Hello - I am new to this forum - if I break any protocols - please be gentle with me! Having said I am hoping to get help from the membership here.

I recently came into a Ruger#3 in a 30-40. In researching the net and books for loads I came across a website that said an older Hodgdon manual (#25 I think) had data specifically for the stronger #3. They have since dropped this from their load data. I don't know what date that manual id from.

So - does anyone out there either have access to this older manual and could send me the load data in it for the #3, or, even better yet, actually load for the #3 in 30-40? If they will shoot, my interest was in either a 150 or 165 gr. bullets.

BTW I did call Hodgdon. The person I spoke to was not overly enthusiastic about helping me. He gave me some load ranges for just H414. These seemed a little over case capacity - i.e., around 52 or 53 gr for the 150 bullet (around 2800 ft/s) and a couple grains less for the 165 (around 2600 ft/s). Maybe I should call again and hope for someone else.

I have posted this request on another board (if it looks familiar - Reloader's Forum). I have got 3 responses so far and they have been helpful - but not the Hodgdon data I was looking for.

Thanks ahead of time for your help and considered opinions

I had a Libety # 3 30-40 for many years. I finally settled on the use of H-414 and 150 or 165 grain flat base spire points for whitetail. My # 25 manual showing heavy Krag loads for the Ruger only, shows a max load of 53 grains at 2802 fps for the 150 and 51 grains @ 2625 for the 165s. They told you right.

N.S. Sherlock:
Thank you for having a #25 manual and your help! Can you tell me if #25 lists any other powders - such as either of the 4350s?

oops, I meant just H4350

quote:

Originally posted by mtntrekker:
Hello - I am new to this forum - if I break any protocols - please be gentle with me! Having said I am hoping to get help from the membership here.

I recently came into a Ruger#3 in a 30-40. In researching the net and books for loads I came across a website that said an older Hodgdon manual (#25 I think) had data specifically for the stronger #3. They have since dropped this from their load data. I don't know what date that manual id from.

So - does anyone out there either have access to this older manual and could send me the load data in it for the #3, or, even better yet, actually load for the #3 in 30-40? If they will shoot, my interest was in either a 150 or 165 gr. bullets.

BTW I did call Hodgdon. The person I spoke to was not overly enthusiastic about helping me. He gave me some load ranges for just H414. These seemed a little over case capacity - i.e., around 52 or 53 gr for the 150 bullet (around 2800 ft/s) and a couple grains less for the 165 (around 2600 ft/s). Maybe I should call again and hope for someone else.

I have posted this request on another board (if it looks familiar - Reloader's Forum). I have got 3 responses so far and they have been helpful - but not the Hodgdon data I was looking for.

Thanks ahead of time for your help and considered opinions

I have a No. 3 in .30/40 for which I load ammo. One load which has proven very accurate is the Hornady 170-grain .30/30 bullet with 50 grains of IMR 4350, MV 2500 FPS (see below).

A very powerful load I worked up to from 50 grains of IMR 4350 with the 200-grain Nosler Partiton ended up at 53 grains, and gives an average velocity at 10' from the muzzle of 2680 FPS. It shoots the 200 grain Sierra at the same speed as well. Accurate with either bullet!

A load I got from Bob Hagel consists of the 220-grain Hornady round-nose and 46 grains of WW 760. MV of this load is over 2400 FPS, and it is very accurate as well.

All these loads except for the one using the 170-grain .30/30 bullet are pretty warm, and must be approached with caution!!If you have some H205 powder, you can use it instead of IMR 4350 in the 200-grain bullet load, and it will duplicate the performance with identical charges, but at lower pressures. I switched to IMR 4350 when I ran out of H205!
I have that Hodgdon data some place around here, but never found it to be particularly useful.

Good luck. The #3 Ruger 30/40's are great guns!!

I have a regular 30/40 Krag bolt action...

25 grains of SR 4759 for any bullet weight from 180 to 220 is my standard load.. and that about duplicates the original loads in the Krag...

Thank you all for the welcome. My reply is for El Deguello:

Your load for the 170 gr seems in line with the Hodgdon data as I believe there is a certain similarity between H414 and H4350. (I was actually think of shooting 165 gr Hornady Interloks) - Thanks.

However, is there a typo on your 200 gr load? You are achieving about what I get for the 200 gr NP out of my '06 - and that's a larger case and a longer barrel (Ruger #1B - 26"), and a larger load. If I knew how to do that one raised eyebrow look - I would be doing that now.

I also have some Varget which shoots very well in another gun I have (7mm-08). Do you think that is worth trying starting at say 10% below 308 loads - or do you think its too fast? (it seems the 308 has a similar case capacity). I don't think this powder was around when those older manuals came out.

Thanks again to all

Doug in Montana

Hello again. My manual lists H4350 with the 200 grain bullets starting at 44 grains @ 2018 fps to 47grains @ 2344 fps(max) and 42 to 45 grains for the 220/225 @ 1947 fps to 2232 fps. My gun had a "good" tight chamber and my load was 52 grains of H414 for the 150s. Factory WW 180s did very well for me for accuracy and small to medium whitetail killing.

