OK guys, I guess this is 'kinda off-topic, but I want to blow off a little steam. In load development work thus far, looks like H4895 is going to be the best powder. That's ok w/ me as I also use it in my 6.5 JDJ, 375 JDJ, and 308 Striker and it's usually an easily found powder. Nearly out so thought I'd buy a pound. I live in extreme NW LA, w/ closest gun dealers in SW AR. The one I checked in AR was out of H4895 (and prices were tooo expensive). No problem, I'll check in Shreveport/Bossier City. It's Monday, I've got a day off, and it's only a 60 mile drive. The metropolitan area has population roughly 200K. Lots of gun dealers/handloading dealers in the past. Fortunately, I called S'port/BC before making the trip.... Shrevport Sports used to handle gunpowder, but it's been replaced by _____ _____, a nationwide chain of sprots/outdoor stores that does NOT handle gunpowder. Next was a locally owned, large hunting/fishing store, ______'s. Neither of their two stores have gunpowder. OK, guess I'll try _______'s, a shooting range and gun store run by a nationally known gunsmithing/shooting family. Nope, they don't handle gunpowder, either. Hmmmmm, now I'm about to get really frustrated! A friend had told me about a new store just west of S'port, ______ _____. Said they had lots of handloading supplies. I called them one Sat w/ intentions of visiting the shop, but found out they closed at noon on Sat. Called this day, but guess what---they're CLOSED all day, Monday. Did I mention this day was MONDAY when I called?! In desparation, I remembered ____'s ____, a small gun shop in BC. He ordered a gun for me once. Seemed to have a decent supply of handloading supplies at the time, as I recalled. I get his answering machine telling me their store hours start at 9 AM..... yada, yada, yada,.... leave a message. Did I mention that it was 10 AM when I called?! Sooooo, I completely STRUCK OUT trying to find ANY gunpowder in an area population of about 200K!!! One last try w/ another gunshop in SW AR. Got his answering machine announcing he's on vacation for two weeks.... I was sooooo mad after the phone calls that I just walked outside to "vent." Guess what--I STILL don't have any H4895 and I STILL don't know where to buy any.... Ordering it is cost prohibitive at the present because of the costly UPS handling fee. If anyone in S'port/BC has any suggestions, let me know. There... now I feel a little better.... Gary T.

[ 07-14-2002, 08:01: Message edited by: Gary T ]

"Where have all the gunpowder dealers gone?"

The answer is simple, as is the cause...

Reloaders, shipping, and storage regulations!

Reloaders have convinced dealers that it is too expensive and troublesome to stock a lot of powder. Why? Because reloaders are buying on the internet or at gun shows (for the time being anyway) in order to save a buck or two on a pound of powder.

You can't expect a dealer to tie-up over $20,000 in powder and then sell it at wholesale prices. He is in business to earn a living for himself and his family.

This is why I have always suggested that you support your locally owned dealer! Sure, you might pay a few extra bucks for the first pound or two of powder, but when you become a regular customer, you'll see the tprices drop on everything he stocks.

Shipping is a bitch on small powder orders! The actual shipping costs have gone sky-high, and then ad the $20 HazMat fee to every 50 pounds he orders...depending on his jobber (some charge the $20 on each case, while others will pay entire shipping costs on 100 pounds or more on a single order).

Now for a dealer to order 100 pounds of powder to get the shipping and HazMat break, he has to invest about $1400 of his money...that's $1400 that will show a very slow return!

And then there are the "storage regulations" on large amounts of powder...your dealer practically needs to build a special bunker if he is going to keep just 2 pounds of each powder in stock!

In the past couple of years it has not been uncommon for even distributors to no longer carry reloading supplies.

So...everyone...keep buying your powder, primers and bullets off the internet. Keep scrounging your brass off the ground...and soon, that will be the only way to obtain these items...and when that happens...the people selling at reduced prices now will raise them to levels even higher than what your local dealer was charging.

