Just thought I'd rub it in for those who have spent a fortune for an accurate rifle. I had picked up a ratty looking Savage 110 chambered in 270 Win for the action to swap barrels with. It had a lightweight 22" barrel that was badly rusted so got it for a song. Well last night I put the old 270 barrel back on just to try it as I have never put a round through it. I picked up a box of Winchesters cheapest ammo and slapped an old Tasco 3-9 on it. Well after a bout 8 rounds to sight it in, the next three made a group that nocked me over at .4" . Just gotta love it when they shoot that well and cost less than an evening at the bar.

That rifle should worth double what you paid for it in theory. Have a drink on me.

I feel ya dog...


$180 Rifle
$120 Scope
$ 12 Die set

That Winchester "Super-X" power point 130 grain stuff is INCREDIBLY accurate. If you have a 270 which won't shoot that stuff sub MOA--it absolutely has integrity problems.

Of course, it takes a good rifle to shoot a .4" 3 shot group, and the Savages are very good in that department.

There are many "theories" being floated around as to just why Savage rifles are so accurate, but no one really seems to know for sure. Likely it is a combination of button rifled barrels, and very true actions.

You hear from all of the custom rifle gurus how chambers are crooked and bolts are out of square on factory rifles, but they cannot be speaking of Savages when they say this. The Savages are simply too damned accurate to have much wrong with them.

A good custom rifle can hang with a Savage in most cases. Other manufacturers are very hard pressed to keep up... accuracy-wise anyway.

Dan

It's a shame that they are SO DAMN UGLY!!!!

Forgive my terminology but I believe the "floating" bolt face is believed to have something to do with this phenomenon. I believe this design feature is unique to the Savage.

Reed

That is indeed an impressive group. YOu have a wonderful rifle/scope combo for shooting small groups on paper. I was with you until you tried to rationalize your expense vs a custom made rifle. Let us know how that rifle/scope performs under adverse hunting conditions, then we'll have something to talk about. There's a lot more to a good hunting firearm than accuracy. jorge

Of course the other part of the contrary position is not to pull that one great group out of your wallet and make it sound like it does that over and over and over. The aggregrate group is what is most often quoted and these sorts of one-time groups are statistically imcomparable to an aggregrate group.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or rain on any parades but we really should strive to compare apples to apples.

Nevertheless, for the money it's hard to beat a Savage...particularly compared to other factory rifles.

Reed

Carcano,

Have we found something to agree upon?

Cheers!

Reed

The photo of the group above (I know the owner/shooter) is not from a Savage, it is from an NEF single shot "Handi-Rifle" in .223 rem. Dave's point being that you don't have to spend a fortune to shoot tight groups.

Those NEF's, when properly fed and fired, will shoot extremely well. That group is likely typical, or not far off it. I have an Ultra Varmint model that shoots 1/2" or better, for five shots pretty much at will. My "wallet group" for that rifle is four shots through a slightly egg-shaped hole at 100 yards, with the fifth shot 1/16" away from that hole. Again, typical groups run 1/2" on average.

As for the Savages, they are awesome. They seem very reliable, and give no problems in the field--at least none that would seem characteristic. Very sturdy scopes can be had for under 250 dollars, and actually for under 200 in the case of the Bushnell Elite 3 to 9's... Used Leupolds are always a good buy as well.

Dan

Thanks Dan...but wait a minute here. Who said anything about hunting and durability. The title of the post was "Cheap Accuracy". Will that $120 Simmons hold up to a hard kicking rifle hunted in sheep or goat terrain.....hell no!I would not have mounted it on a rifle that I intended to use for such. As for being able to duplicate a group....yes I got lucky that was the first handload tried out of that rifle. It has and will still print sub moa groups with Win USA factory 45 grain jhps. But damn some days when the wind is blowing and or I'm not concentrating they are moa + but that has never made me want to sell the rifle and purchase a more expensive one.... Pardon my ignorance but how do I go about quoting or posting a photo of an aggregate group..... You guys are absolutely correct I will not take this setup with these handloads on the hunt of a lifetime..... those were just my cheap accuracy apples. Somebody wants to start a thread " Custom Rifle accuracy" I'll post a different group and some greater $ figure apples.

An aggregate would be the measurement of a compilation of groups with mention of the number used to compute the aggregate. In other words this would be multiple groups providing an average size over many different sessions with differing conditions, etc. It would be able to provide an average, standard deviation, and a relative standard deviation.

