150, Nosler BalTip 30150
Useable Case Capaci: 46.998 grain H2O = 3.051 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 59400 psi, or 409 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 120 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

3 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 50%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Somchem S365 120.0 51.7 3.35 3011 99.6 57538 7270 1.135 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 114.1 50.5 3.27 2998 97.3 59400 7375 1.134 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 117.4 50.3 3.26 2993 97.3 59400 7271 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 117.4 50.3 3.26 2992 97.3 59400 7269 1.130 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 109.5 49.0 3.17 2985 98.5 59400 7105 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 109.6 49.0 3.18 2983 98.5 59400 7094 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 107.4 48.8 3.16 2980 98.1 59400 7192 1.127 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 117.1 52.4 3.39 2979 95.1 59400 7381 1.131 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 111.0 50.9 3.30 2978 94.2 59400 7323 1.133 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 111.0 50.9 3.30 2978 94.2 59400 7323 1.133 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 105.8 45.8 2.97 2975 98.7 59400 7046 1.144 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 107.0 43.4 2.81 2969 100.0 59400 6340 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 100.9 47.7 3.09 2968 99.4 59400 6927 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 98.3 45.8 2.97 2967 99.8 59400 6695 1.137 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 109.1 47.8 3.10 2966 99.3 59400 6913 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 107.1 46.4 3.01 2961 98.7 59400 6953 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 106.5 46.1 2.99 2958 98.2 59400 6966 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 106.5 46.1 2.99 2958 98.2 59400 6966 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 106.5 46.1 2.99 2958 98.2 59400 6966 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 114.7 46.5 3.01 2956 100.0 59400 6523 1.170 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 111.5 47.8 3.10 2955 99.1 59400 6830 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 102.6 44.4 2.88 2945 99.0 59400 6800 1.150 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 103.7 46.3 3.00 2944 100.0 59400 6511 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 103.7 46.3 3.00 2944 100.0 59400 6511 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 111.1 47.1 3.05 2943 99.0 59400 6813 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 107.0 43.8 2.84 2941 100.0 59400 6251 1.176 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 102.8 44.5 2.89 2937 98.6 59400 6800 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 107.6 47.6 3.09 2935 96.9 59400 6936 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 108.1 46.1 2.98 2931 98.4 59400 6690 1.137 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 103.4 46.3 3.00 2929 98.6 59400 6742 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 507 99.7 45.1 2.92 2927 99.4 59400 6613 1.149 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S321 97.9 45.6 2.96 2927 99.6 59400 6643 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 97.0 45.0 2.92 2926 99.5 59400 6600 1.149 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 120.0 49.7 3.22 2926 96.6 53994 7169 1.180 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 NT ~approximation 116.6 51.3 3.32 2925 93.7 59400 6986 1.142 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 516 103.4 47.7 3.09 2921 96.8 59400 6830 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 107.5 45.3 2.94 2920 99.5 59400 6561 1.158 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 105.8 46.3 3.00 2920 100.0 59400 6463 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 93.3 44.1 2.86 2919 100.0 59400 6344 1.149 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 103.5 44.1 2.86 2918 100.0 59400 6332 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 115.8 49.6 3.21 2917 94.5 59400 6936 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 98.7 43.0 2.79 2915 99.5 59400 6521 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 10 92.9 43.0 2.79 2914 100.0 59400 6309 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 508 (PCL223) 92.8 43.1 2.79 2913 100.0 59400 6300 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 119.5 51.5 3.34 2912 90.5 59400 7126 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 114.7 51.3 3.32 2910 90.9 59400 7027 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 118.4 51.3 3.32 2910 90.9 59400 7027 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 118.4 51.3 3.32 2910 90.9 59400 7027 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 98.9 41.6 2.69 2910 100.0 59400 6124 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 93.0 41.6 2.69 2910 100.0 59400 6124 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S341 101.6 47.4 3.07 2910 98.4 59400 6547 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 99.5 44.0 2.85 2906 99.4 59400 6517 1.165 ! Near Maximum !
Nitrochemie A/S 0300 90.3 40.1 2.60 2905 100.0 59400 5898 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 108.1 45.4 2.94 2905 97.9 59400 6647 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 108.4 45.4 2.94 2905 97.9 59400 6647 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 116.5 47.6 3.09 2904 99.6 59400 6425 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 100.8 43.7 2.83 2904 99.4 59400 6443 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 120.0 52.0 3.37 2903 90.6 56964 7191 1.158 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator 91.0 42.2 2.74 2901 100.0 59400 6146 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 109.4 44.8 2.90 2899 98.2 59400 6529 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065 114.1 48.3 3.13 2899 95.9 59400 6760 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135 113.3 44.5 2.88 2898 100.0 59400 5912 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 7 101.3 47.1 3.05 2898 96.7 59400 6652 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 96.7 44.9 2.91 2897 99.8 59400 6320 1.169 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 96.7 44.9 2.91 2897 99.8 59400 6320 1.169 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 120.0 54.2 3.52 2897 90.8 52414 7706 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 116.0 50.0 3.24 2896 93.2 59400 6776 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 118.2 50.1 3.25 2895 93.1 59400 6779 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R902 105.9 44.2 2.87 2895 99.4 59400 6427 1.167 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R901 101.9 41.9 2.72 2889 100.0 59400 6210 1.177 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 105.7 44.9 2.91 2888 100.0 59400 6068 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 120.0 49.8 3.23 2887 96.4 53006 6983 1.191 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 94.9 44.1 2.85 2882 99.7 59400 6211 1.167 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.4 94.9 44.1 2.85 2882 99.7 59400 6211 1.167 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP3 NT ~approximation 110.6 47.6 3.09 2881 95.7 59400 6575 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP7 NT ~approximation 108.1 47.2 3.06 2880 94.3 59400 6629 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 98.5 43.5 2.82 2875 100.0 59400 5971 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 112.0 47.6 3.08 2873 93.3 59400 6687 1.162 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 120.0 52.0 3.37 2873 90.1 55648 7075 1.171 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 108.4 47.6 3.09 2873 93.3 59400 6681 1.162 ! Near Maximum !
SF-033 fl 93.3 41.3 2.68 2871 100.0 59400 5599 1.169 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 119.0 50.8 3.29 2870 89.4 59400 6736 1.149 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP2 NT ~approximation 101.7 43.7 2.83 2868 98.9 59400 6282 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 93.5 41.8 2.71 2867 99.7 59400 6167 1.159 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x 96.2 39.3 2.55 2866 100.0 59400 5740 1.167 ! Near Maximum !


