Is there any problem with mixing powder of the same class i.e. (IMR 7828 AND 1MR 7828 SSC). Say at the end of both containers there is a small amount remainng in each can, if these are mixed together,does or will this create a problem?

Not even a good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by ztreh:
Is there any problem with mixing powder of the same class i.e. (IMR 7828 AND 1MR 7828 SSC). Say at the end of both containers there is a small amount remainng in each can, if these are mixed together,does or will this create a problem?

That's a real good question! All powder manufacturers caution to never mix powders. But IMR 7828/IMR7828SSC--- is that mixing powders? Or is it just putting the same powder from two different cans into the same container?? I guess you'd have to ask IMR about this. (Personally, I never even consider put two different lots of the same powder, ie., IMR 4350, into the same can-different lots of the same powder can have different buring rates...... I always keep them separate, even if it means having two or three identical containers each about 1/3 full..........)

While mixing several cannisters of the same powder of different lots thoroughly to make a single "lot" of them is not a bad idea, the different grain sizes of the "regular" vs. "short cut" powders make doing so with them a poor idea. The two versions take up different amounts of room in the case and meter differently. And although they are engineered to provide near identical burning characteristics to one another, I'm not sure how they might react if mixed.

Keep them discrete.

Benchresters do it all the time. You are just making your own powder lot. Work up as usual.

I would not hesitate to do it,

to be one the safe side just reduce your charge weight a bit and check.
I have blended a few powders in my day,but they were very close to the same burning rate.

ie... H4350 and Imr4350



Cal30

I would lean to saying no, but when I switched to 7828ssc, I worked the loads back up & they are virtually identical. So, if it was a small amount, I would treat it as the bottom of a diff. lot & mix them.

My logical, conservative reaction is "don't do it". My practical experience reaction is, "With powders in the same burning range, well mixed, and used in well-thought out loads, it probably engenders little or no danger."

As I've posted here before, one of my shooting partners (Dave Lee) won a 600-yard event at Camp Perry in the late '70s/early '80s. His load performed very well, but he couldn't remember which of his several loads he had used in that event. So, when he got home, he pulled down a couple of remaining cartridges to weigh the charge and note the load in his data book.

Zowee! What he found were loads of mixed ball powder and IMR 4895!! (The ball powder was either AA-2520 or Ball-C, but there was no telling by looking at it, and he had both in his shop.)

Then ,in my own BR shooting, I pretty much always used Vihtavouri powders...N-133 in my .30 PPCs, and N-135 in my .30 BRs. One time I accidentally poured a powder measure full (1 lb.) of N-133 into a brand new jug of N-135) My choices were to throw away 9 pounds of V-V powder, at about $18 per pound (back then), or to mix it well and shoot it up. Turns out it shot pretty well in BOTH cartridges.

I would caution folks, though, mixed powders may work better in relatively small cartridge cases. That way, no matter how much the powders might separate in the jug or measure, one isn't as likely to get a severe catastrophic overcharge of the faster burning of the two.

And I absolutely would not do it with powders of distinctly different burning rates. Can you imagine what MIGHT happen with a jug full of mixed Bullseye (or Nike, which is even faster) and 5010?

If I had a smidgeon of powder left in several cans regardless of the burn rates I'd mix them all together and use the mixture as fertilizer on the lawn.

Then go to my reloading store and buy new powder and get on with life. I just don't care for a dab of powder in the bottom of the can as it don't get me the next box of ammo loaded and I usually want the entire box loaded the same way.

If you weigh all your loads it shouldn't be a problem but if you throw charges I would say "Hell No!". The difference in volume of the individual grains would seem to say this is just not a good idea.


I'm paranoid about killing myself as I feel that everyday living gives to many chances for other things to kill you so why give Fate a free shot by risking yourself when it's not necessary or you don't have fun doing it.

I won't do it just to save a few grains of powder in the bottom of the can.

Count me in with the guys saying "No- do not do it".

The reason I'm with those guys is it sets a bad precident in your mind about what is OK to blend. We have enough issues to deal with as Reloaders that we do not need to create additional "potential" problems for ourselves.

I wouldn't mix them.

