How many are restricted to max length of magizine versus loading out to the lands? I find that over 80% of my reloads from 25-06 to 375 H&H are restricted by magazine length by in many cases up to .20 or more?

Common for you or am I the exception to the rule?

Very common. Unless you have a custom chambered bbl. few factory rifle allow you to load into the lands w/ all bullet wts.

I agree with fredj, but would go so far as to say ANY bullet weights. I have measured 40 to 50 rifles this year and there were absolutely none of them (many different mfgs.) was a loaded round at max length the magazine would allow did ANY bullet get to the lands. I think this is intentional by the mfgs so that any SAAMI round can't be jammed into the lands by a customer and thereby possibly cause a dangerous overpressure situation. I've not seen it discussed on AR, but this may very well be common knowledge by some of the experts who frequent here, although I have HEARD--never seen--of rifles where this or that round would get a bullet into contact with the lands.

Would be interesting if some our smith experts weigh in.

Good news, I've always been able to achieve excellent accuracy whatever the case has been with Maximum Magazine Overall Length ( maybe that's a new acronym, MMOL,) vs the distance from the lands. That's what reloading is all about!

Fish nailed it on the head, if a factory round was way into the lands, it would-

1: be hard to close the bolt, reloaders and target shooters are about the only people who would be used to this, the average shooter wouldn't like it, wouldn't be good if you lost a bullet ejecting a loaded round.

2: possibly dangerous pressures, especially in weaker actions, might disrupt how a semi-auto worked, slamfire anyone?

IMO the idea of "loading to the lands" or close to them is more emotional than practical and in many cases it's just not achievable.

I'm a hunter and varminter and load my varmint rifles mostly as single shot so I can load bullets as far out as I want.....and occasionally load to the lands

My hunting rifles are loaded to fit the magazine and with a minimum of on caliber seat depth. Accuracy is important but is way way overdone with hunting rifles.

I recently read a post from some guy who was concerned that after seating so his bullets were toudhing the rifling, for accuracy, he only had about .020" of bullet in the neck. He was properly concerned about the bullets falling out of his ammo due to handling!

Actually, seating to the lands is rarely helpful with common sporting ammo, and may be detremental to accuracy. I find that all of my rifles require a jump of .025" to .060" for best accuracy.

Factory rifles MUST have leades long enough to safely chamber the longest bullets commonly available, and for round noses rather than spitzers. That requires a lot of jump for lighter bullets before striking the lands and it's part of why it's often easier to get good accuracy with heavy bullets than light ones.

The magazine rules.
However, if I have a single shot rifle, I seat bullets to .010 off the lands for openers, and go from there in my hunt for accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Very common. Unless you have a custom chambered bbl. few factory rifle allow you to load into the lands w/ all bullet wts.

Not true with the 700 Rem LA and any non 300 H&H length cartridge. The Remington has a magazine far longer than necessary for any of the rounds shorter than 300 H&H.

For the 222 Sized round the 700 SA can altered to use the rounds loaded against the lands.

If you really want to load that way there is nothing wrong with using a rifle as a single shot.

I put an A&B barrel on my Savage 110 in 260 Remington. That barrel must have a short throat because I hit the lands with 120g Nosler BTs well before the max magazine length.

I think the Hornady manual had a similar warning about either .260 Rem or 7mm-08s having short chambers.

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
Very common. Unless you have a custom chambered bbl. few factory rifle allow you to load into the lands w/ all bullet wts.

Not true with the 700 Rem LA and any non 300 H&H length cartridge. The Remington has a magazine far longer than necessary for any of the rounds shorter than 300 H&H.

For the 222 Sized round the 700 SA can altered to use the rounds loaded against the lands.

If you really want to load that way there is nothing wrong with using a rifle as a single shot.

Well it is true because I said "few rifles". I'm sure thre are some, as you noted, but as the other guys stated, most don;t even get close.

I load single shot except with my 45-70, I can put another round in pretty quick!

I think Vapo made a very important point when he remarked above that accuracy is very over-rated as to its importance in hunting rifles these days anyway.

If we were really honest with ourselves & our hunted game, and took only shots out to the ranges we could be pretty sure of handling with our own limited human skills, we'd probably not be shooting at over 350 yards at most animals of a size we normally hunt, anyway. Out to that distance, 2 MOA is quite adequate for North American big game.

That does beg the other related question though, which is "does seating to the lands actually improve accuracy"? Often it does not, though sometimes it certainly does.

The only instances in which I have found it usually does markedly improve accuracy in all my guns is in the situation where cast bullets are being fired at relatively high velocities(over 1,900 fps). Even there, it is generally more productive when using "fixed" ammo to have the bullet nose just barely touch the lands, rather than be forced any distance into them. The gain is apparently from just"centering up" the front end of the cartridge with the center of the bore, and at the same time obturating the bore without any significant movement of the bullet required first..

