I never had this happen before, but then I've always been a FL resize guy.

I have been trying neck sizing on a new accuracy rifle. I have been pleased with how well it has been going, but with the cases that I just started reloading, I had quite a difficult time expanding the case necks on some 5X reloaded Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass.

I'm using Redding neck sizing dies, and the upstroke of the ram is normal, but the downstroke (expanding the case neck after being sized down) was significantly more difficult- it caused squeaking and needed quite a bit of force.

I tried lubing the case necks and it made it less difficult, but substantially harder than a group of cases from the same lot that had only been fired once.

The load is a bit on the warmer side (max load per the book of H4350) that gives slightly higher velocity than factory ammo- but consistently is shooting 0.5-0.25 MOA) and accuracy and velocity are still the same.

I tried "feeling" the inside of the necks with a needle, and didn't notice anything. Runout and use of dial caliper show no unusual findings (I don't have a ball micrometer...)

Reading showed this is not what folks describe as a donut- (neck sized, factory cases) and the primer pockets are still tight.

What would cause this?

If your cases are too long they could be going into the neck sizing die too far and the mouth is rolling over slightly and then grabbing the expander "ball" and dragging.

I prefer Redding Dies and always FL size brass and have not encountered this issue. It's hard to believe brass would harden significantly after just 5 loadings so I doubt that to be the cause. My guess is the Die is reducing neck dimensions further than you found with FL Dies, making the effort greater to expand over the expander plug. As long as this is not pulling necks off centre it shouldn't be considered major and the more muscular workout might be beneficial

Slightly off topic but a suggestion if I may.
While I consider Redding Dies the bee knees I am not the greatest fan of their expander plug design. I have found them harder to pull back through sized case necks. On all my Redding Dies I have replaced original decapping / expander stems with Hornady equivalents sporting their elliptical expander plugs, available in most calibres. They both enter necks and pull through neck more smoothly with less felt resistance. They can be purchased separately and simply screw into the Redding Dies. Even better than the Redding Carbide Expander. A pic below;

[url=https://postimg.cc/ZB2X43Gx]

This shows a .30 cal setup. Original Expander Plug on left. To it's right the Carbide Expander fitted to the stem. Far right, the Hornady Elliptical Expander. Note I have screwed it on over thread tape to stop it unscrewing in use ( has happened).

Have you tried to anneal a couple of cases and see if that helps

Remove the expander plug and size the neck then check that it looks all okay especially as Rapidrob has said, maybe the cases are too long and the die is crimping the mouth enough to make it harder to pull back over the expander. Squeaking indicates dryness, try a good brush of graphite in the case neck likewise give the expander a good brush of graphite to start off with.

I am going with they have become to long try trimming them.

Try polishing the expander ball on your die. I do this on all my dies. Just chuck the decapping rod in an electric drill and use a small piece of wet/dry sandpaper with a drop of oil. I normally start with 400 grit then go to 600 for the final polish.

I brush the inside of each case with a nylon brush then use dry lube. This has completely eliminated the squeaking for me.

I use a tool similar to the one shown below that I got from Midway. I couldn't find the one I have on their website but it's similar. Mine came with a good assortment of caliber specific brushes. If you want a picture PM me your cell phone number and I'll send you a picture of the unit I have.

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...012692264?pid=301357

The cause is a donut. New factory brass can have it. Use a bushing die. The bushing will not size all the way to tne neck/shoulder junction.

Or hone out the neck area of the neck die. Its over working the brass. Sizing smaller then needed.

Its not length.

They are all shorter than max length- I pretty much trim every loading to the trim to length.

I am not sure why the multi fired cases all all of the sudden developed this. I had 2 boxes of cartridges and used one for the most part- these are the 5x fired. I thought a donut would show up on measurement, and in any case, why would it pretty much suddenly show up across the whole lot of 50, in neck sized cases, and not at all in the ones that were only 1 time fired?

As to the polishing or getting a tapered expander ball, I certainly can see how that would help, but it doesn't answer "why" this all the sudden popped up in something that was fine as of last week.

As to the lubing and brushing- I did do that, and while it made the squeaking less, it did not resolve the issue- I didn't use the device Tom mentioned, but its essentially what I did.

