Hi guys (and gals),
I've been shooting for a few years now including military competition shooting in the Australian Army.

A couple of years ago I purchased my first rifle, a Weatherby Vanguard Varmint in .308. It shoots great (1 MOA) and I hope I can improve it even more with a new tactical thumb hole stock, new F class x20 scope and later a 26" match barrel.

I'm very keen in getting into long range shooting, realistically 800-900m max for his caliber, I would also like to do it with the above mentioned rifle.

I have just recently started reloading and I have already tried out my first batch of reloaded ammo.
Unfortunately I was quite disappointed with the first batch. With one of the low powder loads I got a .5 inch three round group a 100m, but that was the only decent small group out of the whole batch, I think even the .5 inch was a fluke.
Any ideas what I might be doing wrong....maybe I need to weigh my cases, deburr them properly........eventually I'll get it right.

Any ideas or tips on the best way of finding the best load for my rifle would be appreciated.

Cheers

Attila

Welcome to the group. I think we would like to know what components you used to start with. I'd start with some Lapua brass and Sierra or Berger bullets. Do a search here and in favorite loads there is a wealth of info. Good luck with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob1SG:
I'd start with some Lapua brass and Sierra or Berger bullets.

1SG hit the nail on the head. Medium burning powders will serve you best, and 4895 is a good place to start.

You didn't say what bullets you were loading, but there can be a significant accuracy advantage using match grade bullets like the Sierra MK, Lapua or Hornady match bullets. I'll agree on med. burn rate powders. IMR4895 has always been a accuracy std. powder. Try RL15 or VV140/150 as well.

There are so many variables involved with good shooting, it could take a book written right here to cover them all. But, we'll try...

Use good brass. The real aficionados use Lapua, Norma or other super-quality brass. They weigh each one and set aside those that fall into or out of a tolerance they specify. They usually just neck-size the brass to keep from work-hardening it. They scrape the carbon from the primer pocket, trim to length, chamfer the casemouth both inside and out, uniform the flash hole, uniform the primer pocket and chamfer the inside of the flash hole from inside the case.

Bullets are match bullets, like Sierra MatchKings or other premium bullet. I use only 180-grain HPBT MatchKings in my 300WSM. Real accuracy nuts weigh them (+/- 0.10-grain), measure them with a Sinclair comparator to get each one they load to be the exact same length (+/- 0.001-inch) from base to ogive and maybe even trim the mep-lat with a Sinclair mep-lat trimmer, as I do.

I use either Hodgdon H4831SC or Alliant RL-22 powders in my 300WSM loads. I measure my charges with a digital scale and trickle them up to exactly the charge I want with a Redding trickler. Buy your powder in eight-pound jugs. You'll have enough to load several hundred rounds and they will all be from the same lot, ensuring consistency in ignition speed, et cetera.

Primers are best to come from the same lot. Buy a 5,000-count case of them; you'll have enough of the same batch to last a lifetime. I prime with a Lee Auto-prime, a tool in use worldwide. Sinclair makes one that does the same job at five times the price, but you get the Sinclair name and the soulful satisfaction you are using an expensive priming tool.

Dies are to be precision dies, like Forster or Redding Type S with a micrometer screwtop for seating the bullet. I suppose RCBS makes precision dies, but I don't have any. There are multiple tools to ensure repetitive seating depth of both the bullet and the primer, concentricity, et cetera. You can spend all the money you want on any number of tools out there, all in an effort to get repetitive results before and after the bullet is fired.

You'll want your rifle to headspace the cartridge to no more than .002 inches when the bolt is locked in and ready to fire. Mine is and I get quarter-minute results if I really try to shoot a good group, and under half-minute results if I ain't such a stickler in my execution of the shot.

Accurate shooting is more about doing the same thing over and over again once you find what really works to get the bullets printing very near or right into the hole made by the last shot than it is about fancy equipment, but good equipment helps, too.

Then there is the old adage: Practice, practice, practice...

quote:

Originally posted by AFA82:
I have just recently started reloading, and I have already tried out my first batch of reloaded ammo.
Unfortunately, I was quite disappointed with the first batch. With one of the low-powder loads I got a 0.5 inch three-round group a 100m, but that was the only decent small group out of the whole batch; I think even the .5 inch was a fluke.
Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? ...maybe I need to weigh my cases, deburr them properly...? ...eventually I'll get it right.