It may have safety risks, and will definitely tie your hands in other ways. For example, I have both IMR 7828 and IMR 7828 ssc. I like keeping them separate to allow the use of a powder measure in the future, even if I'm not doing it now with a particular load. My 7828ssc can still be used for making loads that standard 7828 can't....why give that up?

If I accidentally mixed the two, I might not throw out large lots of powder of the same burn rate.....but then that would be an unusual case. I attempt to keep separate lots of powder separate as well.

I prefer to use the ends of cans I want to be rid of to make practice loads for off hand shooting....something from the starting load area of the manuals....with bullets from the ends of boxes as well.

Cheers,

Dan

I wouldn't hesitate to mix two powders of the same burn rate together and manufacturer . Just load on the caution side and work up . I see NO problem with that . SSC is just super short cut for better metering !.

Different powder manufactures or different burn rates NO WAY PERIOD !.

I've done things that would make a fool cringe .
I mixed 30 year old powder in with new powder .
It was IMR of the same number and I lived to tell all of you about it !.

The crony never showed any more Std. deviation than any of the original loading from either of the two previous batches .

I simply wanted to " Freshen " the powder and see if I would have a problem in doing so .

I didn't , neither did I max out the loads on checking it !. I rarely max loads any way .


Shoot Straight Know Target . ...

According to Hodgdon, weight for weight short cut and standard are supposed to be the same. ergo, if you are weighing every charge I don't see what it could hurt. I routinely "blend" the remnant of one can of powder with the new can, but if you are throwing charges by volume, it seems like it would make a difference.

+1 for the lawn.
If it is a small amount of powder.
Does it justify spending time working up a load when you could spend that time working up a load on your new batch of powder.

Well, thanks for all the info gents. One thing I failed to mention in my original question was that I weigh every single reload. I do not use a powder measure as I do not have that kind of trust for conformity with the thrower. Thanks again.

I have seen posts (apparently on other forums) where oldtimers routinely blend the remnants of the old can with a new can. It takes a little bit of effort to mix it thoroughly, but with a new lot of powder the load has to be tweaked anyway. You've just corrupted the new lot; it won't match perfectly with other cans of the same lot.

As long as you're weighing, the variant in grain size should be a non-factor.
.

"has to be tweaked anyway" Naaaaah, perhaps if you're some sort of super precision, shoot-em-all-thru-the-same-hole kinda shooter, which everybody in cyberspace is except me, you may have to tweak your loads after "corrupting" the powder but when I get down to the last oh say 1/4 or 1/8 of a can of IMR 4350, it gets dumped into the new can of IMR 4350, after looking in the new can and saying, "dang, that looks just like IMR4350 to me", I pour the small portion into the large portion and tumble the new can around in my hands for a moment and go back to loading. And when I shoot the ammo, there doesn't come a point when I say, "dang, these cartridges are loaded with the "corrupted" powder! I will need to "tweak" my sights."
This will frustrate the chicken littles of the world but I do the same thing with ammo I'm loading for factory matches. Perhaps if I were a 1000 yard shooter or a bench rest shooter, it might make a difference but not in the real world. As it is, I find that ammo, using the same powder, bullets, etc, will change POI from day to day because of changes in weather and temp. Not enough to bother if you're shooting at a Pdog but enough to move you out of the 10 ring or off the X. But that has nothing to do with different lots of powder.

Well put, Stillbeeman


Another couple of things which have been left out so far in this thread....


1. Cannistered powder is called "cannistered", because the factory has made sure each lot burns similarly to the others of the same make & name...at least well enough to be used interchangeably in reasonable working loads. As such, it will not normally cause ANY sort of problems to mix cannistered powders together with other cannistered remnants of the same make & name. The powder is INTENDED to be used that way (and incidentally is NOT intended to be constantly used at absolute maximum pressures....which is related to why most factory cartridges are also not loaded to absolute safe maximums).

