Please share your experience on reloading belted magnums. I've heard opinions in favor and against on the topic and am curious to hear what you think. Issues like headspace control, brass life, case head separations, overall accuracy, etc. are some of the main areas I would like to see addressed. Also, does the type of action affect how the belted mags perform in regards to the issues above?

Nebraska,

Firstly, as general answer, I think comparing belted and rimless is like comparing the accuracy of 270 and 280 or an M70 and Rem 700 etc. in that individual rifles, lots of brass and so on will have the most effect.

In short, it is not an issue.

But for the sake of the discussion my findings have been as follows.

With accuracy, I have had many barrels on bench style guns in 270 and 300 Winchester. If I was to split hairs, the 300 Win has been more accurate. However I would put that down to having had more barrel twists available in 30 caliber to play with than is the case with 270. I have also had the 7mm Rem on a bench guns and it was the same as the 270. But it could be no other way since all the loads were either neck sized only or full lenght sized so that there was about .003" headspace and this headspace was being controlled by the shoulder for both 270 and the belted calibers.

Case life. For me, all the same and case design completely overriden by loads. My longest case life has always been the 375, but then my loads in 375 have been at lower pressures than for 270 or 6mm/06.

The ony problem I have had with belted brass was using Norma brass many years ago, and it maybe the same today. Norma belted cases don't (or did not) have the solid head extend up past the top of the belt. Some individual sizing dies will not quite pick up the section of the case just in front of the belt. This can make it difficult to resize so as to have a couple of thou headspace sicne the section of brass just in front of the belt prevents it if the die does not pick up that section of the case. This will often give a very small difference in point of impact as compared to cases that have some slop in the chamber. As well, some rifles will shoot better when the case has a bit of slop.

The one area where I favour belted brass is with very reduced loads, which I have always used a lot of. With rimless cases, the headspace will grow with each shot, but not so with belted cases.

So in my case, if given a choice of belted or rimless and assuming equal case cpacity, I would probably take belted and that would be very influenced by using very reduced loads.

As an example I am currently on the big case capacity 416 "thing" and my choice there is for the 416 Wby and that is because of the belt and my intention to use many very reduced loads. With the Rigby, I could after some shots neck it back up to 50 and then run it through the die and that would make a little shoulder just in front of the normal shoulder and return things to normal headspace but I would need to fire a full load to fireform the case. So in this example the rimless Rigby would end up having a shorter case life than the 416 Wby.

Mike

Belted cases are a poor design. The tolerances of a belted chamber are on the plus side for the head to shoulder dimension. Rimless cartridges tolerance in the middle of the chamber dimension.

You can tell they are a problem by an above post with the stuff about sizing the case for feel.

None of the great designers choose belted cases. Not Kalisnakov, Garand, Springfield, Browning nor Mauser. Nope nary a one.

Avoid belted cases if you can unless you just shoot factory loads.

I have been shooting belted magnums(and reloading for them) for over twenty years and have had no problems at all.Case life has been good and accuracy has been 1/2" or better in several of my rifles.

Don,

Again, you don't seem to be able to see out of the window of your own little world.

Since we are talking about reloading, both belted and rimless can advantages and disadvantages, as I outlined in my post.

Don't know why you listed factory ammo as no problem, because in theory that is where the rimless would step ahead in terms of accuracy.

By the way, another plus for rimless is that it is easy to havea rifle chambered for a crush fit on new cases but you can still decide with a resizing die and ground back shellholder if you would likea few thou headspace.

Mike

Reloading a belted magnum isn't any different that reloading any other cartridge!

(And I have been reloading all types of cartridges from .25ACP to .458 Winchester Magnum for over 40 years.)

I have been reloading all types of cartridges since 1953 and I have found that belted cases can be a problem with head separations. This is due to the fundimental design error where the chamber drawing to the shoulder on a belted case is on the plus side only so as to always clear while the cartridge headspaces on the belt.

Check your webs with a feeler gage. Just looking at the outside will not detect it reliabality until it's too late.