Any ideas or tips on the best way of finding the best load for my rifle would be appreciated.

Try a copy of Glen Zediker's "Handloading for Competition." He doesn't speak the same brand of English as you do, but then he doesn't speak anyone's brand of English. Beyond that, he'll give you a consideration or two.
.

Thanks for the speedy replies guys.
All my gear is RCBS including the dies. I use Hornady 168 BTHP match projectiles, ADI 2206 powder (medium burn rate) and Fed. GM210M primers.
The brass I use is pre-fired Federals that i've shot over the years before getting into reloading, mind you with my first batch I used a mixture of Highland and Fed. brass (Highland is an Australian brand that imports ammunition from Serbia and re-lables it).
According to my ADI handbook, the min load in 39.5gr and the max is 43.7gr.
I loaded 3 x 20 rounds, 20 rounds of 40gr, 20 of 41gr and 20 of 42gr. The 40gr ammo had the same POI as the commercial ammo I had with me and the first 2 groups were .5moa. After that the groups never shrunk below 1MOA with 2, 2.5 MOA with the rest of the batch.

From what I've read so far, the mistakes I think I made with the first batch was not trimming them, not deburring everyone and mixing the brass. Could these three things contribute to inconsistent groups?

What's involved in uniforming the primer pocket? I just debur the inside and outside of the flash hole and clean as much of the crud out of the primer pocket as possible.
Plus is it vital for accuracy to chamfer the neck?

1. As long as the case length is less than the maximum trim length, you don't need trim it.

2. Uniforming the primer pocket is as simple as getting a primer pocket uniformer, sticking it into the primer pocket and turning it by hand. Flash hole deburring uses a different tool but is also done by hand. If you get premium brass like Hornady custom brass, Nosler premium brass, etc., these operations will already be done for you. In reality, they probably don't make much of a difference in accuracy.

3. Using different brands of brass will markedly affect accuracy for the worse. Federal brass is fine; I've used a bunch of it.

4. My 308 Winchester load utilizes IMR 4064 powder, Federal GM210M primers and 168 gr. match bullets. The match bullets I use are generally Sierra or Berger. Nosler makes excellent match bullets as well. Years ago I tried Hornady match bullets and wasn't too impressed with them but in the last few years, I've been very impressed with their accuracy as well.

5. I quit cleaning primer pockets years ago. As long as there isn't case cleaning media crammed into it, I don't think cleaning out a tiny bit of ash makes any difference at all.

6. Pick your powder de jour. Load cartridges with incremental powder charges. For a 308 Win. cartridge, I would load 3 cartridges with each load and increase the load in 0.5 to 1 gain increments. The 0.5 grain increments would be used when approaching the upper end of the load range. You will notice that the groups will start out big, will get smaller and then will start getting larger again. Pick the load where the groups are smallest.

I do a lot of the things folk have discussed here - trim cases and de-burr after every firing, uniform primer pockets after each firing, de-burr flash holes on new or once-fired brass, and I'm convinced it all helps. But there are a couple of other considerations that also definitely help.
Firstly, if you're using a full length sizer die, set it up to partial full-length size. In other words, it should size the neck down to 1 or 2mm from the shoulder, but it should NOT touch the shoulder. That will give you a zero headspace condition, which is great, as long as your bolt closes without difficulty. If not, adjust the sizer die down 1/4 turn at a time.
Redding / Forster competition seating dies help ensure concentricity, but even then I seat the bullet halfway, turn the cartridge 180 degrees in the shellholder, then seat all the way.
Regarding load development. I start at the minimum and load up batches of 3, in 1/2 grain increments. I load to the longest OAL my magazine can handle, without touching the lands. These I fire over a chronograph, watching for signs of pressure, and watching for the point of diminishing returns. Inputting your data into an Excel graph shows you this clearly. That point of diminishing return is my rifle's max load. I'll pick a load just below that max (I use extreme spread and group size as criteria). I then load up batches of 3 in that chosen load, reducing OAL by 1/2mm on each batch. These I shoot for groups, and the best group is my load. Works for me.

When you say OAL is that the measurement between the barrel and the projectile before they touch? If so, why do you vary that? I was under the impression that the closer to the barrel (practically touching) the better.

Cheers

AFA82,

Apologies. By OAL, I mean overall length of the cartridge, from case head to bullet tip. It can be measured by simply applying a vernier, but this can be erratic, due to slight variations / deformities on the bullet tips. Better to use a comparator, which measures from case head to ogive (The point on the bullet which will actually engage the rifling).

