1. Are you sceptical of the hype? I got a cartridge today and it does not look that special at all! It's .050" wider than a .300 winny and .4 shorter. Big deal.

2. Boyles law reads: Pressure = temperature/volume. What are we giving up? This cartridge is not a sphere!

A proud owner of a .300 WSM said he is getting 2925 FPS out of 64 grs of some powder and a 210 VLD bullet. He says it takes 72 grains to get a similar velocity out of the .300 Winny.

I just don't believe it. The pressure has to be higher.

One thing I like is that the rebated rim is not extreme. I think the .284 Winchester looks wrong. Also if this is necked to 7 mm the neck is going to be very short.

They just come out with new cartridge's to sell guns.

I compared the .300 Remington SAUM to the .300 WSM today and the Winchester cartridge is about a 1/10" longer on LOA and the case. But the real difference to the eye is that the very sharp (35 degree) shoulder of the WSM carries the body much further forward. SAUM looks like a 25 degree shoulder.

They are both priced at $39.95 for a box of 20. Each had premium bullets.

The 300WSM falls between the 30-06 and 300 Win Mag. It is not the ballistic equal of the Winnie but it isn't far behind and it fits in a short action. In it's defense, it is a fine shooting short action round that packs a punch. Makes for a very nice handling, mountain rifle that can really reach out there if the need arrises.

The 300WSM has only 2gr less capacity than that of it's big brother. So meeting the proformance of the 300win long mag would be quite easy.

Anyone ever measure and compare the .308 Norma Magnum to these newer cartridges. If you do, I think you may be surprised.

There are just to many 30s out there today, just as GSF said, to sell new guns. When it comes to 30s and hunting ya only need 2. The good old .30-30 and the 300 Weatherby. With that combination you can take most anything at almost any range.

Quick question?

What readily available SHORT action 30cal,offers more performance?..............

The 300 WM has about 8 grains more capacity (about 10%) than the WSM, not 2. No, not a huge difference, but definately a difference.

Although, as Big Stick said, if you like short actions, the WSM case is hard to beat.

ARE THE WSM'S COMPRESSED LOADS? IN MY EXPERIENCES, COMPRESSED LOADS DONT GROUP AS WELL. BUT THAT COULD JUST BE ME.

And the pressure is not know yet. If the WSM and SAUM are loaded to higher pressures then it's not a fair comparison.

I am waiting for more facts. Meanwhile cartridge marketing seems to be a fact.

If I can't reload the .300 WSM to equal the .300 Winny then it's not a big improvement.

Over at the benchrest forum it was stated "nobody is posting .300 WSM data on the net" "email me"

Of the two cartridges the .300 WSM looks far sexier. I don't think the SAUM will fly because of that.

Big Stick has it correct. SHORT action is the operative term. I think the proper comparision is not with the 300 Win Mag but with the 308. That way you are comparing apples to apples as they both fit in the same gun. A WM needs a "bigger" gun.

The next rifle I have built will be in 300 WSM!

------------------
Pausing to reload,

Rick

Never volunteer. Trust no one. Expect sabotage.

Remington's version makes perfect sense,as it is shorter,to fit within the 700's mag confines. That 1/10" isn't going to rob any real capacity,but makes it more 700 friendly. Good move by them,because it was the ONLY move they had.

I see the cartridge in the same light,I view the 30-'06. A superb vehicle to spawn Wildcats. The parent case will function nicely,as is,but it opened a whole bunch of new doors.The 7mm and 25cal versions,appeal most to me.

Another point,that most will disagree with. If you are looking for optimal long action 30cal performance,the 300Winny is NOT it. If you are gonna tote a long action,you may as well have the muscle. Make mine the 300Super(30-8mmRemMag).................

So roughly, .300 WSM is to .308 Win what 300 WM is to .30-06?

I think comparing ballistics of the .300 WSM to the .300 WM is a good marketing move, but once the hype dies down and more people chrony different loads, the difference will become more apparent. Right now moly coating and hot loads seem to be be used a bit much for there not to me some trickery going on in the factory numbers. If I turn out to be wrong, so be it.

