I like Redding dies. I have a couple sets for the calibers I reload for. Nothing fancy. However, I haven't bought any dies in quite awhile. So I was looking at the new Sinclair wishbook and saw a variety of die sets for the caliber I wish to reload for in a variety of prices from the inexpensive to make your eyes bug out and 'be shut mouth.' Can someone with more expertise about Redding dies explain the differences, specifically the difference between a regular die and the 'S' type dies? Is the 'S' type just a solid metal die vice what appears to be internal parts? And does it really make a difference or are these just 'tomatoes' or 'tomatos?'

I like Redding dies and look at those too, but mostly just to laff a little. I suspect a LOT of guys who buy them do so in the HOPE those costly tools will work magic and make their rifle (and them) into an awesome shooting machines. Thrn, after the money's spent, they sorta have to tell everyone who will listen just how great them costly dies work, right? Oh well..

Bushing neck sizing began with the BR crowd and probably should have stayed with them. BR shooters generally have chamber necks bored for necks only 8-10 thou thick, much too tight to allow normal 13-15 thou thick necks to enter. They then turn their necks to have 1-2 thou of clearance that works their expensive (in time and money) cases the absolute minimum and puts the bullets very concentric with the bore.

Such a precise chamber fit allows them to size their necks anyway they wish. Some like to be able to seat bullets almost with finger pressure, others seek a half thou grip, etc. For them, a bushing sizer works so they can achive that kind of fit. But, those of us are loading for "sloppy" chambered factory rifles and also need ammo that can be handled somewhat roughly. BR methods not only won't work well for us but can cause trouble.

Bottom line, tool manufactors will build and market anything they can sell, practical or not. I look at those imatation-BR type dies as interesting curios but I know my needs and that's not it; I reload for what I have. I don't have hair splitting rifes, I don't use 24x scopes, I have common factory sporters with rational scopes and I couldn't ever see any tiny group reductions that may be - or may not be - achievable with such pricey dies.

All IMHO of course, others experience may vary. But, I wonder ... ??

I do use Redding Comp and Forster BR seaters, they aren't exotic and do add something to my accuracy.

For neck sizing I have abandoned my conventional neck dies and use Lee's Collet Neck sizer. When I need to FL I use a body die and follow that with the Lee collet. That works as well as my best rifles - and I - can shoot.

This is a really "big" question. The best answer would be to get a Redding catalog. They do a good job of explaining/selling their dies.
The S type of dies are sizing dies that use interchangeable bushings to control how much the neck is squeezed down. There are two different S type dies. One is a neck only sizer. The other is capable of full length sizing, with a bushing for the neck portion of the sizing operation.
The standard resizing die is a one piece die. Therefore must be able to resize any and all brands of brass.
The competition dies all have a floating sleeve to support the case "in alignment" as it is advanced to the operational part of the die. The neck sizing bushing or the seating stem.
The body dies will resize the shoulder and body but will not touch the neck.
Where things get really confusing is when they offer die sets. The mix and match combinations are many.
Hope this helps some.

muck

The S die will full length resize the body of the brass. The bushing floats in the die to size the neck only. 1 operation. Standard dies over work the neck area causing runout using an expander ball.

I use both standard and S bushing type redding dies. It "depends" on the rifle you're loading for, as in all other things that have to do with reloading.

I have a couple of target rifles, with custom barrels, that I use the Redding bushing dies in. I also have a few sets of standard Redding dies that I use in a few of my factory hunting rifles.

If you tell us what kind of application you're loading for, we could give you some meaningful advice.

I agree with Jim C.
Many of the neuances of Bench Rest have slopped over into the factory rifle arena. Often they are chicken soup things that make no real difference and are little understood by the users.
But, the fact remains, if you think they make you a better shot, they probably do.
FWIW, I have shot a lot of factory rifle matches and won quite a few. My dies are a Duke's mixture of standard FL dies and I can't tell you which, if any, brand is "best".

Ok...I'll stay away from the S type bushing type dies then. I want things as simple as possible. LOL! Something else to get messed up on.

I just want a good set of dies. By explanation it appears I want a set of 'Competition' dies. I want dies that are middle of the road in price. Nothing fancy or expensive and is for a hunting rifle.

I've always full length resized my brass, but maybe a neck sizer with a body die might be the ticket as well. And as Muck says....things do get very confusing when they offer die sets that are mix n match combinations. Some of my bullet seaters are of the micrometer type adjustable. But I always check first anyway. So do not know if it helps me or not, but by golly I got one! LOL!

And are you kidding me? Nothing helps me in the accuracy department...it's the relaxing part of BRASS (Breath-Relax-Aim-Stop-Squeeze) that got me. Never been able to relax even after all these years. Dunno why, but I do like to shoot when I get a chance...so it doesn't matter. Anyway...guessing like most others...if we can eliminate the mechanical then we know it is the me, the shooter.

There are probably more RCBS dies sold than any other. If it was me, I'd get a set of full length dies of whatever brand you choose (they're all the best, don'tchaknow) and set it up to Partial Full Length resize your brass.