Rifles differ. Some may like the bullet to lightly engage the rifling, some like a 'jump' to the lands. This is why I start long, and reduce OAL in small increments, until I find the 'sweet spot' that my rifle likes.

Thanks for the info Rikki.
So I assume the logical steps would be to find the correct load first and then play with the OAL (finding the correct load with the bullet engaging the rifling).

quote:

Originally posted by AFA82:
When you say OAL is that the measurement between the barrel and the projectile before they touch? If so, why do you vary that? I was under the impression that the closer to the barrel (practically touching) the better.

Cheers

Hello and welcome!!

The answer to your above question is, not always.

Some bullets/loads like to be INTO the lands, some AT the lands, and others, OFF the lands with varying distances. You simply have to play with it.

I like to start loading with the bullet AT the lands or into the lands by .001 or so. That way, you only go one direction when testing best seating depth....deeper.

IMR4064 is another excellent powder choice if it is available.

Midwayusa.com has Lapua brass on sale right now.

quote:

Originally posted by AFA82:
Thanks for the info Rikki.
So I assume the logical steps would be to find the correct load first and then play with the OAL (finding the correct load with the bullet engaging the rifling).

That's what I do. I load to the longest my mag will accept & feed, as long as the bullet isn't touching lands. Once you get a powder/bullet/primer copmbo that looks promising, then you can move the OAL in & out to fine tune.
FWIW, you are shooting too many rounds per powder change. I load 5 of each charge wt. & shoot then for groups @ 100. THe promising ones get shot @ 200, the really good ones get shot @ 300. Then you can start tweeking the load by OAL & even switching primers.

I just got back from the range with some interesting results.
I just had a trigger job done so I was interested to see how the factory ammo (the Highland ammo I mentioned before) would shoot. To my surprise, at 100m, I got .3 - .4 inch three round groups (this is with 168gr HPBT hunting ammo) well three groups out of five anyway.
After all this I tried my new reloaded ammo, which this time I deburred and trimmed properly, weighed and sorted accordingly, had the loads .5 grains apart (starting low all the way to max in the manual) and I sat the projectiles to just touch the rifling.
Unfortunately I had the same inconsistency as before, so I am now at a loss because the reloaded ammo is supposed to be better quality due to the components Im using (match bullets, premium powder and good primers)
I think the next thing I will try is to set the projectile the same depth as this factory ammo and try to replicate it as much as possible...........any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong?


Cheers

I find 2206 a bit too fast for my 308 with 168 gn projectiles. It prefers 2208 (Varget in the USA) which has a similar burning rate to 4064 which has also been recommended here. My 308 likes 44 gn (2659 fps) and 46 gn (2728 fps)with the same Hornady bullet as you are using. This is almost identical to the data in the ADI book. Both these loads are sub 0.5 MOA all day in a custom Sako rifle. I use CCI BR2 primers but others have worked just as well. I am using ADI cases but I have carefully prepared and selected them. Lapua cases are available by mail from Queensland and are very consistent if you don't want to go to the trouble of primer pocket uniforming etc etc.

quote:

Originally posted by AFA82:
any thoughts on what I might be doing wrong?


Cheers

Have you checked your brass and final loads for runout?

I don't have the means to check runout (I presume thats checking whether the bullet is in the case straight), but I seat the projectile half way then rotate 180 deg and seat all the way.
I might start from scratch with new brass and the 2208 powder

quote:

Originally posted by AFA82:
I don't have the means to check runout....

Roll your fired brass, sized brass, and loaded rounds across a flat surface (glass-topped table is good). Any detectable wobble indicates runout.
.

In 60 years of reloading, I've come to some basics that seem to work well for accuracy, generally speaking.

Brass: I sort brass by weight. I deburr the primer flash holes inside, and ream primer pockets. For target rifles with tight neck chambers, I outside neck turn cases. For regular chambers, I don't turn necks. But, I've had good luck with Winchester brass being fairly uniform in the necks without turning them, so I use a lot of Winchester brass, as well as RWS and Norma.

In the loading process, I seat primers with a Sinclair single seater. I quit using the Lee Multi tool. I throw powder with a measure a few tenths light, and trickle up to the exact weight. I think the biggest single thing I've done to achieve excellent accuracy is to use Wilson straight line seaters. Using these fine seaters, I do not have to worry about bullet alignment and runout. The seater gets the bullets seated straight with no runout, and I attribute much of the good accuracy to these seaters. For seating depth, I start off with bullets .010 off the lands and go from there, either direction as required to get best accuracy.