Regardless, I think it will prove to be a valuable cartridge. I may eventually pick up a rifle so chambered.

[This message has been edited by Wolverine (edited 01-25-2002).]

What a bunch of guessing, heresay and downright lies!

1. The WSM does not fall between the 30-06 and the 300 winny mag, it equalls it, at least through the range from 130 to 180 grain bullets. At least mine does.

2. the pressure is most certainly known. It runs at 65,000 psi the same as the win mag.

3. The WSM holds 7 grains less water then the win mag.

4. There's a lot of load data available. Alliant just came out with some, Hornady has some, but you have to call or e-mail them for it, Hodgdon has some on their website, I got some preliminary data from accurate arms. That leaves IMR and Vitivori to come out with some.

5. It was not meant to be an improvement on the win mag. Nobody ever said it was faster. It's major atributes are that it is available in short action rifles, it gets it's performance with an average of 10 grains less powder, it kicks less than the win mag, and to start with it is available in a mountain rifle configuration, short and light.

6. In my Browning, I am not running compressed loads to get to top velocity. My hunting load this year was the Hornady 165 SST over 68.0 grains of XMR AA 4350. This gave me 3125 fps and consistant 1.0 inch 100 yd. groups. I tried the 180 SST but it wasn't as accurate, but still no compressed load there either. I would imagine that you would have to compress the powder some to load the 200-220 grain bullets.

------------------
if you run, you just die tired

Big Stick....the answer to your question is the Lazzeroni Patriot...available from Savage if you don't want to pay for the bigger bucks. The .300 Win Mag can't touch it for performance in equal length barrels.

Mmmmm,if it such a great cartridge,why is it housed in a Savage?(grin)

Why spend that much on dies and brass,when the mainstream Winchester/Remington offerings,will end up putting it in the grave and performance is comparable?

The beauty of the WSM/SAUM is in the standard boltface. I bet John HATED it when the WSM was unveiled? I can appreciate the Patriot's merits,but it can't buck the tide of the major Manufacturers momentum.

Seems goofy to me,to buy a cheap rifle,in one of the most expensive cartridges to shoot? But there are many things I don't understand...................

BigStick:

I agree about the 300WSM cutting heavily into the market of the Patriot.

As for your question about Savage: It's because they make the most consistently accurate American production rifles on the market.

[This message has been edited by Wolverine (edited 01-26-2002).]

I own and shoot several Savage heavy barreled rifles. I'm not slamming them.

A Savage is just a Savage and that is the end of it. They do shoot well. At least the examples I've owned do.

I couldn't make the broad statement,that they are the most consistently accurate American made rifle though.

They are ugly,roughshod and prone to parts failure(extractors and firing pins,in my case),but exhibit accuracy potential for the investment cost. If you can keep from looking at them and keep them running,they'll lend good service.

For the money,give me Howa.................

Big Stick:

I wasn't bent out of shape or anything, but I like to razz Savage bashers from time to time. It sounds like you don't fall in that category though. I know they're ugly in more ways than one, but I love 'em.
____

"I couldn't make the broad statement,that they are the most consistently accurate American made rifle though."

You're right. No one could say for sure, but if I were a betting man I know where my money would be.
___

"For the money,give me Howa................."

Tikka makes a great rifle for the price, too.

[This message has been edited by Wolverine (edited 01-26-2002).]

BigStick...agree 100% that the Patriot has little chance to exceed the popularity of either the WSM or the RSUM plus I think the Savage is an ugly rifle too. However, and it's a big however, if you are going to build a custom rifle and you want a short action "why not go with the Patriot?". I built mine on the same McMillan action (the MCRT) that Lazzeroni uses (to get the correct bolt-face size), I used the same bottom metal they use, I used the same stock they used (McMillan) etc......if the cost is the same for a custom WSM...or SRUM....or the Patriot, why not go witht the best one? I know the brass is more expensive...my response is so what..it's better and I know how to anneal it so they last...the dies are more expensive...so what at $100 that's only $10 a year for 10 years. Is the extra performance worth it? I don't know....my car can go a lot faster than I will ever drive it. I guess my bottom line is I would rather have a few really nice rifles that fit my needs than 15 or 20 that sit in the safe...I don't really need a .308, a .30/06, a .300 WinMag etc etc...I have the Patriot and when I match it with my Lazzeroni HellCAt (.375) they are a pair that I can take anywhere and shoot anything....no need for the .270 or the .260 of the 7x57 or the 7mm08, or the .338 or .416 'cuz I'm covered.