Just look at the chamber and cartridge drawings.

It's too bad that the Newton designs did not make it in the market. We are stuck with the British Belts which are the wrong way to do it.

Don,

There are people winning 1000 yard bench matches with belted cases.

There are people who are annealing the necks to keep case life going, so they have had lots of shots.

Given all the trouble you appear to have with belted cases could it be that you are doing something wrong?

Mike

Nebraska,

If you look through the archives you'll see that for the most part the only person on these forums who has any troubles with belted cases is donmartin29. Virtually everyone else will tell you that they are no different than rimless cases to reload. Donmartin29 constantly brings up case head seperation as the reason he doesn't like them, but when it's pointed out to him that this can only happen if you improperly size your cases he still harps on. I also suggest you look at the thread in the Big game forum titles Rifle actions-what to start with? for a little insight into this posters history. He seems to enjoy an argument and is determined to push his opinion even to the point of the ridiculous.

As others have said here, there is no problem reloading belted magnum cases, it's simply not an issue at all.

I have been reloading for the .300 Win. mag for about 12 years with no trouble. I neck size only. My Uncle who was big into belted magnums told me right off to order a neck sizer die and don't look back. I took his advice and have had no trouble.

goneballistic

I have only ever used backed off loads in the 378.

For cast bullets you have a powder in America that is an Accurate arms powder, some sort of name like 5890, can't remember. But if you post on Big Bore or Cast bullet forums some use it there, especially in the 416 Rigby.

The biggest problem area with the 378 is likely to be loads around the 2200 area and for two reasons. With powder I mentioned above and flake shotgun powders (which ignite easily and are very bulky) you won't be able to get that velocity.

If you swithc to powders like 3031 or Varget burn rate hangfires may be the order of the day. The problem with the 378 (and also the 460) is the huge amount of freebore, which causes ignition problems with mid range loads.

However, I would estimate that about 85 grains of Varget would give around 2450 with 300 grainers and would be about 6 or 7 grains below a top load for Varget with 300 grainers. Using 270 grain bullets with the same charge would give similar velocity.

I uses to use 85 grains of 4064 in the 460 with 500 Hornadies and it was a very accurate load that did just over 2000 f/s.

However, for cast bullet shooting 2450 is probably going to be too much speed. Also cast bullets seem to allow more velocity if pressure is lower for a given velocity.

About 85 grains of powders like H4350 or IMR 4350 should do about 2250 with 300 grainers and with low pressure. In theory this would be similar to using around 85 grains of 4064 with 500 grainers in the 460 because a top load of the 4350 powders with a 300 grain in 378 will be around 104 to 106 grains and in the 460 a top load of 4064 for 500 grainers is about 105 grains.

Having said that, I have never tried the slower powders like 4350 type powders with loads that reduced.

Some people also say that loads reduced that much with slower powders can cause strange things such as greatly increased pressures for some unknown reason. My own opinion is that any problem you git with loads like 85 grains of 4350 would be poor accuracy and unburnt powder.

So in summary, 85 grains of Varget should give you good results with 270 grains 300 grains and for the 2400 to 2500 area. The other Accurate Arms powder should be good for the under 2000 loads, although I have never used it as we don't see it in Australia.

It is the 2200 area that will be difficult in the 378.

If recoil is the main isue for reducing loads, you might also like to try about 85 grains of 3031 and 220 Hornady flat noses. This will probably give around the 2600 mark. A top load with 220s and 3031 would be close to 100 grains.

One last thing, with these sorts of reduced loads you often need to play about with them to get top accuracy. The ideal situation is one where you can load at the range.

Hope this helps some.

PS. With reduced loads ignition is always less of a problem with heavier bullets

Mike

[ 08-20-2002, 03:02: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

I agree with all those who "agree" that reloading belted cases is not any different than reloading beltless cases. Case head separation could happen with any case regardless of belt or not, and it even happens with pistol cases.

