I'm sure there are other rifle chamberings that are death on brass cases, but my vote right now goes to the .243 Winchester...

I'm not into the wildcat cartridges, so I can't speak from any experience there.

Nor do I own or fool with any magnums.

But as for common rifle chamberings, I've loaded or had at least some experience with most of them, and I note that the .243 win seems to trash the cases faster than any other...

Jack Belk once said that he'd seen more .243 chambered rifles blow up than any other rifle chambering. I wonder if the problem isn't that the cases almost stretch faster than you can trim them!
I'm going through some cases for a friend that he has loaded only three times, and they are 2.055", a full .020" longer than the "trim to" length. Looks like one more load without trimming these puppies might have been the end of that new Remington!

Dan

[ 01-18-2003, 07:33: Message edited by: green 788 ]

.303 British

Back in the '60s, many gunsmiths shied away from chambering the then-wildcat .25-06. Seems like there was a lot of anecdotal evidence of .25-06's "blowing up". The culprit seems to have been SEE, or secondary explosion effect -- new .25-06 owners were overly cautious about loading their custom rifles and would start out with an excessively light load of 4831 and after a few rounds, "kaboom".

My point is, there is and was nothing wrong with the .25-06. And there's nothing inherent in the .243 to make it "hard on brass" or exhibit a higher rate of rifle failure than any other similarly configured high intensity rifle round. I'm confident that your experience with the .243 is related to your particular combination of rifle, dies, loads, and perhaps loading technique. I'm not saying there's something wrong with your loading, but I've had similar experiences with other calibers that presented problems that had nothing to do with the caliber but were rather in the idiosyncrancies of the gun or dies.

Green 788, Although I've never had a problem with my .243Win. brass (Ruger #1 rifle) with close to max. loads (as many as 10-12 reloads), I have had significant neck thickening when using very mild cast bullet loads, e.g. 15-16gr. IMR 4198 with an 87gr. CB. Said thickening occurs after one or two firings with any brand of new brass. Inside neck reaming works, but it also limits case life.

The primary cause of case stretching is the neck sizing operation. Measure before and after and it ranges around .002"-.004".

After that it's rifle with rear locking lugs then comes rimmed-straight wall cartridges and last belted cartridges.

The substantial shoulder on the .243 Winchester and they don't stretch much. I have not noticed neck thickening on mine but maybe I missed it and had a large neck clearance.

There is a note in a Lyman handbook about the danger of tight chambers at the neck in that cartridge.

There is NO one particular cartridge that is "death on brass cases".

There are only inept reloaders...

So I'm inept? It would behoove you not to go there, Steven...

Dan

I seem to trim 7x57 Mauser brass a LOT. Dunno why, I never use max loads. They just seem to stretch like crazy. I'm on my 4th 7x57, and they've all been stretchers.

R-WEST

I do think that individual rifles can contribute a lot to the problem of case stretching. Using high pressure loads tends to stretch cases early as well--for obvious reasons.

Something I had not considered, which makes perfect sense, is what Savage99 said about rifles with rear locking lugs. I shoot a 788 in .243 quite a bit, and it fits this category. I do seem to need to trim every other firing on this rifle's brass.

The brass I trimmed for my friend had been shot in a 700 action, though he didn't mention how many times.

Anyway, it could be the high pressure/small case neck thing that causes the .243 case not to last as long as, say, a .308 case. I noticed at the Lilja website that they mention that some chamberings are harder on brass cases than others...

Dan

Dan I think you're on the right track concerning the 788 actions and the brass stretching more because of the rear lock up. I've noticed this in all the 788's I own that are chambered in some dirivative of the 308 case. Not the smaller cases though, I'm not sure why. - Dan

Thanks, Dan. I should say again that Savage99 called this to my attention, and I like to give credit where it's due!

Sorry about the counter-charge, Steve. I've had good exchanges with you, and respect your opinions...

I do shoot a fairly warm load or two in my .243's, so that may account for some of the trouble with brass I have.

Take care of that Bronco!

Dan

The necks split on my 17 Rem after a few reloadings. I think the neck was cut big in my chamber.

I guess I could anneal them to make them last longer.

Dan,

The 99 Savage may be worse than the 788 for stretching the cases and it's in the web where the metal comes from so feel inside there for a insipiant head separation.

The hotter the load the worse it gets and then it happens fast! The combination of the hot load gripping the chamber walls and the action flexing contribute to this.

I don't believe ANY modern cartridge design is the problem.
Case in point, someone mentioned the 303British. These rifles were designed for military use, and to accomodate a lot of crud. IE loose chambers, and headspace are the rule. Factory loads will often show a separation ring! Heavy loads, accelerate the proccess. If you have a tight chambered rifle with front lockup like for example my Ross rifle, the brass lasts virtually forever, even with loads that would wreck a #4 SMLE.

It's the rifle, not the cartridge!

Guys,

Since there was no consensus here on whether the .243 Winchester was harder on brass than other rifle chamberings, I decided to take the question to the "top," so to speak, and I emailed a Sierra ballistics tech. Keep in mind that these guys shoot more in one day than most of us do all year long, so the opinions and experiences of the Sierra techs are weighty indeed.