I do have a .22BR for the little stuff but that's a specialized little scapel.

Not that my choices should be anyone else's choices or even the best for many (tastes and bankroll vary) but after a lot of years I like to keep my choices simple and it certainly does keep my reloading bench a lot less cluttered.

DB Bill,

I certainly wasn't criticising a man's pet cartridge,to base a Custom Rifle upon. I've built my share of off the wall chamberings and very much understand that itch.

In an action that readily lends itself,to a cartridge of the Patriot's stature,it is hard to fault from a performance aspect. My point was,there are more actions that do not lend to that mating,than those that readily accomodate it. So that takes the Patriot out of contention,in numerous action choices,simply due to design constraints.

So I know where you are coming from. I'm the last guy that is going to argue performance virtues,as I have notions of my own,that aren't widely accepted.

But Joe Average isn't going to spring for a McMillan action,just to say "I'm shootin' a Patriot". That's my point. The design was so very nearly close,to lending the cartridge a wide availability,by the masses. As she sits now,it is obscure and overlooked by most,due to the cost associated with having a quality rifle so chambered. A double edge sword,if you will. So even the Savage chambering,will be engulfed by the WSM/SAUM mainstream.

A laymen would ask you,"what are you going to kill and at what range",that he can't with his 300WSM? The answer is nothing,at any range. Because the cases are close enough,that it is the Indian,not the arrow.

So do not think I'm berating your choice,as that is not my intent. Most guys wouldn't(even if they could)spend 5fold the money,on a cartridge that offers a 2% increase in performance. They'd buy a Rem700 in 300Wby and say,"top THAT". You know how it goes.

In my opinion,the WSM is a grand invent. Sure it was an old idea,but they made that performance available to the masses(rebated rim). Now every guy with a wild hair on his ass,can put a highend barrel blank on a WSM action and have some real short action performance,coupled with extreme accuracy. Toss a good synthetic stock in the mix and you've a pretty serious Shootin' Iron.

At least that's my take on it..............

I just looked the pressures for various 30 cal cartriges as specified in the data files of my QuickLoad program. Most are list as PSI/CIP (CIP is the European standards organizating like SAAMI is for the US). The two organizations my not use the exact same method for measuring the PSI values, so they my not list the same max values for the same cartridge.

300 Win Mag 62366 PSI - CIP
300 Wby Mag 63816 PSI - CIP
300 Rem Ultra 65000 PSI - SAAMI (not the Short Ultra Mag)
308 Win 60190 PSI - CIP
30-06 58740 PSI - CIP
300 WSM 64000 PSI - Wildcat (at the time the data was put in the programs data files, the SAAMI or CIP standards were not available.

Big Stick...can't fault your logic or reasoning as I think both the WSM and RSUM are here to stay...depends on which rifle you like I think...the Rm 700 or 7 OR the Winchester Model 70 (won't even comment on Browning which are even uglier than the Savage)...and I can't honestly say I wouldn't have built either one over the Patriot if they had been available then.

Big Stick,

I agree, the .300 WSM is a great cartridge. The .270 and 7mm permutations I don't think will do as well, as they don't offer that much more on deer than the .270 or .280.

My loads might be compressed slightly, or not at all, certainly not heavily compressed. I use WLR primers, not magnum, and easily achieve 3040 fps with a 180 grain bullet, 3300 fps with a 150 grain bullet, and 2870 with a 200 grain bullet.

I've found the cartridge is much more accurate than the .300 Win Mag and the recoil is about on par with the .30/06. All in all, a winner. If only Wincehster would lighten up the barrel a bit.

There's an article on my website.

www.rifleshooter.com

DB Bill,

If I'd of built a 25-06Ackley first,I wouldn't have likely built three 257Wby's. I love the 257Wby,but the 25-06AI comes pretty damn close. Oh well,no harm done.