I will try annealing the cases after I shoot them, and see if that makes a difference. I think that solves if it is over working the brass or work hardening that causes it.

I guess I am getting to the point where I need to get a ball micrometer. Too many times I am having something occur and I can't determine why its happening- But I have never had to throw out cases after only 5 loads before, and the 6.5 Creed is not a high intensity cartridge.

How are you cleaning the cases? If all the carbon was removed inside the neck the expander drag will increase.

Also the Redding expander has more surface area than other dies expanders. (meaning more drag)

Clean with corncob/vibratory.

Charles,
Do you have a Redding FL Die in 6.5 Creedmore you that you could try on a few cases in comparison to the Neck Sizer to see if expanding necks is any easier ?
If a FL Die proves easier it could indicate something dimensionally within the Neck Die is causing your problem. If neck expansion difficulty is the same with both Dies it could point to an issue with brass.

Why don't you try some graphite lube?

I experience this with freshly cleaned cases so I brush in a little graphite.

If your die is an S-type bushing die, try a slightly larger sizer bushing and forgo the expander all together.

Zeke

Not much new under the sun. I was going to say that for neck sizing I use the graphite+ have had no problems. Of course, your trim to length is important (even more so in pistol cases that require a crimp).

Well, I finally got the part I needed for annealing this case.

That was the answer. After annealing, they are as easy as they were the first time.

The brass had work hardened. I was a little surprised, as usually my way of discovering a need for annealing was case necks splitting.

Anyhow, thanks for all the thoughts!

I dunno, I think many of you are way off on this. If they are squeaking and really really grabby (and by the way if it's that hard to pull the case down over the expander, it's STRETCHING your case!!!!) it's all about being DIRTY even if you cleaned it. Face it it's only brass alloy and the necks are thin, it's not the hardness. I find Hornady 6.5 CM brass to be on the short side as many of their other caliber cases. I have the Redding Deluxe die set which includes both the full length and neck sizing die and I have ZERO problems!! Now I will say this, each dies has a different expander in it. Why they didn't use the same type in both I don't know, but ONE of them drags hard pulling the case down over it, so I switch it between the two dies. If you anneal you cases it throws off your accuracy because for one thing the neck tension is much less. Usually if I anneal I shoot them a few times to get them harder again. Okay back to my 6.5 CM Hornady brass. I've shot the shit out of them without annealing (to the point the primer pockets were getting slightly loose) and still don't have the problem you do. I also have Federal cases, S&B cases, and Starline cases inaddition to the Hornady. No problems with them either. The CM with is sharp should angle helps prevent case length growth, one of the reasons Ackley used it. You have something else going on. On the troubled cases you have you never mentioned how hard it felt to seat a bullet???

I dunno.

Yes, bullet seating was a little bit harder. It also had a increase in OAL variability.

The annealed cases shot fine today.

I’m satisfied with the results. A bunch of .5” or better 5 shot groups.

If you can tell me what exactly the problem is that was missed, I’m all ears, maybe the rifle is really a .25 MOA gun and I’m pooching it up...

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I dunno.

Yes, bullet seating was a little bit harder. It also had a increase in OAL variability.

The annealed cases shot fine today.

I’m satisfied with the results. A bunch of .5” or better 5 shot groups.

If you can tell me what exactly the problem is that was missed, I’m all ears, maybe the rifle is really a .25 MOA gun and I’m pooching it up...

I think you nailed the solution. 1/2 MOA? I'll take that any day.

You shouldn't have to anneal your cases every time you go to reload them. Maybe send me a few of your cases that you haven't annealed and I can try them in my rifle. It's a match AR10.

These went 5 shots and suddenly got hard to work. The accuracy didn’t change, the primers still are tight, but the OAL started shifting a bit. I had not anealed them at all until last weekend.

This was 2 lots of 50- brought 2 boxes of hornady American gunner ammo. One I did all the work up on. That is the lot in question.

I trim everything every time, even if it doesn’t need it- and sometimes nothing is taken off.

My question came about because I’ve never seen this sudden hardening like this.

I’m normally FL resizing, and wondered if this was something you saw neck sizing.