You will notice that with a 10" barrel, IMR 3031 is the top listed powder.
With a 26" barrel S365 and N550 and several other common powders jump ahead of it.

Last time I checked, W748, BL-C2, IMR 4895, W760/H414, Hunter, RL-17, SP 11, BigGame, Norma URP, V N550 and S365 were all slower burning then IMR 3031.

quote:

ou will notice that with a 10" barrel, IMR 3031 is the top listed powder.
With a 26" barrel S365 and N550 and several other common powders jump ahead of it.

Rifle barrels start (legally) at 16" length.....and my posts specifically excluded anything other than that if you bother to read them.

Can you show that there is support for your premise using barrels between 20" and 26"....the most common rifle barrels.

WOW! BUFFER OVERFLOW! BUFFER OVERFLOW!

Way too much data for tyro there, Antelope Sniper. But, why would one - necessarily - desire to load to the max safe pressure? I was looking at the table here: http://www.accuratereloading.com/308win.html
(.308 Win is what my rifle uses) and there appears to be no correlation between increasing VsubM and accuracy. It does seem that the two tightest groups (.163) are from two of the lowest VsubM (2591 & 2636). Why would increasing VsubM DECREASE accuracy?

Also, how are these group sizes measured? If a .308 Win bullet is actually .308" (7.82mm) in diameter, how could 5 bullets produce a group .163" - roughly 1/2 the diameter of the bullets punching the holes??

quote:

The larger the case, more "overbore" (or more bottlenecked) the case, the heavier the bullet, and longer the barrel, the slower the powder.

Vapordog: Read my original post. I gave a general answer to a general question.

Now lets look at your response:

quote:

It is NOT related to barrel length

I don't see the words "Rifle Barrel" in your post.