But, you must have a good rifle, with a good barrel, bedded correctly, and a good trigger. If the barrel isn't lapped by the barrel maker, I lap the barrel to smooth out tool marks. And, the scope must be good too. I do my own trigger jobs too to get PERFECT breaks, and pull weights around 1 pound, or less for target rifles.
Bench technique is where it's at when shooting. I work VERY hard at my shooting technique; breathing, hold, sight picture, trigger squeeze, and follow through.

It's up to you to start with a reasonable approach with a load, the right powder, bullet and primer.


Don

Thanks for the tips guys, I checked some of the rounds for wobble on my table but then again how accurately can you judge it by doing that.
I'll start again with new brass and powder and see how I go.
Once again, thanks for the tips guys/gals

Cheers

Attila

quote:

Originally posted by AFA82:
...I checked some of the rounds for wobble on my table, but then again how accurately can you judge it by doing that?

Wobble becomes detectable at about 0.003" runout. More than that will affect accuracy in a factory-chambered gun.

For where you are and where you want to be, I will again suggest the Zediker book for you. It will tell you everything you are asking about and a lot more to boot. Moreover, you will know why you are taking the actions discussed. It is available from Sinclair:

www.sinclairintl.com

Ask them to include a catalog. They are a source for excellent equipment (including their runout indicator), and ship internationally.
.

Thanks, I just ordered the book from Sinclair.

AFA82,

You are to be complimented on your efforts to improve your rifle. At some point the rifle itself or as DMB writes shooting technique might provide the greatest benefits.

Here is part of what DMB wrote above:

"But, you must have a good rifle, with a good barrel, bedded correctly, and a good trigger. If the barrel isn't lapped by the barrel maker, I lap the barrel to smooth out tool marks. And, the scope must be good too. I do my own trigger jobs too to get PERFECT breaks, and pull weights around 1 pound, or less for target rifles.

Bench technique is where it's at when shooting. I work VERY hard at my shooting technique; breathing, hold, sight picture, trigger squeeze, and follow through. "

Well its been some time but I finally got my rifle back.
The old Weatherby Vanguard Varmint now has a 26" MAB 1 in 10" twist heavy match barrel (Australian brand), one pound match trigger,
T Manners "T1" compsoite stock fully pillar bedded and floated, and a LYNX 20x milspec scope (not a cheapie) sitting on a piccatinny rail.

I recently finished reading Zediker's book. Wow he really loves his reloading, its insanely detailed and a very informative read. I highly recommend it to anyone serious about accurate shooting/reloading.
I've learnt alot about reloading recently and relised that you CANNOT compromise on qaulity!
I purchased a couple of hundred Lapua cases, ADI AR2208 powder (Varget), a few boxes of 168 SMK's, and a shooting chrony.
After a few short test loads I found my potential "accurate" load.
45.2 grains of AR2208 at an average of 2840 fps. Pretty much the fastest load without pressure signs (46 grains is the max according to the ADI book and it showed the same velocity as 45 grains so I figured I reached the max attainable speed).
I havn't done extended grouping with this load (this weekend hopefully if the wind dies down) but at 100 yards I did get a few .25" three round groups and none over .9"

I realised that to get true potential from quality reload ammunition, you also need a qaulity rifle to keep consistant.
This weekend I'll see how this ammo performs out to 800 yards. I'm hoping that I'll be able to accurately plot my trajectory (100 yard increments) for a good range card.

Thanks for the help guys

Congratulations Grasshopper! Learning is best if performed in a linear direction and your thread has demonstrated this. Outstanding! I "assume" you've provided for proper break-in of your new barrel

Best of luck this weekend & do post up for us.

Thanks mate.
You assumed right! First 10 rounds I cleaned with solvent after every shot. Then every third shot for 20 rounds, then every 5 shots until now. I've put about 60 rounds through it so far.
Maybe I'm being over cautious but its no big deal because I'm used to cleaning my rifles a fair bit.
I'll keep you guys updated.
Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by AFA82: (truncated for brevity)
After a few short test loads I found my potential "accurate" load.
45.2 grains of AR2208 at an average of 2840 fps. Pretty much the fastest load without pressure signs (46 grains is the max according to the ADI book and it showed the same velocity as 45 grains so I figured I reached the max attainable speed).
I havn't done extended grouping with this load (this weekend hopefully if the wind dies down) but at 100 yards I did get a few .25" three round groups and none over .9"

I realised that to get true potential from quality reload ammunition, you also need a qaulity rifle to keep consistant.
This weekend I'll see how this ammo performs out to 800 yards. I'm hoping that I'll be able to accurately plot my trajectory (100 yard increments) for a good range card.