When someone speaks of their alltime best group being 0.25 inches, that's considerably different from someone saying their rifle agg's in the 0.2's. By aggregrate they shot usually 10 groups that AVERAGED 0.25 inches. There is a big difference here hence the need to compare apples to apples.

Many will name call the BR crowd and cry that they're pompous, etc., but what they do is very specialized and the work required to improve is difficult and there are simply a lot of shooters that don't have even the slightest awareness of what's necessary even though they may be very bright individuals and generally good shots.

For that matter I'll say that BR is more equipment driven as a good shooter with crappy equipment will get beaten by a crappy shooter with good equipment.

Shooting off the bench is fun and to be successful at it's highest levels takes talent and experience but my hat's off to these guys that offhand shoot at distance like the silouhette guys. If you ask me that's talent.

I hope that helped.

Reed

Everyones got an opinion, some people miss the point. I was stating how suprised I was that a barrel in such bad condition could still shoot well. I did not select a "lucky" group fired from dozens. It was the only group fired after sight-in. I did not mention anything about custome made rifles either. Actually my thoughts of the opening sentace were of my uncles Winchester that he paid $1200 for and can't get to hit a pumpkin, yet still bad mouths my love of savage rifles. Guess maybe I should have given a complete definition before continuing. As far as the huntability of the rig goes, the previous owner of the scope had it on a 7mm RemMag and accounted for 7 moose and three deer. I will admit, this would not be my choice of glasswear. And to finish off my defencive ranting... Yes TXPO it is ugly.

It's impossible to talk about Savage accuracy without the peanut gallery coming out to pee on your parade. I've just about given up on it. Your results are far from unusual that's for sure. I've got one I picked up at a gunshow cheap that if I do my part will shoot groups of 1.3" to 1.5" at 300 yards.

I've killed more than a "couple" of critters with a Savage

Thanks Reed. I now understand what an aggregate group is. I dont have any desire to take my NEF .223 on the benchrest curciut at this time. I should have stated that the load pictured showed promise with this particular rifle.
I do think I will attempt to aggregate a pile of crows with a ground hog or two.....if my $12 Lee RGB dies and my $120 scope hold up to the rigors.
If they dont then I will have learned a lesson and spend more money on better gear. As far as Savages go I have a 23A built sometime in the '20s It has sent thousands of rounds down range. I'm inclined to post a pic of what it will still do but alas I havent measured the last 20 groups and the Kimber & Cooper owners might get their boxers in a wad

You know, sometimes........it........just.......isn't.......worth........it......

I'm not talking down the Savage. I've considered buying one in 223 to have a lot of bang for the buck. It's truly incredible how well they do for the money. Cost/benefit is clearly in their (Savage's) favor. This is comparing it to pretty much any "out of the box" entity.

However, when you want to talk down about others you need to compare on even ground. There was mention made of a Savage winning a competition somewhere (I didn't go back to re-read). That's good, but let's talk when it starts happening a little more often. If they really are "the answer" then you will see more of them and they will have a presence. To my knowledge this hasn't happened but admittedly it hasn't been too long. Don't forget that there's something to be said for the nut behind the gun...

Remember, you could take a POS and every once in a while shoot a good 3-shot group by canceling the error of the rifle with inadvertant hold. Was it the rifle? No, it was luck.

Use the stats as they don't lie. The stats quoted in competition don't exclude "called fliers" they include all shots, and not just 3 to 5, more like 50-100. I'm sorry if it gets some folks panties in a bunch but until you do that I'll show a little more respect for the folks that do.

This is all from a guy that doesn't do the BR thing...I simply appreciate the level of performance that is proven...not anecdotal.

There, have fun with that and knock yourselves out.

Reed

This ugly Savage cost me big time. I let my daughter use it on a elk hunt. So she decides now MY rifle is hers. If loosing the gun was not bad enough, then she shots this Bull. Then I had to have it mounted.
NBHUNTER, just get rid of it. If it is like the one my daughter took from me it will just cost you money.
I have shot many 3/4" groups with this rifle. She shoots more like 1 1/2" groups with it. She handles this 270 pretty well for a 90 pound girl.

Damn Ron, nice. And I mean that respectfully of course.

I managed to lose a 5x5 in NM shooting a Savage muzzleloader ironically enough. It still pains me to this day. They are very tough as he took one shot into the boilerroom and another in the neck at about 25 yards and I still lost the track the next day after about two miles. Instead of halfway down the neck with the second shot I should have aimed for the base of the head. He was behind some brush and that was all I could see so I suppose I did what I could but hindsight is 20/20. That was on my own, first elk hunt ever.

Good job by your daughter.