I've built two 30-8mmRemmags and am afraid that when I build a 300Ultra,I'll shitcan them. I'm torn on that decision.

There are lots of ways to get to the finish line! Likely no two guys,get there in the same fashion..............

KK,

I'd not underestimate the staying power of the 7mm offering.

My personal opinion,is that it's the best of the lot. Mainly because I'm a 120/140gr X fan and that is enough capacity to propell them at a good clip. Would make a very nice "all-arounder".

I don't know why someone would be worried about compressed load densities? That is something I strive for. I much prefer that,as opposed to lower case densities.

I am sooo craving a 257WSM,that I can barely stand it!................

Big Stick:

Just curious:
You wouldn't happen to know a guy who went by "Relentless Pursuit" on another hunting board, would you?

Savage Rifle's can't be all bad... It seems Sierra is using them for test's on new load data. One more little thing, I believe that Remington short action ultra mag is a 30 degree shoulder.

[This message has been edited by Sparticus (edited 01-26-2002).]

Wolverine,

Actually know that guy,quite well. Want me to tell him something for ya?..............

grizz,

Your example load does match the velocity I'd expect out of a 300 Win Mag with a 23" barrel--but with 180's, not 165's.

Big Stick,

I'm glad you brought up the Ultra, or I would have had to! Same boltface, same length case and what, about 15 grains more capacity than the 8mm Rem Mag case? If you want the most muscle from a standard sized action, look no further.

I think much of what you said about the WSM case also applies to the RUM case--major manufacturers making rifles, cases, loaded ammo, etc for them is definately going to hit the popularity of Lazz/Dakota as well as various big wildcats pretty hard. My first example: My gunsmith didn't have a reamer but did he charge me for it? No. He expects to get much use out of it. I don't think he'd have done the same for a proprietary or wildcat cartridge.

Big Stick:

Yeah. Tell him it's good to see him around.

I believe it could be a more effiecent case. When using boyles law, that applies to assuming the a certain grainage of powder is being ignited at the same rate with both guns. From what I have seen, the WSM gets quicker ignition due the fatter shorter case. Kinda like using a percussion cap versus musket cap on black powder guns. Now if you were able to ignite from inside the case of both shells, I believe you would get the results you would expect with boyles law.

Jon A,

My reservations on the 300Ultra,regard barrel length. That is one of the reasons I got rid of my 30-378. It REQUIRES more than 26" of barrel length,to realize any significant gains(my opinion). It did little,that my 30-8mmRemmags wouldn't(one 26" the other 30"),in a realistic situation and bullets I favor.

So I'm not convinced that the Ultra will really trump my 300Supers. The capacity is there,but I remain uncertain that it will yield a worthy increase,while managing a portable length tube(26"). That is another area,that stumps me. I can hit 3350fps with moly 180's in my 26" Super and 3500fps in my 30" tube(both twisted 1-10"). I'm not convinced the 300Ultra is gonna truly humble those figures.

BUT my 338Ultra I built(26"),REALLY suprised me with it's potential and extreme accuracy. My favorite load is 210gr XLC's at 3400fps. I never dreamt that. But it is a slightly smaller case and of more efficient design than the 300Ultra,due to the increased bore diameter.

So I am 100% convinced the 338Ultra is the greatest thing,since smokeless powder. I'm leery of too high of expectations,regarding the 300 version and a 26" tube. I'm seriously considering a 30-338Ultra to yield more latitude in the mag box and to slightly decrease capacity,to help with efficiency in a 26 inch long barrel. My gut tells me,that is a superior design.

BUT,then I come full circle,back to two existing Big30's,that are very capable. I'm trying very hard to be content,yet am still very curious.

Confusing,ain't I?!?..............

Wolverine,

I tell him you said "hey"...........(grin)

Big Stick,

All good points. There's no doubt that the larger the case, the more it will benefit from a longer barrel. But, I can't wait to see what I'll be able to get from my 26" tube--unfortunately the wait will be a long one.

There still isn't much good data for this round, but some of it definately shows the gains will be there even with a normal length barrel--they just won't be quite as big as they would be with a longer one. For example, the Barnes manual gets a high of 3419 with the 180 XLC--out of a 24" barrel! Saeed's data easily beats that with a non-coated high friction X-bullet from a 26".