Thanks for the help guys

Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting the question. Your odyssey is providing an education for me, as well.

I am glad to see you got a chronograph. The average velocity is less important than the variation in velocity between shots. It will help to tell your loading consistency.

Your average of 2840 fps is important to figure the exterior ballistics (mainly concerned with bullet drop in flight), that will help explain any vertical dimension to your groups.

Internal ballistics are another matter. What do you know about harmonic vibrations of your barrel between the time of ignition and the time the bullet leaves the barrel? If the bullet leaves the barrel at the point in time when the muzzle is moving its slowest, the exit direction will be most consistent. If I say any more about the subject, I will be in "over my head", so leave it to you to read in the excellent books on the subject. I have seen a couple of threads that refer to finding the "sweet spot" in a barrel, and if I can find the web addresses, I will post them later. In the meantime, I suggest you try a lower velocity, as most guns seem to "like" a little bit lower velocity than the maximum.

In the meantime, if none of the excellent advisors on this forum get to you soon, do a web search on the phrases "Barrel Whip" and "Barrel Harmonic Vibration" or "Internal Ballistics"

Loading for accuracy at distance is the most challenging and rewarding of the shooting sports. You have a lifetime of fun ahead of you (and I mean that in both senses, the sincere as well as the sarcastic, but only with the best of wishes).

Good luck. Good shooting.

Lost Sheep

Well I went out to the property and had a fun day of shooting. The load seems to be working good with a few inconsistances, but I'm putting that down to my shooting (and a lack of a benchrest etc...)

At 300 yards the best group I got was about 1.4" and at 700 yards roughly about 6.5".
While I'm not disappointed with the results (I now have a rough idea of my fall of shot), I really think that I can improve on my reloads. After reading your post Lost Sheep, I researched the average velocity of about half a dozen match grade factory rounds and discovered that none of them exceeded 2750fps. Maybe I have over-done my loads a bit.

I'm confident in the equipement (projectiles, brass etc) but I think it would be wise to properly find the correct load, not just the max velocity and running with that.

Something along these lines: http://www.shootingsoftware.com/reloadingtips.htm

According to my powder manual (ADI), 42 grains is min@2520fps and 46 grains is max@2731fps. Now I have well and truely exceed that max velocity with average for my 45.2 grains @ over 2800fps (I don't know....is that a bad thing? probably a bit high on the pressure side).
On the above web site it also goes into barrel harmonics (Thanks for enlightening me Lost Sheep) and the obvious association between that and load development, or finding that "sweet spot".

The next thing on the agenda is starting with a fairly low load (42.6 maybe) and stepping it up by .2 grains until about 45 grains (I know the velocity max's out around there with my set up) and trying to determine the so called "sweet spot".

I'll keep you guys posted, and of course any more tips on load development etc is very much appreciated.

Cheers

Well its been a while but my quest for accuracy has been very educational to say the least. The barrel is well and truly worn in and all my range time is paying off.
I've settled on:

Lapua 185gr scenars
Lapua cases
Viht V540 powder
Fed. 210M primers

I use 41.3grs of V540 that produce a MV of 2475fps and is fairly consistant (Pretty much a clone of the Lapua loaded ammo for when I won't be able to reload but buy it already loaded).

This rifle and ammo combination allows me to place 5 rounds into a .50 inch (or just under) group (3 round groups roughly about .250 - .40 inchs).

I've recently replaced the scope to a Nightforce NXS 3.5 - 15 x 50. This has made a big difference to shooting comfort and just general usability compared to the LYNX scope. Its clearer, sharper and dead on accurate with elevation and windage adjustments (just as well considering it cost twice as much).

This set up has turned out to be a great
F class comp. and a great varmint/hunting rifle.

I've included a few photo's.

Go over to 6mmbr.com. Thereis a great write-up on the 308. ALSO look at the tech tips (from froggy) for info on loading the 308. SUPER INFO!