On re-thinking it, Seafire, I agree with you. A 5% reduction in Ackley's LOWEST loads is not always enough.



At the same, time, one must be fairly careful of too much load reduction with slow burning powders in tightly bottlenecked, heavy-bullet, combos. So, I would suggest probably not using Ackley's data at all when it comes to slow-burning powders.



Another book to be leary of is the Speer Manual #8. It also has some loads which came to be a bit infamous for "warmth" amongst the handloaders I know/knew.



Like many have said in this thread, one can't have too many loading manuals. Personally I have two bookshelves full here in the computer room, and another down in my shop area, as well as one file drawer of powder company loading pamphlets. I also use three different computer loading programs from time to time.



Probably the handiest trick has been to visit a lot of the loading data sites on the internet, hard-print out their data, and keep it in 3-ring binders down in my loading area.



One more suggestion...for beginning handloaders, work with as few powders as you can to cover all your guns. After a while you will get to "know" or "sense" how those few powders work in different applications and will instinctively recognize unreasonable loads of those powders. That works even better if all your powders are from one series, like the IMR series of single-base "stick" powders, or the Winchester series of "ball" powders, or the Alliant ReLoader series of double-base "stick" powders.



Reloading is fun, and it IS a bit of a game, but it's not a game for the foolhardy, the careless, or the uninformed. Developing the ability to tell what's likely to be safe data and what's not may be as important to handloading as developing good trigger control is to shooting.





Best wishes,



AC

Usually the first books I reach for are Speer and Nosler for obtaining data, as they have been the most consistant Ive found with Max loads and velocities in my experiences. Your chamber pressures may (and probably will) vary.

Sometimes I like to look at Ackleys data just to see how high in the sky he reached. The man must have not cared much about flattened primers.

I have most of the big names, but like Lyman, Nosler, Barnes

Regarding Ackley and his loads, You must also consider that most of his load data was worked up during the 50's and 60's. That makes his load data around 50 years old. The powders he was loading with have been reformulated many times by the manufacturers since Ackley's day. I don't believe IMR of today is making 4064 the way that DuPont made it in 1955.

Yet I have compared loading data from Ackley to new manuels, and he still isn't too far off the mark. Just got to be careful and cross reference between at least 2 manuels, if not more, to find a reasonable starting point.

He is still an interesting read.

I have a Speer No13, a Sierrer and Lyman No 48 reloading manuals, but was looking to add another book or two on reloading. I don't need anything specialist on handguns or casting bullets, just rifle shooting/loading at intermediate to advanced levels.

What is everybody's opinion on the Lee Reloading Manual? Decent book or just an advert for Lee products?

How about the A-Square book "Any Shot You Want"?

Any others people recommend?

Regards,

Pete

Pete if you are ready to go anal about reloading and accuracy, I have found nothing more comprehensive than Zediker's book Handloading for Competition, Making the Target Bigger

It can be had either on the above website, or via Sinclair International or (I'm sure) some of the other web distributors (Grafs, LS&B etc).

Precision Shooting has a book called "Reloading Guide" - also worthwhile if you are interested in accuracy reloading. I was not so keen on the "Benchrest Primer" from Precision Shooting - a bit too disjoint for my taste. Both available from Sinclair's.

Other than that, I mostly use the Nosler and the Hornady reloading manuals.
- mike

P.S. Ken Water's "Pet Loads" - supposedly very good.

I've got the Lee book and I'm not that impressed by it. It seems to be just a compilation of data from other sources. My guess would be that they just gathered up loading data from various sources, like the powder companies' free load data, and just put it all togther.



I like the Hornady and Nosler manuals. My suggestion is to add one or both of those to your library.



Just my two cents....

-Bob F.

Hey Pete, I always like to recommend that a Reloader have as a minimum a Manual from the folks that make the Bullets and Powders you are using. There are "occasionally" some design features with a specific weight/caliber of Bullet that can change the Load using their Bullet significantly.

The Ken Waters "Pet Loads" previously mentioned is excellent and from a Reloading Guru. Likewise books from Bob Hagel.

The old P.O. Ackley. "Handbook For Shooters & Reloaders"(2-book set) is a fine read and gives you a good look at the Wildcatting efforts of many people from 50-60 years ago. The only problem is that much of the material in it is "seriously outdated" and should be read in that context.

I agree that some of the older books contain a lot of good info you'll never see anywhere else. As mentioned, P.O. Ackley's books are excellent. I also recommend Bob Hagel's GAME LOADS AND PRACTICAL BALLISTICS FOR THE AMERICAN HUNTER, HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK, YOURS TRULY, HARVEY DONALDSON, and Phil Sharpe's COMPLETE GUIDE TO HANDLOADING. In addition to the books you now have, you should get one of the Hodgdon manuals that give loads for their powders as well as other makes of powder. One of the Vituvuori manuals would also be useful, if you plan to use their powders. Norma used to have a manual also, but I don't know if they still do.



You can NEVER read too many books on this subject!! I have been reloading ammo now since 1954, and am still learning something new about it every day, a lot of it from these web sites!!

Another vote for Handloading for Competition. Bet I've read it through half a dozen times or better. I even emailed Mr. Zediker a time or two after I bought the book, and yes, he answers the email...nice guy and a class act

As with all loading information, one has to be careful with the info given in many manuals...it does NOT replace working a load up in your own rifle. You already know that, I realize, but it brings me to the subject of P.O. Ackley's data....