I'm thinking the advantage will increase as bullet weight does--really letting the slow burning powders shine. Barnes quotes their original 250 RN at nearly 2800 from the 24" and Saeed got nearly 3000 from a 240 with the 26". Unfortunately, at this time, most premium bullet makers don't go over 200 so much of that advantage (if I'm right) is negated (for now--that will change, trust me, I just don't know how long it will take).

To add to the general discussion for everybody, let's talk about efficiency:

I must have read "X% powder increase only results in X-alot% increase in velocity...so the larger case is much less efficient" about a bazillion times posted here, elswhere and printed in magazines written by "experts."

Any statement of the sort is simply wrong. Very wrong.

A certain amount of powder is not a certain amount of potential velocity. It's a certain amount of potential energy.

Although not mathematically related, this analogy illustrates the point: Your mini-van tops out at 100 MPH. If you double the HP of your engine, you should be able to go 200 MPH, right? Wrong. It takes 8 times as much net power to reach 200 MPH as it does 100 MPH--with the exact same adiabatic efficiency from the engine, same aerodynamic efficiency from the body, etc.

The last 100 fps of velocity you add to the bullet, increases the kinetic energy of that bullet much more than did the previous 100 fps. So, even with the same efficiency, it requires more chemical energy to achieve.

As it pertains to this discussion, the 300 Win Mag has a 10% increase in powder capacity. With the same efficiency (assuming an optimum powder is used for each) that should mean a 10% increase in muzzle energy. With a 180 grain bullet, that equates to less than 150 fps gain--less than 5% increase in velocity. That's the same efficiency.

I think that's part of the reason many have labeled the RUM case as so inefficient--that last 200-300 fps over the Win isn't nearly as big as the 25% increase in powder--but if you look at muzzle energy, you'll find that yes, it is slightly less efficient but not nearly as bad as people judging by velocity % say it is.

Of course, in the real world, the 300 Win case isn't quite as efficient as the 300 WSM. Why? Short, fat? Give me a break!

I won't say that the shape of the case has nothing to do with efficiency, but I will say it's only a tiny factor. I'll also say the marketing people at Winchester deserve "The Clinton Award" for getting nearly every gun writer that should know better to repeat it, and getting people to buy into it. Well, I guess that's their job.

From an Engineering standpoint, they should be drug out into the street and shot! If what they say is true, the 338-06 and 35 Whelen should be the most inefficient cases in the world! Tall and skinny! Horrible!

Neck a WSM case up to 338 or 35 caliber, load them to the same pressure, compare muzzle energy per grain of powder burned and I'll bet you my left nut it will lose. For that matter, compare it the same way to a 30-06 loaded to pressures for modern rifles. It loses. It is less efficient than the tall skinny case.

So why is it more efficient than the 300 Win Mag? It's smaller--not shorter, but smaller in case capacity. It has a better expansion ratio. Yes, something people in the gun world have known for decades that "respectable" gun writers seem to have forgotten about the last couple of years--no doubt in large part due to the propeganda campaign Winchester has launched (as well as the free hunts they get to go on when "testing" the WSM).

The way to increase a case's efficiency is to have it shoot a larger diameter bullet. Anytime you increase capacity with the same bore diameter, the expansion ratio goes down as well as the efficiency. We've known that for years. Also, the fact that a WSM case has 1/2" or so longer "effective barrel length" for a given length barrel doesn't hurt either.

As I said before, I'm not saying the shape of the case does nothing--just that any effect it has is tiny compared with the other factors and efficiency does not equate to a certain % increase in velocity for a certain % increase in powder--it just doesn't work that way.

And, I've also said before that I think the WSM case is a really nice design that has many desirable qualities. Enough that it can stand on its own merits without making it out to be something that it's not.

But by doing exactly that (making it out to be something it is not), Winchester and Browning have sold a bunch of rifles. I guess that's what they set out to do and I congratulate them on their success, but I don't agree with the way they did it.

[This message has been edited by Jon A (edited 01-26-2002).]