I haven't been reloading as long as most of you, but when I started reloading for my .338WM, I listened to what you had to say on this subject, and so learned. I neck-size the cases with the die adjusted to the dimension of a fired-once or twice case, and later run those through my rifle's chamber to make sure the fit properly. I also do that with loaded ammo before I go hunting, but after I remove the firing pin from my rifle's bolt.

My rifle is a Ruger M77 MK-II. All I have to do to disassemble the bolt is to remove the bolt from the action, insert a small nail in the hole by the safety lever, then turn the firing pin assembly counterclockwise. That's all there is to it.

From John Wooters "The Complete Book Of Practical Reloading" page 59 on case preparation. "check for split necks and anything even hinting of a weakening of the case body. This may take the form of a shiny ring or partial ring around the case..... It appears most frequently in the belted magnums cases and thos which have been fired in one of the older, rear locking lug rifles or slide action types."

This follows my experiance.

Don -- What do you shoot. I have shot all of them many times, from the super accurate .308, 30-06, .270, and loaded all of them for years. I have never found anything to match my .300 Win in accuracy. All the writers said it had all kinds of problems when it first came out, now after years of 1000 yard championships, they say nothing of those problems. Been loading it for 30 years, problem free, and I load it hot. Once had a problem with a 7mm STW, until I determined the headspace, adjusted my die, problem over. I can't imagine a world without a belted magnum. Just my opinion, but I certainly respect yours also. Good shooting.

[ 08-21-2002, 17:19: Message edited by: phurley ]

Phurley,

I have a .300 Win mag also and it's "accurate". But it's no more accurate than other similar rifles. Accuracy does not depend much upon the cartridge with the advantage being with the smaller ones only because they shake a rifle of given size less.

But the direction this thread was going was not about accuracy.

Do a search on this or any shooting forum about "separations" and you will find topics where this happens. As pointed out above it can happen with any cartridge but belted cases are among the worst offenders. It's the combination of using the belt as headspace control and the frequent hot loading of the belted cases.

If your chamber was cut on the small side of the tolerance then the detremental effect would be minimized. Just check each case inside with a feeler gage.

There is no use for belted cases when the cartridge has an adequate shoulder. So it's of use with the .458 Win and .300 H&H for instance. But these cartridges will always suffer from the lack of headspace control.

Back when the PPC cartridges came out I designed a cartridge that would do (sort of) what the .243 Win does but in .224". I was not the first one to do this of course but I wanted a short, wide cartridge of low aspect ratio. I figured that of the wide cartridges that I could shorten the belted magnums would be available for a long time. That was 20 years ago however. So I made a chamber drawing and a cartridge drawing but the drawings made the case headspace on the shoulder. There was clearance for the belt so it does not touch.

When I sent the drawings out for quote one response called it the finest drawings he had ever seen. I did not do the actual drawings myself I admit but had a friend do them from my sketches who is a engineer. So that rifle has no headspace problems or case separation problems.

The belt on cartridge cases is just a marketing ploy to the uninformed. Roy Weatherby could have used the Newton or Jefferies designs but he knew less of rifles and much of promotion.

This seems to still be the case.

Don -- You shoot a .300 belted magnum, yet you are trying to talk the man out of owning one, because of the separation problem you percieve. I am just trying to get all this straight. Looking at my records reveals only one one case separation with a belted and several with non belted cases. Am I to tell the man not to buy a non-belted case rifle cartridge to shoot. Just another question. Good shooting.

[ 08-22-2002, 00:15: Message edited by: phurley ]

Phurley,

When my 7mm Rem mag bbl wore out I felt the need for another long range rifle. A friend had a very accurate #1 in .300 Win mag so now I have it.

It was the path of least resistance at the time. If I could get one in .30 Newton and get good brass for that far superior cartridge I would. I consider the .30 RUM too big.

It's not that I don't know how to handload a belted case. It's others that I am concerned about.

I have finished my evaluation of how to get the most case life out of the .300 H&H also. It can be done but I wish there were a series of modern cartridges for a 3.3" COL.

I am going to try the 7mm WSM next for long range.