Other than recoil reduction, I see no reason for using light bullets in the Crag. Even with warm loads the Crag will never have the trajectory of the 30-06, so the way I see it one should take advantage of that long neck/throat and 200 or 220 grain bullets. There isn't much on four feet that can't be taken with a 200/220 grain 30 calibre pill.

quote:

Originally posted by mtntrekker:
Thank you all for the welcome. My reply is for El Deguello:

Your load for the 170 gr seems in line with the Hodgdon data as I believe there is a certain similarity between H414 and H4350. (I was actually think of shooting 165 gr Hornady Interloks) - Thanks.

However, is there a typo on your 200 gr load? You are achieving about what I get for the 200 gr NP out of my '06 - and that's a larger case and a longer barrel (Ruger #1B - 26"), and a larger load. If I knew how to do that one raised eyebrow look - I would be doing that now.

I also have some Varget which shoots very well in another gun I have (7mm-08). Do you think that is worth trying starting at say 10% below 308 loads - or do you think its too fast? (it seems the 308 has a similar case capacity). I don't think this powder was around when those older manuals came out.

Thanks again to all

Doug in Montana

Nope! No typo at all. That 200-grain load started out as a load using Hodgdon H205, which for some reason would give ballistics in a .30-caliber very much the same as IMR 4350 does with identical charges, but with significantly less pressure. When I ran out of H205, I decided to try IMR 4350 with the 200 grain bullet. I started out with 46 grains, and worked up in 0.5-grain increments, and never did get any signs of excessive pressurtes-I ran out of case space before that happened. Turned out that 53 grains of IMR 4350 gave the same V results as I had been getting from H205-right in the vicinity of 2680 FPS with both Nosler and Sierra 200-grain bullets. However, since ALL GUNS ARE INDIVIDUALS, I will not guarantee that your No. 3 will handle such a load. As always, You have to work up to find out, and quit if things start getting too hot. It could be that I had a very slow can of IMR 4350! I took that load elk hunting once, but don't use it routinely. I generally use that .30/30 bullet load for deer hunting, as it does not mess up a lot of meat.

If you compare the case capacity to the mouth on the .308, .30/40 Krag, and .30/'06 you will see that the .30/40 holds significantly more powder than a .308 case, and nearly as much as a .30/'06. In addition, WW .30/40 brass is very strong-probably stronger than most .30/'06 brass.

If you look at the results P.O. Ackley and others were getting years ago from the .30/40 Improved in Enfield P14 actions, you will see that the .30/40 Improved is in the same ballistic class as the .300 H&H Magnum! Yes, it is surprising!

Yes, H414 is very much like IMR 4350, and almost identical to WW 760. I'm sure you could substitute H414 for Bob Hagel's WW 760 .30/40 loads, starting below max., of course.

I have never used Varget, so cannot comment on that powder.

Here are Bob Hagel's Ruger No. 3 .30/40 Krag loads published in RIFLE Magazine #48, Nov-Dec 1976.

125 grain Sierra 50 gr IMR 3031 MV 3238 FPS
150 Gr Nosler Part. 59 gr WW 760 MV 2991 FPS
165 gr Speer 57 gr WW 760 MV 2886 FPS
200 gr Nos Part(old)52 gr WW 760 MV 2604 FPS
220 gr Horn RN 51 gr WW 760 MV 2469 FPS

These are all top loads, and naturally have to be approached from below. But please note how close that 200-grain load with WW 760 is to the IMR 4350 load I used. The two powders are comparable, but it seems to me that ball powders, such as WW760, have a tendency for pressures to jump significantly once the pressure balance point has been passed. MUCH WORSE than IMR type powders do......

El Deguello:

Thank you so much for that data set, especially Bob Hagel's. I had heard of that old article and was going to call Prescott AZ and see if they could send me a photocopy - I still may to read what he said.

Before I said I would be doing that one eyebrow look. But now I feel more like dropping my jaw! Looking at several reload manuals, those are clearly 30-06 velocities. My main aim, apart from the history of the 30/40 Krag, was to get a smaller 30 calibre rifle than my #1B. If they had made a 1A in a 308, that would have been my first choice - but I never found one (probably never made many if any), so I figured this would be a good, fun route to go, even if it was (I thought) a bit slower. But what you have shown here is impressive.

I am not sure I am going on an expedition to find just how hot a load I can develop. I am more of the ilk of loading down a bit, especially if groups improve. Too much is made of 50, or even 100 ft/sec here or there. Slower bullets kill quite well as long as you know where they're going.

Well, when I get my dies next week, then I can put my two bits-worth in.

Thank you all for the help. I have enjoyed browsing this forum!

quote:

I am not sure I am going on an expedition to find just how hot a load I can develop. I am more of the ilk of loading down a bit, especially if groups improve. Too much is made of 50, or even 100 ft/sec here or there. Slower bullets kill quite well as long as you know where they're going.