P.O. Ackley's data is particularly sensitive in that regard. From 1960-66 I operated a small gunsmithing shop in Kalifornia and Oregon, and got to know Parker fairly well via both written and oral conversations. We traded a lot of views, comments, and info.



When the Remington Model 700 in 7 mm Mag first came out, I got one of the very first ones off the production line. I had no loading data for the cartridge, so I called Parker and asked him what to use. He said words to the effect that "It's just a clone of the 7m/m Weatherby...just use Weatherby data." Well, that sounded a bit hot to me, so I took his data for the 160 grain Speer and 4831 (which later appeared on Page 405 of his book), and reduced it by 3 or 4 grains.



First shot melted the head right off the case and froze the bolt solid. Remarkably, it did no permanent damage to the rifle, which I still have (now with a real 7m/m Weatherby chambered barrel on it). The bolt handle did come off the bolt while whacking it open, however. (Would have just removed the barrel right off the bat, but didn't know that Remington's bolt brazing job was only half-fast at best, nor that the case was mostly headless, flowed in around the bolt head, and that tightly stuck.)



When I got my first .450 Ackley Mag in about 1961 or 1962, Parker was recommending 90 grains of IMR 3031 behind a 500 grain jacketed bullet as a load. Well, that didn't destroy the gun, but from my rifle it did destroy the brass on the first shot, every shot. With 10 grains less (80 grains) of 3031 and the 500 gr. jacketed bullet, I could get two-to-four loadings from a single piece of brass before the primer pocket failed, the case-head separated, or the belt bulged too much for me to be comfortable with. With 70 grains of 3031 I could get pretty well "regular" brass life...20 or more reloads per case, that is.



My experience with Parker's books is that there is a lot of interesting information contained therein, a lot of good historical reference material, and some really good articles on various tests he made.



BUT, I recommend definitely reducing his lowest load by at least 5% more and working up (or DOWN) from there, as far as his listed data is concerned.



AC

Gents,

Thanks to all for your comments and recommendations.

I hope to be going to the range over the weekend and will see what they have in with regards the stuff recommended and I will look into ordering "Handloading For Competion"

Regards,

Pete

If you are loading for the 30-06 there is no better source of data than our own Stanley Watson's "Handloader's Oddesey" It is a fantastic piece of work. More real world info on changing each variable independently and recording what the results were. Good Hunting. "D"

I love the Hodgdon Number 26 and the Lyman Number 47.
Tons of other peoples data in it.
\
Other than that, I think you should get a copy of every "common" relaod manual that you can.

My modest collection consists of
Nosler, 2, 3 4 and 5th editions
Sierra 4th and 5th editions
Lyman Number 47, I passed on 48.
Hodgdon # 26 ( the best) and # 27
Speer 5th, 12th and 13th
Hornady 4th and 5th additions, passed on the 6th, nothing i need.
Alliant Pamphlet
IMR Pamphlet
Accurate Reloading Manual Number 2

Plus the annual pamphlets are the local gun store when i see them laying out and are for free

Like Canuck said, I love the Ackley Book, but if I ever seldom use a load out of it, I know to work up a lot lower than just 5%, but. 10 to 15% at times.

Brass life was not an issue with Ackley evidently.

Since a lot of these manuals cost not much more than a box of premium bullets or a box of factory Magnum ammo, it bothers me when someone does not have a couple with the complaint they are too expensive.

Like a guy who complains the cost of milk is too high to afford, but he always has plenty of cigarettes and plenty of beer in the refrigerator. I have no sympathy for them.

YOU can deluxe your manual library out for less than the cost of a new barrel on a rifle, or the cost of a clunker used rifle, or less than the cost of a mid priced rifle scope.

They are a real cheap investiment in the scope of things

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

Seafire said:

Quote:

---

Brass life was not an issue with Ackley evidently.

---

maybe P.O. just got so deep into the habit of running rifle/action-destruction tests that he could no longer tell the difference between them and normal loads??

I have ~50 load books.

My advice would be to get the Sierra for rifles, and the free information for the powder manufacturors [re packagers] on pistol loads.



What is bad about the Lee is that it compiles data from many sources and then presents them side by side, as if pressure and velocity measurements taken at one source is equivalent to measurements taken some where else. It is not due to the erratic nature of pressure measurement and different barrel lengths. This book should not be used to compare powders.



What is bad about "Speer 13" is the loads are presented side by side in order of velocity, as if taken at the same pressure. They are not, and this is not a good book. This book should not be used to compare powders. Also, the start load veloicies are faked with a bogus formula.



"Lyman 48" is a much better book than the above two, but not up to the level of usefulness of the Sierra for rifle loads.

I have a stack of reloading books...I mostly use the Hodgdon and Barnes manuals...You will find a lot of discrepencies between all of the manuals...

My old Lyman will give you the real max loads, but they didn't have to deal with litagation in those days...

Pete .....I use a variety of manuals to check loads but in reality most of that stuff is avaialbe on various company websites but the best general purpose ... and interesting is the A-Square "Any Shot You Want". I've found it to be the only one with any type of serious discussion (with data) about the potential pitfalls of changing components or even lots of the same component....plus it has data on some of the really big stuff that is interesting to read.

I think it's a "must have" or at least a must read.