Then, of course, there is always the point that jamming bullets into the lands as some benchresters do, creates the risk of having the bullet stay in the lands when a live cartridge is extracted. That creates a real mess!! Powder everywhere, inluding in the trigger mechanism, the locking lug recesses, the firing pin hole (with some fine-grained powders), etc. In the hunting field without a cleaning rod to knock the stuck bullet out of the lands (not cartridge) that can really ruin a hunt. I doubt that if that happened with factory ammo in a factory gun, the hunter would be writing in afterward to the gun maker expressing his appreciation.

Lastly, there is the possibility that because of variance in bullet dimensions, even from the same make and lot, it CAN be possible to develop a load in which the bullet hits the lands and works just right with some bullets, yet which won't even allow the bolt or breech to close with others which are supposedly identical.

That is much more common with those single shots which have no camming power than with bolt actions, but I had a pre-'64 Winchester "National Match" Model 70 (factory model with standard sporter weight barrel, but "Marksman" stock) which would chamber some rounds of "white box" Lake City Match, but not others from the same box! Sure wouldn't want to be shooting a rapid fire match with that gun and ammo. Sold it rather than run the risk.

quote:

Originally posted by muygrande:
How many are restricted to max length of magizine versus loading out to the lands? ...

From what I've seen, it depends on the particular Rifle, the Bullet Profile and the Bullet Weight.

The current fad toward the highest B.C. possible, coupled with the Least Bullet Weight a person can possibly find, is a significant factor in not being able to get close to the Lands.

So, if you want the Bullet Into-the-Lands, it is normally possible by choosing the correct Bullet. As some of the above posters have said, sometimes it helps Accuracy and sometimes it doesn't. A lot of that depends on if you work the Load up for the Best Harmonic with the Bullet into or close to the Lands.
-----

As a side note, when I swapped my last 22" 308Win M700 Remington for a 24" 308Win Wby U-Lt, the distance to the Lands on the Wby was considerably shorter than the Remington when it was new. I wondered about that a good bit and decided the Wby folks might have thought a person buying one with that long of a barrel was probably going to be using high B.C. Bullets. But I could have been over-thinking it and it could have been just the luck of the draw.

A Round Nose, Kissing-the-Lands in the Remington would fit in the magazine when a high B.C. Bullet would not Kiss-the-Lands if the Weight was Low.

Thanks to everyone for sharing the wealth of experiences. For a while, I thought I was using my sinclair OAL equipment all wrong.

Just my two pence worth, - I have found that the search for accuracy usually ends somewhere abouts 6thou'/18thou jump for my stuff!

Sierras take on OAL from their "X-Ring" newsletter.
http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=techserv...g&volume=9&issue=3#3

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
I have measured 40 to 50 rifles this year and there were absolutely none of them (many different mfgs.) was a loaded round at max length the magazine would allow did ANY bullet get to the lands.

Alright, I finally get to disagree with Fish! Well, not really disagree just say that I have info that is very different.

Here's my list taken from my spreadsheet where I have 41 rifles listed. I don't have complete information on all of those but here is what I can say for sure

Rifle/caliber with no problem reaching the lands and fitting the magazine
Mato/338 win mag
Sako/338 win mag
Rem SPS/300 win mag
Sako/300 win mag
Mato/300 win mag
Kimber/300WSM
Rem/300 win mag
Sako TRGS/300 win mag
Sauer/30-06
Mato/30-06
Sako/30-06
Steyr/30-06
Rem/30-06
Savage/30-06
Ruger/30-06
Rem/7 mag
Vanguard/7 mag
Wtby Ultralight/280
Sako-Hart/280AI
Sako L61R/270
Win pre-64/264 win mag
Browning-Douglas/6.5 rem mag
Vanguard-Shilen/6.5 rem mag
Ruger/223

Rifle/caliber - can reach lands and fit magazine with judicious bullet selection
Browning/270 win
Win pre-64/270 win
Sako/270 win
Remington auto/270 win
Browning/270 win
Sako/270 win
Remington/222
Remington/22-250

Rifle/caliber where not possible to reach the lands and fit magazine
Weatherby/30-378
Browning/300 win mag
Browning/300 win mag
Browning/300 win mag
Ruger/300 win mag
Browning/7 mag

Most of the problems I see in coming close to the lands is with the detachable mag Brownings in 300 win mag. The reason being that the 300 win mag case is a longer case than the 338, 7mm or 264 win mag cases and Browning seems to have made the action (or at least the magazine) for the shorter length, although even some of those won't work.

The 270 win case is another one that is usually close. Fortunately it is possible to find a bullet that you can seat where you want to, especially the 140 gr TSX which will enable you to get closer to the lands and still fit the magazine than the 130 gr TSX (go figure).

Personally, it is like a burr under my saddle if I can't play with seating depth in the jammed-to-.07"-off area.