I chose 10" and 26" because it was specifically mentioned by Jim C:

[QUOTE]No so. Peak chamber pressure occurs after just 2-4 inches of bullet travel, after that the time vs. pressure curve remains the same no matter the barrel length. Meaning, whatever powder and charge gives the highest safe speed in a specific 26 inch barrel will still give the highest safe speed to the same bullet if the barrel is cut back to 10 inches.[\QUOTE]

Actually VD, I first noticed this back in the mid 1980's, back when the "small" chronographs were 8" long, and the internet was still a DOD project, and not yet open to civilain use. We were shooting a series of 3 .270 Winchesters, one each with a 22", 24" and 26" barrel. When shooting H4831 the 22" barrel reached a point (around 59.5gr) where adding additional powder would not result in additional velocity. The 24" would gain velocity up to 60.5 grains, but the 26" would continue to gain all the way up to Elmer Kieths old load of 62gr of H4831. This lead me to apply the theory of diminishing marginal returns for powders vs barrel length. This evidence suggested that slow powders had a point were adding additional powder would not result in additional veloctiy, but this point was related to barrel length. Consequently the 22" rifle could not enjoy the full benefits of the slower powder, and if we wanted to seek additional velocity, it would require a faster powder. It was these specific field observations that lead me to the theory regarding a greater realitive benefit of a slow powder in a longer barrel.

I know there are additional variable that effect the degree that barrel lengths matter. w296 give great realitive performance in an AR with light bullets, up to a length around 20". After that, it quickly trains off, and slower powders take over. On the other hand, with a 240gr bullet in a .44 mag, Little Gun is best. It just doesn't matter, 2" or 26" Little Gun. Of course you will see realitive difference in other powders. AA7 produces higher velocities then AA9 until about 10", where AA9 takes over. Now I don't claim to know all the in and out, and all the break points, but for me, the evidence is pretty convincing. The longer the barrel, the more you will benefit from a slower powder.

Mullens, Quick load is just a computer simulation showing the potential for a given load combination. Just because a particular combination comes out on the top of the list, doesn't suggest it will necessarily be the best for your rifle.

Groups are measured center-to-center. In a target match, you measure the total size of the hole, then subtract the bullet diameter.

I have several rifles that produce their best groups with max, or near max loads. I also have several that don't. I feed each one what it likes.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
There is no value in changing powders because of barrel length....the load that produces the best velocity in a 26" barrel will also produce the best velocity in a shorter barrel.....say 20"

There might be a factor in a much shorter barrel.....something like 12" and less however...

The idea of faster powders in a shorter barrel is simply an old wives tale....it doesn't bear out!

see the bolded print

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
The powder's burn rate is dependent on the case capacity.....the bullet diameter, the pressure one is allowed to create per SAAMI specs and the bullet weight.

It is NOT related to barrel length!

It's also dependent on case shape and more correct then bullet diameter is bore dimensions.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I try to look at this whole subject as simply as possible.

First, - The bullet WILL continue to accelerate as long as the gas pressure behind it is greater than the forces (mainly friction and air resistance) tending to slow it down.******


*****It's really an easy concept.

Burn more powder more slowly, and get more gas pushing against the bullet base for a longer period of time. That delivers more bullet acceleration and barrel-exit velocity. It IS rocket science of a sort, but then rocket science isn't like trying to describe the workings of the human brain. Rocket science is relatively simple stuff.

Clearly and correctly written.
One minor change.
The bullet WILL continue to accelerate as long as the gas pressure behind it TIMES THE AREA OF THE BASE OF THE BULLET is greater than the forces (mainly friction and air resistance) tending to slow it down.*****
roger

VD:
We can run it at 16"

Cartridge : .308 Win.
Bullet : .308, 150, Nosler CT BalSilTip 51150
Useable Case Capaci: 46.998 grain H2O = 3.051 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 16.0 inch = 406.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 59400 psi, or 409 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 115 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