2. Many of the commonly printed warnings are for persons with limited experience, knowledge, and "feel" for the powders they may be using. As such, those persons' loading practices should not vary outside the bounds of the warnings. But, as one gains experience, knowledge and "feel", the boundaries expand. It is much like driving a motor vehicle. A beginning driver is barely safe when alone, in an old Ford pickup, restricted to low gear, carrying a few boxes of picked fruit from one end of a field to another. He is to driving as a brand new shooter is to handloading.

However, 15 years later, the same farm kid may be doing well in NASCAR. He has watched, listened, practiced, competed in go-karts, etc., and worked his way up the driving skills ladder. His knowledge is now to driving as the knwledgeable experienced reloader is to the general field of loading ammunition.

What is safe for the starting end of the learning curve in either field differs greatly from what is safe for those at the upper ends of the skills.

quote:

Originally posted by ztreh:
Is there any problem with mixing powder of the same class i.e. (IMR 7828 AND 1MR 7828 SSC). Say at the end of both containers there is a small amount remainng in each can, if these are mixed together,does or will this create a problem?

I think we have a consensus.

Yes, there are problems with mixing powders, even a small amount. But the problems can be overcome if the powders are similar and if the loader is knowledgeable and careful and well-equipped and willing to accept a higher risk of inaccuracy, damage or injury. How much risk depends on the loader's skill, care, knowledge and intelligence.

Anybody out there willing to set up a lab with pressure test barrel, chronograph? calorimeter? burn-rate tester?

You mix your powders, you increase your risk. You equip yourself with the gear and care and you reduce your risk.

WOW, can I pontificate, or what?

Lost Sheep (Larry)

I put all my stocks of like powder into one can - I was legally only allowed to posses so much of each type, so doing that made it look like a lot less.

However, one should keep this very basic principal in mind:-

quote:

... sets a bad precident in your mind about what is OK to blend.

Wise words of caution there!

quote:

You mix your powders, you increase your risk. You equip yourself with the gear and care and you reduce your risk.

That says it in a nutshell.

I've done it, but I kept those rounds well separated from any others and checked for pressure signs after I fired a few. I started with a charge about four grains lower than a middlin' load for the fastest powder in the mix and went from there. Never had any problems, but it's something I don't make a habit of doing. For the record, I mixed AA2200 and AA2230 in proportions I knew not at the time and know not today. I still have all ten fingers and both eyes...

Stillbeeman and Alberta Canuck have this down pat !.

If one had the containers it would be wise to put ALL of the same powder type into one !. IE if you have 5 1 lb. cans of 4350 , put all of them into a 5 lb. appropriate jug and make sure it's Labeled Properly !. Now you have 1 lot of powders !.

I guess I should inform the Masses here on AR that powder manufactures vary as to strict standard . Imagine a HUGE Bin of powder a funnel screw and paddle mixer . Now here comes the powder through the screw into the packager all the little 1 lb.cans or 5 , 8 lb. containers ( Commercial ) scurrying along the conveyor being filled up . All on non ferrous metal grounded anti static equipment .

As with any manufacturing process there are variables as well as BROKEN KERNELS a certain amount of Powdered Powder if you will . It happens . Ball as well as flake isn't as prone but still a certain % is powdered .

So what happens to an extruded powder that gets broken down into fine powder ?. It's Burn rate becomes FASTER . The sky is not falling Chicken littles it's just a fact like Std. Deviation .

I've never been impressed with FPS figures . What impresses me is accuracy and generally that's not at max loadings .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

First, it is still IMR7828, just different lengths of extrusion...same burn rate.

I have mixed powders at the end of a container for 20 years. I'm still here.

As long as the powder CHARGE is still within tolerances to YOUR rifle, you shouldn't have a problem, but that is my experience.

Also:

I bought 5 cans of IMR4350 from 3 different stores. Took them home and thoroughly blended all for "one" lot for me. Been doing this for years.

Maybe I should change my handle to "Lucky."

For this example I probably wouldn't bother because of the small amounts involved. You could do it, or just use the part containers for practice ammo and call it good.
I do routinely dump 1 pound containers of the same powder into a left over keg to creat my own lot. I started doing this because it was bugging me when my powder measure sometimes needed to be set between 1 pound cans. Pour it together, shake and load it all works better.

This post deleted because it referred incorrectly to another thread...AC