I am encountering excessive variation with spinning my loaded ammo on my concentricity gauge. While fired cases reveal nearly perfect shape and resized ones have very little variation; the loaded rounds with those looong 160-180 gr.7mm bullets show a lack of concentricity that can affect accuracy. I have used both 7/8-14 and also Wilson in line seating dies with these bullets and these reloads simply are not as concentric as I know they can be. Any insight to this problem?

Can you post photos of your setup and the technique you are using? What is the location you are measuring the run out and how much it is?

The proof of the pie is in the eating. How do they shoot?
Also, the big 7 was designed to shoot those looooong 160's and 170's. Without a whole lot of heavy lifting, you can get a 160 up to 3000fps. Which is a good start toward killing stuff.
Assuming that you're taking your run-outs on the resized cases at the neck and they are straight but once you seat a bullet, the bullet is not concentric, obviously, the seater die is at fault. My first WAG would be that the cup in the seater doesn't fit your bullet nose or is crooked and is pushing the bullet out of alighment but you say you have used two different seater dies and the problem still exists. So the logical answer is your technique?
As SR asked, tell us a bit about your set up and technique. Also, just how much run out are you experiencing? And, what rifle are you shooting the reloads in?

Technique over equipment

Seating a bullet strait isn't simply dropping one on top of a charged case and pumping the handle

Luck must be involved somehow if this is the method

Some care....some don't

Your brass can be perfectly straight right out of the sizing die but, if the necks are not uniform in thickness which 99% f them aren`t the difference will show once a bullet is seated and run out checked off of it.
I`d look at brass thickness 1st as to where your problem is coming from.

Seat half way, turn 180 degrees (the round, not your body) and seat the rest of the way, then turn and ram it in again. BUT, how do they shoot; if they shoot like you want, don't fret.

The shell holder will not align your case on the C/L of your seater die....this takes "feel" and a twisting motion that one uses not unlike measuring a long part with a micrometer

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Seat half way, turn 180 degrees (the round, not your body) and seat the rest of the way, then turn and ram it in again. BUT, how do they shoot; if they shoot like you want, don't fret.

Exactamundo. What sort of accuracy are you getting from the non concentrics.

What type of runout are you getting?

You need to measure at each stage. So check a fired case, check a sized case, check a seated bullet. Seat a bullet in a dummy case without priming it just to see (some of the gauges are affected by an imperfect primer).

When we know where the problem lies it is easier to address. I see your comments, but how much is the sized case on runout? Bear in mind that a bullet is a longer lever and will generally amplify the error on the case.

A Wilson seater should add nothing to run out if used properly.

Bear in mind that your bullets can also be the problem.

quote:

Your brass can be perfectly straight right out of the sizing die but, if the necks are not uniform in thickness which 99% f them aren`t the difference will show once a bullet is seated and run out checked off of it.
I`d look at brass thickness 1st as to where your problem is coming from.

Best answer listed

If the neck thickness is not uniform, it will show up when you check the runout after resizing. The resizer ball will push any variance in thickness to the outside when you pull it through the neck.
We still haven't found out what the amount of runout is.

I use a Lee Factory Crimp die. I don't put a heavy crimp on the round I just adjust the die to kiss the round and then turn the round 180 degrees as suggested above. I think it really makes a difference!

Check the neck wall thickness. I went crazy with this, finally measured the brass and found as much as .002-.003 variation in the wall thickness; turned the necks and runout went to almost 0.
C.G.B.

using the wrong loading manual is the problem....find another manual and all will be well....it'll also help if you throw away that concentricity gage and shoot the rounds to see what effect you're getting.

The throw away the devise advice is bull shit

I just told one of my toolmakers to quit using his mics and indicators

I agree with Vapo. No matter how much you tinker with the damn stuff, sooner or later you've got to shoot it. And you gain all sorts of fringe benefits. Like bench technique, holding and squeezing, and finally, learning if that .0000001/2" actually makes a difference.
You fire through your block of ammo one time. Any cases that throw wide shots are marked and given a second chance. If they fail on the second go, you toss them in the scrap bucket and lay awake at night angsting over what nit-picking variance caused them to fail.