3 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 50%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
IMR 3031 107.0 43.4 2.81 2691 99.9 59400 11742 0.846 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 114.1 50.5 3.27 2688 93.2 59400 12777 0.843 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 109.5 49.0 3.17 2682 95.2 59400 12468 0.840 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 109.6 49.0 3.18 2681 95.2 59400 12449 0.840 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 98.3 45.8 2.97 2677 97.9 59400 12046 0.843 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 107.4 48.8 3.16 2675 94.3 59400 12525 0.834 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 105.8 45.8 2.97 2674 95.7 59400 12407 0.851 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 100.9 47.7 3.09 2670 96.9 59400 12261 0.850 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 111.0 50.9 3.30 2669 89.3 59400 12584 0.839 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 111.0 50.9 3.30 2669 89.3 59400 12584 0.839 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 114.7 46.5 3.01 2668 99.3 59400 12003 0.875 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 109.1 47.8 3.10 2668 96.6 59400 12269 0.857 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 107.0 43.8 2.84 2663 100.0 59400 11604 0.880 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 107.1 46.4 3.01 2663 95.6 59400 12242 0.852 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 111.5 47.8 3.10 2660 96.3 59400 12135 0.857 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 106.5 46.1 2.99 2659 94.9 59400 12230 0.851 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 106.5 46.1 2.99 2659 94.9 59400 12230 0.851 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 106.5 46.1 2.99 2659 94.9 59400 12230 0.851 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 103.7 46.3 3.00 2658 98.5 59400 11833 0.859 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 103.7 46.3 3.00 2658 98.5 59400 11833 0.859 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 102.6 44.4 2.88 2651 96.3 59400 12018 0.854 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 111.1 47.1 3.05 2648 96.1 59400 12028 0.856 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 102.8 44.5 2.89 2643 95.6 59400 11964 0.854 ! Near Maximum !
Nitrochemie A/S 0300 90.3 40.1 2.60 2642 100.0 59400 10875 0.854 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 108.1 46.1 2.98 2641 95.2 59400 11764 0.839 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 507 99.7 45.1 2.92 2638 97.1 59400 11738 0.851 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 93.3 44.1 2.86 2638 99.0 59400 11469 0.851 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 97.0 45.0 2.92 2638 97.2 59400 11724 0.851 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 103.5 44.1 2.86 2637 99.1 59400 11477 0.856 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 103.4 46.3 3.00 2637 95.5 59400 11843 0.849 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 98.9 41.6 2.69 2637 99.6 59400 11205 0.848 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 93.0 41.6 2.69 2637 99.6 59400 11205 0.848 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S321 97.9 45.6 2.96 2637 97.3 59400 11780 0.856 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 107.6 47.6 3.09 2636 93.0 59400 12049 0.854 ! Near Maximum !

We can run it at 20":

Cartridge : .308 Win.
Bullet : .308, 150, Nosler CT BalSilTip 51150
Useable Case Capaci: 46.998 grain H2O = 3.051 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 59400 psi, or 409 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 115 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

3 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 50%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N550 114.1 50.5 3.27 2837 95.4 59400 9958 0.963 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 109.5 49.0 3.17 2828 97.0 59400 9662 0.960 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 107.0 43.4 2.81 2827 100.0 59400 8845 0.966 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 109.6 49.0 3.18 2827 97.0 59400 9647 0.961 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 107.4 48.8 3.16 2822 96.3 59400 9743 0.955 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 105.8 45.8 2.97 2819 97.4 59400 9599 0.972 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 98.3 45.8 2.97 2818 99.1 59400 9230 0.964 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 111.0 50.9 3.30 2817 91.9 59400 9843 0.960 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 111.0 50.9 3.30 2817 91.9 59400 9843 0.960 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 100.9 47.7 3.09 2813 98.4 59400 9463 0.972 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 109.1 47.8 3.10 2812 98.2 59400 9458 0.978 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 114.7 46.5 3.01 2808 99.9 59400 9099 0.997 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 107.1 46.4 3.01 2807 97.3 59400 9471 0.973 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 106.5 46.1 2.99 2804 96.7 59400 9473 0.973 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 106.5 46.1 2.99 2804 96.7 59400 9473 0.973 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 106.5 46.1 2.99 2804 96.7 59400 9473 0.973 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 111.5 47.8 3.10 2803 97.9 59400 9349 0.979 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 107.0 43.8 2.84 2799 100.0 59400 8724 1.002 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 103.7 46.3 3.00 2797 99.5 59400 9025 0.982 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 103.7 46.3 3.00 2797 99.5 59400 9025 0.982 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 102.6 44.4 2.88 2793 97.9 59400 9281 0.976 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 111.1 47.1 3.05 2790 97.7 59400 9293 0.979 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 102.8 44.5 2.89 2785 97.3 59400 9258 0.977 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 108.1 46.1 2.98 2781 97.0 59400 9106 0.962 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 107.6 47.6 3.09 2780 95.0 59400 9377 0.977 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 103.4 46.3 3.00 2778 97.2 59400 9170 0.972 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 507 99.7 45.1 2.92 2778 98.4 59400 9047 0.974 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 97.0 45.0 2.92 2777 98.5 59400 9033 0.974 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S321 97.9 45.6 2.96 2777 98.6 59400 9083 0.979 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 93.3 44.1 2.86 2774 99.8 59400 8767 0.974 ! Near Maximum !

Same result. Slower powder move up on the table, Faster Powders move down.