I totally agree with Vapodog. IMO it's a case of one small snippet taken from the Bench Shooter's bible and made into a holy grail of hunting rifle ammo making.
Contrary to what has been posted by some, I have yet to find any sort of magic "jump to the lands" that will turn a dog of a load into a one holer. Any improvements in accuracy I've gotten have been minor and would only be signifagant in target shooting.
And, FWIW, I would never go to the woods with ammo that was seated into the lands.

In my opinion, one reason seating a bullet to almost touch the lands improves accuracy significantly at times is because of a sloppy or perhaps out of line bore, throat or chamber. In other words, almost touching or touching the lands with a bullet corrects for a rifle defect. If the chamber and bore are very precise, touching the lands with a bullet probably makes much less of a difference.

"Load to the Lands- More fiction than fact?"

Yep.

I think the main gain bench shooters see from loading to the lands is increased consistancy in bullet pull. The bullet jammed in the lands has a more consistant resistance to movement then a bullet held by neck tension.

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
I think the main gain bench shooters see from loading to the lands is increased consistancy in bullet pull. The bullet jammed in the lands has a more consistant resistance to movement then a bullet held by neck tension.

Boy! Right up front that seems to have some meaning. roger

Woods, very interesting intel from you, I have some of those same rifles and none of the bullets I have 'in stock' will get to the lands. Very interesting, and supports others comments that it's a crapshoot. My TRG's are .270, 338 and .308, no way to get to lands and clear magazine, except with TSX's in the 308, barely touch. Any of the custom barreled jobs I discount, got plenty of custom barreled that can get to the lands on, some of them barreled and chambered with that in mind!

Will say that all of the rifles I have played with were with a very small, maybe even one, bullet, typically a ballistic tip or similar!

As usual a good, informative post by you!

the kimber 8400 300wsm, i could get 150gr ballistic tips to the lands, 165s too. and 190gr berger VLDS. accuracy double when the bullets wernt just touching the lands.

I think it's normal anymore. Sooo Sad!! Except my CZ550 FS 9.3x62 The box is/was longer. It's now getting rechambered to a 9.3x64

The shape of the bullet's ogive determines how sensitive the bullet is to jump. Hunting bullets generally don't care very much. The lo-o-ong target bullets are a different matter.
.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
I think the main gain bench shooters see from loading to the lands is increased consistancy in bullet pull. The bullet jammed in the lands has a more consistant resistance to movement then a bullet held by neck tension.

Boy! Right up front that seems to have some meaning. roger

Roger- It would have a lot of meaning IF all the bullets were the same as each other. Unfortunately, even with the very best benchrest bullets that can be made, they are not always identical, even within the same box of bullets. That, of course, is why a bullet ogive comparator is so handy. It shows the loader the amount of variance in bullets of the same weight from the same maker, and the same box.

Basically that variance means that if the loader jams the bullet into the lands they are jammed different distances into the lands directly in relationship to the differences in the bullets' ogive measurements.

In those instances, uniformly neck-turned cases, of good quality brass to begin with, and fired the same number of times as each other, MAY give even better bullet pull uniformity if the bullets DON'T touch the lands at all.

I can honestly only remember a couple rifles that I couldn't get on the lands because of magazine length.

CZ's are very easy to get to touch the lands. From my experience.

The whole 0.01 seating depth issue is overrated IMO.

I have never had a goto load 0.01 off the lands.
I think the closest is 0.02.

I start all my bullets at least 0.03 off the lands and sometimes just use the cannelure.

Except for Barnes, I start 0.05 off the lands and move out if they don't group. With the TSx's I like the case to end on one of the high bands so the case mouth has something to crimp against.

To me seating depth is the fine tuning of an already good load.

I like to have nice triangle shaped three shot groups. With a consistent low deviation and in the velocity range I am looking for. I can then usually tighten the groups by tweaking the depth.

More often than not, I will move farther away and get better groups.

Since most of my reloading is for hunting, I would rather have a shorter OAL for the cartridge.

I use the "to the lands" measurement mostly to keep the bullet out said lands.

I have a Bushmaster V-Match AR15 with a throat so far out, I can't reach the lands even if I seat 75 gr Berger VLD just barely enough in the mouth to get the bullet to stay. That cartridge is ~1/2" too long to fit in a magazine.


I have Win94 45 Colt that shoots more accurately with 250 gr XTPs crimped into the canalure than if I seat long and touch the lands.

I have a Win94 30-30 that only shoots cast 311291 170 gr bullets seated out to 2.4", which is way to long to feed from the tube.

Most of my rifles shoot best if I seat the bullet long enough to touch the lands, but I do not like to seat so long I can't extract the bullet. [If the bullet gets stuck in the lands, and I try to extract, I get a number of problems; a bullet stuck in the throat, powder all over in the action, and I am down one round of ammo. Subsequent rounds fired over spilled stick powder get an impression. Brass with this impression are said to have leprosy.]

When I touch the lands or jam into the lands, it acts like an extra grain or two of powder has been added in terms of pressure sign.

What does it all mean?
Some guns can reach the lands, some can't.
Some guns shoot better if I reach the lands, some don't.