I usually am pretty liberal with case lube when I FL size, but per the directions, you don’t need that with neck sizing, so that might be why I noticed it more, although it was dramatic how quickly it came on.

Lube helped, but didn’t cure it.

Accuracy is if anything a notch better after annealing... but statistically not notable.

I was getting .5-.6” CTC groups after load # 5, and got .5” groups after annealing, although one was .3”.

The rifle is a SAKO TRG-22. Bolt gun. It’s definitely a better rifle than the shooter can take advantage of in my case.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
These went 5 shots and suddenly got hard to work. The accuracy didn’t change, the primers still are tight, but the OAL started shifting a bit. I had not anealed them at all until last weekend.

This was 2 lots of 50- brought 2 boxes of hornady American gunner ammo. One I did all the work up on. That is the lot in question.

I trim everything every time, even if it doesn’t need it- and sometimes nothing is taken off.

My question came about because I’ve never seen this sudden hardening like this.

I’m normally FL resizing, and wondered if this was something you saw neck sizing.

I usually am pretty liberal with case lube when I FL size, but per the directions, you don’t need that with neck sizing, so that might be why I noticed it more, although it was dramatic how quickly it came on.

Lube helped, but didn’t cure it.

Accuracy is if anything a notch better after annealing... but statistically not notable.

I was getting .5-.6” CTC groups after load # 5, and got .5” groups after annealing, although one was .3”.

The rifle is a SAKO TRG-22. Bolt gun. It’s definitely a better rifle than the shooter can take advantage of in my case.

How do you know if your cases are really hard? You done a Brinell hardness test on them? When cases get really really hard things start happening like split case necks for example. I think you are jumping to conclusions without actual scientific proof.

I have not read all the thread so this might have been mentioned.

The donut is something you get when necking brass up like 30/06 to 5 Whelen etc. When you neck a 30/06 to 35 the top part of the 30/06 shoulder becomes the bottom of the 35's neck and is much thicker brass and that is the donut.

When sizing as you know the die sizes the neck to a slightly smaller diameter that is required and the expander button brings the internal diamter of the neck to a point where in theory all cases will have the same internal neck diameter, irrespective of the brass thickness. Anything that increases resistance over the expander plug such as cold hard fouling, brass that has got hard or whatever, will be much worse for small calibres like 224, 243 than say 375. The reason is the thickness of the neck brass is much the same whether a 223 or a 375. Thus the neck on small calibres is far more rigid.

Good to rub a stromg bristle brush up and down the neck before sizing.

Annealing might be necessary. For me personally, unless very difficulty to obatain brass or very expensive like 240 Wby or 6.5/300 Wby etc. I would just toss the brass out.

Mike, back when I pretty much did what you do- reload until something didn’t work right, then toss the lot.

.223, shotgun, and pistol cases were dirt cheap, relatively. In essence, clean up the shooting position and I came home with a bunch.

I then started shooting odd rifle rounds and while I didn’t anneal, I knew what it was and threw the bad cases in a bin, figuring I’d get to them.

I then got the Africa bug, and $20/case prices got me to get a propane torch.

After lots of tempilac and cussing, I read a post by a gun writer about using a candle.

That was slow, and I still singed my fingers on occasion.

Some folks here mentioned the AMP machine, and while spendy, it was not a fire hazard and it is repeatable.

So, while I need to spend a little for a new cartridge set up, it’s minimal time and I sitting on the bench for me now.

I haven’t played with everything but so far, with .223 in 6 different rifles it makes a minimal, but not statistically significant improvement with straight range brass for accuracy.

Maybe I will waste the time writing it up here.

That happens sometimes, not unusual, cases too long? back off the die two or three turns..I get that expanding necks sometimes, and usually stop and trim the cases to specs then continue with neck expansion..A screw in expander plug really helps as opposed to using the die, and in some cases a set of case forming dies solve a lot of problems..I sometime get split necks and if I get more that 2 or 3 out of a 100, its usually time to anneal..or if brass is used its time to anneal..Anealing is a very important step in solving a lot of brass problems, also a royal pain..

All said and done its time for you to take a chamber cast, I suspect that you have a bench rest chamber (minimum chamber) and probably outside neck reaming is the answer to your problem, maybe inside neck reaming!!