Reed

Idaho Ron....

You are WRONG my friend! You WON BIG TIME!!! Losing a favorite rifle to your daughter is a win/win deal.....now you have a hunting buddy for life and all it cost you was a rifle! There is no sweeter thing in the world than when a son or daughter takes an interest in and is succesful in something that you have a passion for.

I was the happiest Dad in the world when my 9 yr old daughter killed her first deer this past season.....a really nice 8 pt....and then a large, mature doe the next evening. I would post a pic but my scanner is giving me fits and huntingpictures.com (where I have it on the internet) is defunct.

Anyway.....you are a lucky man!,,,,and that's an awesome bull too!

Reed and W..huntr,
NBhunter nor I made the claim that these groups were indicative of what we and our cheap POS were capable of day in and day out. I have shot enough to know better. The intent of the thread was more along the line of ..."Hey look at what SOME cheap setups appear to be capable of."
Ron, That is a very impressive Bull.
Sorry but around here just because you say that you have shot a few 3/4" and she some 1.5" groups will not qualify your rifle as accurate .... I will venture a guess that there is absolutely nothing cheap about yalls memory of that hunt.

I wasnt crackin on you Dave, I know what you meant. Actually I agree wholeheartedly with Buzz's comments.

Idaho Ron....

Caliber, and load please.....

Age of daughter too......Have a 10 year old that i am scared to let shoot my 6.5x55...should I be???

[ 03-02-2003, 18:40: Message edited by: Johnny Ringo ]

Now lets really muddy up this post--WHATS THE RUNNOUT ON THE BULLETS??--obviously all that factory ammo has to be under .002" right!! (Otherwise the bullets hit the target sideways!)
Just having fun kraky style...!!

Johnny Ringo,
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Her gun is a 110 in a 270 win. The load was 54 gr of 4831 with a 130 gr Hornady interlock. This load produces very low recoil and in her rifle it was extreamly accurate. She like it better than the 243 she was shooting. She shot lots of ground squirrels with this load. She likes to shoot it but she is not strong enough to shoot it any other way than with a rest. She did get to the point she could shoot over her knee at 100 yards pretty good. I can't tell you about your daughter. I think all kids are different.
I do know that Kasi had no Idea what I meant when I told her she was flinching. After I found that out we got busy shooting snap caps. These helped her get controll of her trigger. Then I would load the gun for her and every once and a while I would load a blank. This was to see if she was under controll. I would make sure you start her small and work up. Then when you do get to the 6.5 make sure you help her with the trigger controll. Ron

[ 03-03-2003, 03:46: Message edited by: Idaho Ron ]

Roger--
It's all about the process--you ever see that sand painting Buddhist monks do? Spend days creating an incredibly complex work of art by trickling colored sand on the floor one grain at a time. When they're done they sweep it up. Not trying lay it on too thick here but there's something to be said for the deliberative precision (and clear head it takes to acheive it) involved in the process of creating good groups. It is clearly stupid to spend the time and money I do dinking with guns and loads, as it is clearly stupid to spend all day in the sun in July shooting prarie dogs at 300 yards--I love them both. One without the other, however, wouldn't be nearly as satisfying. FWIW (not much.)

Thanks for the reply Idaho Ron.

I noticed with some interest that she used a non-premium bullet, in a gun that is "too small" for elk. Good thing the elk didn't know this, or he may have refused to die.

Very nice animal, tell her congrats.

Johnny Ringo,
The bullet was just under the hide on the off side. It was a perfect shot and bullet performance.
This bull was the 12th bull for the day that we found. This was the only one she shot at. We did see a couple more as good as this one but they gave us the slip. This one was in some trees with a storm hitting us hard. I bugled and he came out. Then the wind whipped around and the cows were on the run. I told Kasi to shoot she took a log time getting ready and the bull started to run. I said KASI SHOOT! she got on him and shot. It was a running shot at 200 yards. I had a friend with us to help out. He said he never heard a hit. I never heard the hit. we made our way over to where he was last seen. Kasi was ready to cry when we got there. My buddy came running back to us and said he is down!
I was so proud of her at that moment. She had done something most men have never or will never do. Heck I have never shot a bull that big. To this day a lot of the boys in her school don't beleave she shot it. Ron

Idaho Ron & Kasi:
Fantastic trophy of a lifetime! Jack O'Conner
would be proud for you both. This is the best story I've seen on this forum. I'll bet Kasi
will be going hunting with you from now on!
Just goes to show you, it's not the gun that
matters, it's the shooter! Congratulations!!!
BLR7