So......you have zero clue if your ammo is strait and you dont care

Glad it works for you......myself I like to measure my finished products before use

On the job and at home

My bench technique is just fine shooting the best ammo I can make and its all good from the start.....no excuses and no trial and error

Right, I do not care one whit if the ammo is perfectly straight or not; I only care if it groups like I want it to. After all, that is the only goal. I have seen straight ammo shoot like crap and un-measured ammo shoot great. And I have a 308 target rifle that shoots anything into .5 inch. (with the right loads) In most hunting rifles, it doesn't matter. But for those who have the time to do it and it makes them feel better, by all means spin your rounds. I prefer to be on the range or in the field.

If the quality of your ammo isn't a factor then why bother handloading

Funny

Some of this is truly humorous.

The only way to test ammo is to shoot it?
Of course by then it is gone. If you did that in competition and got bad results I guess you figured out of your ammo had runnout way too late and after the fact.

Kind of like testing dynamite to make sure each stick goes bang. You know you have 100% knowledge of the results but you have no product left.

I learned testing ammo made a difference in the late 60s. I rolled a batch of LC-61 30-06 across a table. The rounds that wobbled grouped 2"to 3" , the straight rounds groupede about 1" and a little less.

Just got through loading 500 rounds of 38-40 cowboy ammo loads. I assure you that they all will hit their intended targets. Without regard for straightness. And 100 rounds of 9.3x74r for my Krieghoff double. It will be straight enough because the rifle shoots into 2 inches at 100 yards. Yes, the only way to tell if your system is good is to shoot it. If you are going to shoot in a match, you make sure your equipment and techniques are right before you load it. Ammo concentricity is only one part of the equation. . If test rounds do not shoot like I want, then I will investigate why. Usually it is not the concentricity of the ammo. I only once had a set of RCBS 308 dies that seated bullets more than .003 out. I do not use that die any more. I am not saying do not check your concentricity on every round you load; go for it.

So shoot it and if it groups good you now know you had good ammo.....but it's now gone

Reminds me of a Bugs Bunny cartoon with him hitting each shell with a hammer and marking them dud

Ridiculous

Please, it's RIDICULOUS.

Yep.....it sure is

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
So......you have zero clue if your ammo is strait and you dont care

Glad it works for you......myself I like to measure my finished products before use

On the job and at home

My bench technique is just fine shooting the best ammo I can make and its all good from the start.....no excuses and no trial and error

So what do you do if the ammo is crooked? Tear it all down and start over?
With the precision of the reloading tools we have today, (made, I'll admit, by anal people with calipers growing out of the end of one arm and a tattoo on their forehead that reads" I was born to measure") I've never had a problem with crooked ammo like some seem to. (maybe as you have inferred, Ted, maybe I just have slovenly standards) I do use a bit more attention to my match ammo, but I'd be willing to wager that you could take a box of 30-06 rem/win/fed brass, and a box of standard C&C 165gr bullets, load 'em up right out of the boxes and, if the rifle was sighted in, every one of them would hit inside of a group that would be deadly to a WT deer. Even those that were .25grs off in the powder charge and .000001 off in the run out.

I agree on the account of deer accuracy 100%

As far as "born to measure".....I'm a 25 year Journeyman Toolmaker so I'm sure I'm a bit faster than most

As far as what I do with ammo that has run out that I feel is above my tolerance?

I fix it with the help of a Truetool but one from my own personal manufacture....not purchased

.005 and under @ the ogive is my target I try to maintain on my bolt guns

AR15 and pistol get no special attention and are ran through a progressive press

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
So shoot it and if it groups good you now know you had good ammo.....but it's now gone

But you have conformation that your eq and technique is sound.

You can measure it and still shoot....if you get the order right!

I like to know how much runout there is or isn't....I think it is a way of sharpening my game. The final proof of course is shooting, but there are many other variables in that. I like to be able to address one at a time when I can.

Cheers,

Dan