[ 07-14-2002, 07:05: Message edited by: ricciardelli ]

You hit it on the head . most people say they want to support the local dealer,but won't put their money where their mouth is. We lost a good shop because people didn't care about service or advice. Now they complain that there isn't a good sport shop around here. It's amazing that people will make a 100 mile round trip to save 2 bucks on a pound of powder.

For some reason, years ago when I lived in Texas, there was a kind of "discount" department store chain called Gibson's. The one near me had a great selection of reloading supplies including powder, primers, bullets and powder. The last three pounds of H205 I was able to find was on their selves, and had been there for several years when I discovered it. There was also a Gibson's in Lawton OK just outside of Ft. Sill that had a good stock of reloading stuff. I don't know if they are even still in business.

I live in a fairly small city in Pennsylvania. My dealer has a very extensive selection of powders (6 manufacturers) on the shelf at all times and charges between $15 to $16 per pound.

It's not any more than buying over the net when you consider hazmat fees. Around here a dealer that doesn't stock a good selection of powders is soon out of business.

In my case, it seems there are more places that sell powder than gas around here.

My problem with supporting the local guys is that it's hell getting it done. If I call Midway or Midsouth, I have stuff on my doorstep in 5 days. The last time I tried to support my local dealer (who is also my neighbor, and a good friend), it took three tries and three weeks to get a set of Burris Signature rings and offset kit ordered. This was after I explained that, no, I did not want the Leupolds and, yes, there IS such a thing as an off-set insert kit. Really!

After three weeks, and five trips to the shop, I got a set of gloss, (instead of the matte ordered) rings. I just shrugged my shoulders and used them, but do you suppose I will go back for the re-order? FWIW, Dutch.

I feel really lucky. My local dealer is Graf and Sons, no hazmat and no shipping. They always have what I want in stock. Now if we could just get some elk and bear in the middle of Missouri.

Eldeguello:

Gibson's is still around, sort of.

The original Gibson's was in Abilene, Texas and was a family-owned operation which spread through the plains and mountain states. The originator was an enthusiactic hunter, and his sporting goods department reflected this with a large stock of quality firearms and reloading components.

Most of the stores were originally company-owned stores, but as they expanded, a number of franchised, locally owned stores sprang up, mostly in the smaller communities. I'm not sure what happened to the chain, but the company stores eventually went away. Some of the local franchise stores continued, using the Gibson's name. There is one in Kerrville, Texas which has a super gun and reloading department. There are perhaps another half-dozen scattered across small-town Texas, Oklahoma, and maybe Kansas.

My first big game rifle, a pre-Garcia Sako Finnbear, came from Gibson's in 1965. Cost: $137.49, less a $20 allowance for a Lee-Enfield trade-in. Still have the Sako.

There is still a Gibson's in Weatherford, too.

As a kid, Gibson's was THE place you hoped your parents would be going to when you got forced into a shopping trip. They had free popcorn!

I tried supporting my local dealer too, as they are right up the street. Prices are about 50% higher than Bass Pro, and selection pretty much nill. Service is no better than a big chain, sometimes worse. Special order inqiries are always met with disgust, and EVERYTHING is a special order if it isn't for 9mm or 45. Powders are generally re-labeled jugs metered out of a keg.

They can go hungry for all I care.

[ 07-16-2002, 03:27: Message edited by: bulldog ]

I can remember a Gibson's department store in New Ulm MN way back when I was a kid. Man, I haven't heard that name in a long time. I wasn't in to guns at that age (too young) but I sure do remember the free popcorn. That store is now a privately owned hardware store that does not handle gun stuff. Bummer...

As for reloading supplies, I guess I'm lucky. There's a very good privately owned sporting goods store about 10 miles from my house. They usually have everything I want, and they're good about ordering if they don't have it. Their prices are fair also.