Here is both parts of the email, for any interested:

Paul,

I seem to enjoy a lot better case life out of my .270, my .308, and my 30-06 than I do my .243 win. The .243's need to be trimmed twice as often...

Is the .243, in your experience harder on brass than the other calibers I mention above? Or am I doing something wrong? I should mention that I load my .243's pretty much the same as the other cartridges... I never go over published maximum loads... All full length resized.

Dan Newberry

Hi Dan,
I've shot a .243 for about 38 yrs. now and the gentle sloping shoulder will allow brass to stretch pretty bad.I've never had any decent case life either and this is with FL length sizing,neck sizing,partial FL sizing....you name it.It just seems to be par for the course for the .243.
Paul

Paul Box is one of the senior ballistics techs at Sierra, and he's normally who I take my questions to. You can phone the Sierra techs at 1-800-223-8799

Take care,

Dan

Dan,

I don't agree with Sierra that the 243 Win is any differant in case growth than other rimless cartridges that headspace on the shoulder.

Of course they would all have to be chambered in similar rifles and loaded to the same pressures.

I have loaded the 243 Winchester since 1957 so that makes 46 years of experiance with it. My loads were primarily high pressure varmint loads with 75 gr bullets and the load was the same max as shown in Speer #10 which is over what the handbooks show today for IMR 4350. The velocity is 3600 fps instrumental from a 26" bbl.

Did you mention to Sierra that your rifle has rear lock up?

I would be interested in what Jack Belk had to say about this. But that "gentley sloping shoulder" is 20 degrees which is sharper than a 270 Winchester or 06 and those don't grow that much at all.

Have you separated the growth from conventional neck sizing from your calculations?

I full length my .243's, so that may have something to do with it. I didn't mention the rear locking issue, but that makes sense to me.

I think my experiences with the .243 brass in the 788 are a combination of things, which include the rear locking lugs, loads at the top of the pressure range, and I must say that I think the .243 is harder than average on brass than, say, a .308 win.

But I should clarify what I mean by "hard on brass." I get about 10 to 12 loadings from my .243's, and find it necessary to trim them at least three or four times in that length of use. After this, I begin seeing small splits in the case mouth, and sometimes on the shoulder. I've had no trouble with case head seperation or primer pocket issues.

I have two other .243's, one a Mannlicher-Schoenauer with a custom rebarrel, and those cases seem to grow about .005" or so with each firing. I'll check the case lengths on my new Savage 110 which I shot today with newly prepped brass, and see what it looks like. I'll post that a little later this evening...

Take care,

Dan

The .454 casull gets my vote as "HARDEST ON CASES". I've gotten as few as 2 loads before case failure. (split cases not starting at case mouth) I keep my brass seperate for each .454 (Ruger and Taurus)and my loads are well lubed and not maxium. I'm told the brass is overworked buy dies sizing tight to help hold bullets in place. I've got the same results with Starline, WW and CBC (MagTech) brass.
Rick

I just measured the .243 cases that I fired this afternoon in my new Savage 110. They had been trimmed to 2.035" before loading, and had been fired 8 times, or possibly 9.

Anyway, they measured 2.040" before sizing, and 2.041" after sizing. It seems that they stretched .005" to .006" with a 42 grain charge of Varget behind Nosler's 70 grain Ballistic Tip. As I mentioned earlier, my Mannlicher-Schoenauer also stretches the cases about that much with each firing.

On my next trip to the range, I'll be breaking in some virgin cases and see how things look when I return.

All of these cases are Winchester. Perhaps Remington or another brand would not be as soft...

Dan

Of a batch of 50 cases that has been reloaded 9 times,8 times with the collet die.Remington .243 brass from 2001 bought in a box of 100.First loading was FL sized and trimmed.Second loading was with the collet die and trimmed again just for safety`s sake and knowing that my brass was in fact growing longer for some reason.

6 cases are still 2.035
25 cases are 2.036
16 cases are 2.037
3 cases are 2.038

I found that most brass that was factory loaded and fired in my rifle was pretty long when measured.Especially so after FL sizing.My opinion is that upon FL sizing,then firing, my cases are stretching backward to meet the bolt face or block face(#1 Ruger).

I have read that higher pressures of near max loads will also cause the brass to flow forward and in turn cause the neck to thicken.I can`t prove this but it does sound logical enough to me.

M.Berger

tula9130... I think you may have something there... The Remington cases may be more resilient than the Winchesters. I like the softer Winchester brass for easier sizing and better runout numbers (in my experience), but perhaps with hotter loads in the .243 it is taking its toll on the Win cases...

I also noticed that 20 Norma cases I bought lasted only about 6 loadings before forming donuts deep in the necks.

Dan

green 788,

I would be tempted to give the boys at Sinclair a call and order a chamber length gage insert and measure the length of your chamber.

I've been doing this for some time now and the results are surprising when dealing with factory chambers.

You may be trimming more than necessary for your rifle.

That's true, Holmes... I've measured the chambers in two of my rifles, and they are .035" and .040" longer than the "trim to" length.

There is plenty of "stretching" room in there, for sure...

The reason I trim to the 2.035" length is that the new lots of factory brass are that length, and my loads are OAL tuned to work with that much case length (neck tension, as it were...)

Thanks for mentioning that, though. You're right... The factory chambers are "ample" to say the least.

Dan