You are absolutely right, and I have not loaded any more of those hot 200-grain loads in the past 10 years or so, and probably won't, because as you say, too much is often made of 50 to 100 extra FPS.

I once loaded up some of those same 200-grain bullets in .303 British for a friend who had a No. 5 Jungle Carbine. The most accurate load (yes, the .308's shot well in his .303!) turned out to have a MV of 2100 FPS. Despite this low MV, that load did a great job on big Montana mule deer.

I have had excellent accuracy in several ".303" size bores with .308" bullets- in 7.62X39mm, .303 Brit., and 7.65X53mm Argentine. Am about to start working up a load for a 7.62X54R Mosin-Nagant. Will try .308", .311", and .314" bullets. This rifle has a land diameter close to .300, but the groove is .314". Should be interesting to see what happens with different bullet diameters. May end up having to use cast bullets, as there aren't any jacketed .314" bullets on the market, to my knowledge. I have a few 185-grain .314" FMJBT's I pulled from some Argentine 7.65X53mm military ammo.


Good luck with your .30/40!

(Maybe ten years ago, I saw an ad for a .30/40 Ruger No. 1A, so I guess there were perhaps a few such rifles made up, maybe a special run for some dealer?? I'd sure like one, but no doubt they'd cost a fortune these days!)

Maybe ten years ago, I saw an ad for a .30/40 Ruger No. 1A, so I guess there were perhaps a few such rifles made up, maybe a special run for some dealer?? I'd sure like one, but no doubt they'd cost a fortune these days!

quote:

Yes, I knew a guy a few years back who, I thought, had a #1A in a 308 - but I could never find one. Its seems like an obvious choice for that rifle, but Ruger has the reputation of not always doing the obvious, don't they?

I have always had a sweet spot for the 303 enfileds. As a mid-teenager, I shot plenty of surplus enfields when I live in England for awhile - my first center-fire rifle. (I think its was so long ago I could have sworn I spotted a couple of mastadons!). We would shoot peep sights at 200 and 500 yds with military ammo. Never got to shoot a No.5, though. They look like fun.

Thanks again for your help

The No. 5's are indeed fun-probably the closest thing to a sporting rifle ever made for military issue.

I heard that the reason why so few No. 1's were ever made in .308 Win. was that when the No. 1 was first introduced, they did chamber some in .308, and they could never get acceptable accuracy - something about vertical stringing, if I remember correctly.

But recently, there have been some No. 1's made in .308, and I don't know which model. The 1B would be on the heavy side for a .308. I have had good luck with No. 1A's in 7X57mm, however.

Hodgdons Data manual #25
30/40Krag Heavy Loads For Ruger Only
page 225

150 gr H414-51-53 grs, H380 48-50, BL-C244-46, H33544-46, H4895-43-45,H322-40-42

165 gr H414-49-51,H380-46-48,BL-C2-42-44, H335-42-44, H4895-41-43

thnak you all for your help! (and the feeling of being welcome here) Thanks swheeler for the data from #25 - just what I was lookng for!

quote:

I have had good luck with No. 1A's in 7X57mm

I have dithered about a 1A in a 7x57 for long enough now to see the price go up quite a bit (I am good at dithering). In the end I settled on a 7mm-08. As everyone knows, in the US guns either come in short (308-length) or long (30-06-length) actions, if you want new. The 7x57 is too long for short, so comes in a long action (Ruger), so might as well have a 280. Also, if I was going to get a 7x57, designed by Paul Mauser himself, figured I should have a mauser action - not to mention many of them have throats as long as the Holland tunnel for the old 174's. So - I settled on the 7mm-08 in a Tikka synthetic light - love it! It may not be controlled feed - but it shots twice a good as I do and weights only 2 oz more than the Winch classic compact with a 20" bbl (oops I got one of those too - don't tell my wife).
Still, those 1A's in 7x57 are sweet!

Doug in Montana

quote:

As everyone knows, in the US guns either come in short (308-length) or long (30-06-length) actions, if you want new. The 7x57 is too long for short, so comes in a long action (Ruger), so might as well have a 280. Also, if I was going to get a 7x57, designed by Paul Mauser himself, figured I should have a mauser action - not to mention many of them have throats as long as the Holland tunnel for the old 174's.

BUT NOT a Ruger No.1! They are all the same length, and any cartridge up to a .500 Nitro will fit in one!

Nosler 15 BT, 44.0 gr. 4895. Shoots through deer at any angle.

Modern, pressure tested load data is available for 150, 180, and 220 gn bullets in the current Lyman book. Winchester (at Hodgdon's site) also has pressure tested data for for 180 and 220 gn bullets.

Being a No.1 in disguise, the No.3 is a very strong and safe action. Since the .30-40 and the .308 have similar case capacities, you can likely get by using any .308 starting load. I would not try to get full power .308 loads to go in a .30-40, though. The chamber throats are different, and the cases are different in shape, so the pressures can't be the same, and your brass/chamber combination may not take well to high pressures.