I bought 4 8lb. jugs of powder last year, one being w852 that has a burning rate of h450. I have tried it in my o6s and 7mm with no satisfaction. When I ordered it I was with the intentions of getting a powder comperable to imr4831. So much for that. Can someone tell me what this powder with the h450 burn rate is good for. Thanks. fws Also is there a surplus powder compareable to h414. Thanks again. fws

[ 04-09-2003, 21:29: Message edited by: toto ]

WC 852 actually came in THREE burn rates. Two were labelled WC852F and WC852M, respectively. I can't remember how the third was marked.

For better or worse, your H450-ish powder oughta work in your 06s at least. You didn't describe how it didn't work, so I can't suggest anything.

One thing you will likely notice is that it's temperature sensitive, but not how you'd think. It doesn't spike as quickly when it's hot, but it drops off FAST when it's cold outside. Many surplus powders have performed this way for me.

FWIW

Redial

wc852? just listed as WC852, with no numbers? Who did you get it from? I am shooting that, using load data for h414 to start (it's actually slower) and in my 500 jeffe, acts more like win MRP...

450 and 4831 are both slower than h414.

I get good, but slow end, results with mine.

Jeffe

WC 852 seems to be one of the harder surplus powders to pin down. The original WC 852 specs are the same as H-380. H-380 is very close to H-414 in absolute burning rate, but has slightly different burning charateristics (some charts even show H-380 as slower than H-414). For a number of reasons I won't go into here, you can expect significantly more variations from lot to lot in surplus powders than in cannister-grade powders, which is also among the reasons that cannister-grade powders sell for more.

However, some powder sold as WC 852 appears to have a burning rate more like H-450. My belief is that this is not just a "slow" lot, but actually a powder manufactured to a different spec. If your "WC 852" behaves like H-450, it is a bit slow for good results in most 30-06's. You didn't state what "7mm" you're speaking of, but if a magnum, an H-450 equivalent should perform reasonably well.

You don't state whether your lack of "satisfaction" is with accuracy, velocity, powder residue, or the odor of the smoke. If you'll state the problem, maybe someone will have a suggestion.

Thanks to all who responded. I checked it over a chrono. I was loading for the 7mm mauser. I load 414 normally but was trying to find a use for this. Yes I knew at the time about the other variances but was told this would be like imr4831. I have not been able to get the velocity I am wanting. I was just trying to find some use for it besides putting a match to it. I think I got this from Hi-Tech. I'm not sure though. Any way the 872, 860 and 846 do everything I was needing. Example with 50gr 414 19" barrel I get2800fps, 162gr hornady. 49gr w852 ave 2470fps. My hornady manual shows up to 55.8gr of 852 to get 2800fps, but I can't get but 53.5gr and then it is compress the devil out of it. Any more and it bubbles the neck. I hope this clearifies my delima. Thanks. fws

Toto,
I am headed to Shreveport this weekend.. i'll stop by and pick up the this junky powder from ya...

jeffe

Jeff sounds good to me. fws

toto,

Quote "My hornady manual shows up to 55.8gr of 852 to get 2800fps, but I can't get but 53.5gr and then it is compress the devil out of it. Any more and it bubbles the neck."

Which Hornady Manual do you have that lists data for WC-852? I would be looking for that one!!!

Regardless, I use WC-852 (slow lot) in my 30-30 Winchester and 270 Winchester with cast bullets in both. I load using H-4831 data. I am using very minimal charges since I am shooting cast bullets. I did use a listed charge amount in the 270 Winchester with a 130 grain jacketed bullet and the results were groups of less than 2" at 100 yards. I did not chronograph it since my most accurate load in this particular Model 70 is with a Hornady 140 BTSP and H-4831. Yet, this WC-852 would probably be a good powder if I were to "mess" with it a bit in the 270 Winchester.

I am a bit surprised you are getting such variations in velocities with you particular lot of WC-852. I love the WC-852 with cast bullets. I wouldn't give up yet on that powder. Good-luck...BCB

I want to appologize for the wrong info. I meant to say h450 in regards to what the Hornady manual said and since my w852 is consistant with h450 judging by the chrono I used the comparison. Hope this explains the mistake. Thanks. fws

The 852 I have was sold as being = to 4831 I find it a lot slower I can go well past max 4831 loads and still find no pressure signs.

My lot of 852 loads like Winchester 760. I use it as my "go to" for most rifle loading. It gives accuracy and reasonable speeds. In a Garand with 173 grain bullets it has given me my best accuracy. For hunting loads in 30-06 the speed is comprable to factory with 165 grain bullets. Accuracy hovers around an inch with a Pac-nor match grade barrel.