[ 07-16-2002, 11:21: Message edited by: Big_R ]

Hey guys,
Personally, I think the disappearance of gunpowder dealers is related more to regulations and issues other than internet/mail/gun show sales. Wonder if the profit margin got so small and the regulations/cost to maintain adequate stock got so big that it just wasn't worth it for many former gunpowder dealers to continue in the business?..... Some may have gotten out of the business because it may no longer be PC to stay in. For example, the first pound of gunpowder I ever bought came from a local Wal-Mart, of all places. Of course, it discontinued handloading supplies (except blackpowder) many years ago. Had not heard of a WM anywhere still carrying handloading supplies until I read of one on another thread. As is the case w/ Gibson's, many stores that carried handloading supplies have gone out of business. (There also used to be a Gibson's store in the small town I now live in. We miss it, especially since WM has just about closed down everything else...) Seems like internet/mail/gun show sales would be an opportunity for the local dealer to make a sale, just as much as a distant dealer. The internet and mail are open to anyone who's willing to work it. Same goes for gun shows. The shows I've went to have been composed of dealers. Internet/mail/gun show sales would seem to concentrate the sales to the most aggressive dealers. In this case, a less aggressive dealer might find himself losing business. That being said, the only TWO times I've bought gunpowder from the mail, it was because the powders were not available locally (VarGet and VV 130). Have never bought any from the 'net. Have bought only a few pounds at gunshows. Probably 60% have come from local dealers. My dealer in town closed up shop many years ago, mostly because he was not a good business man. I have to travel to buy ALL my gunpowder. My nearest "local" dealer is 60 miles away, round trip. I won't travel 100 miles round trip to save 2$, but if I'm making a 100 mile round trip anyway (as I am today w/ my kids to shop for school clothes), I may well try to save some money. Who wouldn't, especially if my "local" dealer is charging up to $25/pound for IMR/Alliant powders? I apprecaite local dealers as much as anyone, but I've got to be responsible as well w/ my funds. Just my two cents. Gary T.

You guys hit it on the head exactly. I gave up my FFL over 15 years ago, because I couldn't make a living listening to "But I could get it cheaper at _______". you fill in the blank. Since I had this strange habit of eating and paying my mortgage, and couldn't do it on less than a 5% markup, I tossed in the towel.

Some of us shooters are just plain STUPID. You would rather drive "X' miles to save $2 on something but it cost you $5 in gas to get there or if a Gunshow, an additional $5 to $10 just to get in to "look"? This does not make sense to me, and has driven the local dealers right out of business.

Wise up, before it's too late and support your local dealers!!!!

Gary T, our Wallyworld still sells most of the IMR and Hodgdon numbers....... So does darn near every sporting goods store, ranch store, etc, etc. I counted 7 places to buy powder in a town of 50,000. Four are "full line", and have over 70 numbers. FWIW, Dutch.

It is primarily regulations. Fire codes, local ords., etc. Try finding black powder! I'm lucky that I still have a small dealer in S. Calif. taht does cater to the reloader & stocks just about everything.

The haz-mat fee and shipping almost always makes the price higher ordering it rather than buying it over the counter, but mostly I buy it locally because I want it to be there. Even if it's a dollar or two more, I count that as a convenience fee for having it today instead of waiting a week and worrying about juvenile delinquents swiping my ORM-D materials off the front porch while I'm at work.

H. C.

Hey guys, Had to "go to town" yesterday to start buying the kids' school clothes so also visited 2 gunpowder dealears mentioned in the original post. The one who's answering machine I got last week had a pretty good selection of powders, but turned out to be $3/pound more expensive than the other shop. The other shop, the one that's closed on Mon, had a very large selection of powders, primers, and bullets, all at very reasonable prices. Picked up the H4895 for $19 and a box of Sierra 6 mm 70 gr BK's for $15. Looked for a box of Sierra 6 mm SSP bullets, but didn't have them. Anyway, I feel a lot better now. Hopefully can play w/ the 70 gr BK's soon.

Dutch, Sounds like you've got it made w/ so many dealers to choose from. I never would've thought there'd be a WM anywhere that still carries handloading supplies... Learned something new! Gary T.

Gary, yea, there are worse places to live...... That pound of Hodgdon you bought runs about $17 around here.

A friend of mine in San Antonio has less choices for gun stores than I do....... Sounds to me you Southerners need to shoot more . Dutch.