Interesting series of posts...

It does point out the importance of precise language when selling/buying/using surplus powders.

When Hodgdon first started selling surplus 4831 there was no IMR or H designation in those days, what with only one batch on the retail market. Anyway, Hodgdon first called it "4350 data" powder. The reason was simple...if you used it in place of 4350, and used 4350 data from any of the books then in print, it was pretty hard to get in really big trouble using it in any cartridge.

Some retailers of surplus powders still use that approach...sell the powder as appropriate for use with "WX-3297 data", knowing you can't get in deep do-do with that level of loads. In those cases, the true burning rate is usually just a tad slower than that of the powder they suggest you use the data from.

Others sell their powders as the direct equivalent of something else, without saying that lots can vary substantially between one and the next, with the exact same powder...for instance, between W-846 and Ball-C(2). They assume you know that. I suspect they feel safe because most folks who buy surplus powders instead of just walking into "Bi-Mart" to buy canistered retail powder, DO have enough sense to start genuinely low and work up. Unfortunately for all concerned, there are a few inexperienced shooters who buy surplus propellants mainly because they are cheap, start at maximum, and figure if the gun doesn't come apart the load must be safe.

Then, of course, there are firms like Hodgdon and AA, which do enough pressure testing with their specific lots of surplus powders to effectively "cannister" it for that one labelling. They usually supply basic specific loading data with their powders. AA 2200 is a great example of that. It was a powder surplused by the recombination of the two Germanys and the German policy of not stock-piling powder for more than two years, made by Synthesia in the Czech Republic, and intended for military use in rounds such as the .22 Russian. When AA sold 2200, with the 8 lb. jugs it provided one page of sample tested loads in various cartridges.

Anyway, those three different approaches to selling surplus powders make it very important to ask for specific details from whover sells you surplus powders. Is the powder actually slower than the recommended data, therefore almost absolutely sure to be safe with any loads listed for the data they suggest you use? Is it actually the same "number" as the cannistered powder it is recommended to replace (in which case the lot you get may well be a lot faster or "hotter"?) Or, have they actually tested it and are going to provide load they feel they can stand behind?

One thing for sure, surplus powders such as 852 can be great fun and money savers if you make the effort to find out exactly what you are getting, and like to experiment.

[ 04-10-2003, 22:50: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

I've used WC 852 sold by Ammomart in Ontario. It seems to follow the data for H450 pretty well. It has been outstanding in my Brazillian 7x57 Mauser carbine, providing velocities like the Hornady manual describes for H450. The load I use is 49 grains of WC852 behind a Hornady 175 gr. Roundnose bullet, ignited by a magnum primer. On a good day it groups around 1 MOA with iron sights at 100 yards and gives me speeds just over 2,400 fps out of an 18.5 inch barrel.

I've also found it to be quite accurate in my .300 Winchester Magnum with 180-grain bullets, again, performing just like the data for H450 indicates.

As indicated, this powder does seem to prefer a magnum primer for uniform ignition, even with a relatively small case like the 7x57.

I have a jug of the slow WC-852 and it works well in my 6.5x55 and in my 260 with 140s. I've slowly worked up into the charge weights for 4831 and still haven't maxed out as yet. My 260 is a Remington Seven with a 18" barrel, but WC-852 doen't produce the ball of fire like H-380, even though it's much slower burning.

I want to thank everyone for their input. As I pointed out in my original post with 49gr of w852 162gr hornady it chrono's 2470 ave. fps. which is on line with what the hornady says for h450. I am going to try again since every one else has had good luck. Thanks again. fws

Toto, I have shot quite a bit of 852 in a multitude of calibers but have never checked for velocity. My first jug actually had a chart of recommended charges and I kept that chart for future reference. Since then, none of my jugs have contained reloading information. The chart lists 51.4 grains for a 150 grain bullet in the 7x57 for 2610 fps. 49.0 grains with a 175 grain bullets lists as 2450 fps. I have found the powder shoots cleaner with magnum primers. I have used it with good success accuracy wise in 22-250, 25-06, 270. 7-08, 7x57, and 300 win mag.

I want to thank everyone again for their input . I reloaded some more 7x57 with w852and 162 hornady. Two different loads 53gr. and 54gr both with winchester standard primers. I didn't chrono the loads. the 53gr shot 1" groups the 54 1.25". I figure thats good enough for east Texas hunting. I ran out of 162gr hornady so got a good deal on 160 speer bt. have reloaded with the speer and acording to some I loaded half with mag. primer. I loaded 53.3 and 53.8 since both loads is compacting. Will let you know how this goes tomorrow. Thanks again. fws