Send 3 fired brass to Redding or RCBS, they will custom make you a standard FL die that will not over work the brass. If you want top accuracy in a factory rifle, your missing out by not trying the Type-S Fl die.Doing your own testing is the only way to know.

quote:

maybe a neck sizer with a body die might be the ticket

Leave the bushing out of the S die and you have a body die. Lee collets smash the brass agains the mandrels , thinning neck wall thickness. The
mandrel may need to be turned down later so the sized brass will hold the bullet. You do not have this problem with a bushing.

I have dies by RCBS, Lyman,CH4D, for standard type everyday loading and they all do a good job but for the couple of cartridges I take a little more trouble over but short of BR use I use Wilson neck sizing and seating dies with Redding body dies. Not sure the results are quantifiable because of the other variables involved as I dont weigh or sort projectiles by any criteria, or any other of the died in the wool BR technic's but they are no more expensive that standard RCBS etc dies once the arbour press is obtained. The Wilson neck and seating dies with Redding body dies are the best way forward IMHO. I do turn the neck for my couple of special cartridges. For the standard dies like the CH4D etc I had the neck opened out so there was minimal working of the brass and and expander was not needed.


Von Gruff.

quote:

Lee collets smash the brass agains the mandrels , thinning neck wall thickness.

"Thinning"? Not really.

Brass isn't nearly that mallable. And Lee's Collet die can't stand anywhere near that kind of ram pressure before stripping the top cap out.

http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi Collet die pressure exertion

All of the sizing in the Collet die takes place at the very end of the stroke, when the ram/shell holder appears to bottom out against the base of the die. If you lean into the handle at this point, you will force the collet up into the die body, and cause the collet to squeeze the case neck down against the mandrel (the very end of which pops out the spent primer). About 25 lbs. of force is sufficient to resize most cases. If you are sitting in front of your press, just leaning your upper body weight into the lever is about right.

A good way to determine how much is necessary is to start the case into the die and feel the die remove the primer. Start using pressure and work up to what you think is about 25 lbs. Remove the case from the die and attempt to place the intended bullet in the case neck. If there is little or no resistance, repeat the process with slightly more pressure. When you have reached a point where there are vertical striation marks on the outside of the case neck or the intended bullet does not fit easily into the case neck, the correct amount of pressure has been achieved.

First of the Lee Collet die isn't going to thin your neck down and IF it did, by the time it done that the life of the brass would be gone.

I disagree with negatives of the Redding bushing dies. There are many instances where the different bushing can be use like in match grade special chambers. I happen to have more then one rifle like that where the neck portion of the chamber is specifically tighter. Even if you have a rifle that can extract and show accuracy, like some very good varmint or target models the bushing have a benefit. Also there is no sense in over sizing down the neck because that is what work hardens the brass and the neck splits.

I use to buy RCBS dies but they changed. Before they were finished in raw metal color. Today they they have a grey finish on them. The difference is that the older dies were very hard all the way through. Today the dies are surface hardened with a soft core and I know a lot of people that have cracked the sizer dies easily including myself. It's also been said that they are made in China. That I don't know, but they definitely changed and towards the negative side in my opinion.

There's nothing complicated what so ever with any brand bushing dies. Probably the hardest thing is deciding what size bushing you need or want. Other then that it's just size as normal.

My Lee dies for the 7.62x54 Russian were sizing my necks down too far for a Finn 39 rifle that I have and resulted in lots of necks splitting even when annealing the cases. I had to chuck the sizer die in my lathe and open the neck up by trial and error till I got where I wanted it. No more neck splits....it dropped to zero. Now a bushing die would have been as easy as ordering another bushing that didn't size the neck down as much.

Collet Die adjustment

If you are using the Collet die in an RCBS Rockchucker press, or a similar design that toggles over center at the top of the (ram) stroke, this applies far greater force than is necessary to resize just the neck of the case, and can damage the die or collapse the case. To correct this situation, adjust the die two full turns into the press after the die contacts the shell holder with the ram at the top of its stroke, rather than one as in the instructions. This will stop the press before it gets to the toggle over point. With a press without having an over center feature, apply about 25 lbs. of pressure to the handle once it bottoms out to resize the case. On most presses, this translates to over 600 lbs of pressure on the ram.

The collet might be stuck in the closed position from closing the die without a case inside. Remove the cap from the top of the Collet die and push the mandrel, collet sleeve and collet out through the top of the die. Open the collet back up with a tapered punch or Phillips screwdriver. http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi Bye Bye

Jim C: do you fool the collet die to only size the upper part of neck by putting washers on top of shell holder? To anyone; If you want a Lee Collet necksize and they don't list it in your case they will make one. You send them a couple of yous cases and bullet. I think it still runs about $29 includeing return shipping. I had them make collet dies for me in 9.3x62-7.5x55 and 8x56R. Call Lee customer service and they will tell how and were.

What die brand or care taken in reloading is just like anything else..it depends on the amount of mucking around you want to do and the level of accuracy YOU and your RIFLE are/is capable of and the amount of effor you are willing to go through...nothing else to it, hardly.

I've used dies and presses from every die and press maker going back to Herters, and achieved every level of accuracy from patterns to BR level. I have sets of dies for some rifles today that are a mix of 2-4 brands going back and including a few Herter sizers or seaters.

I consider anything over 1 MOA as a "pattern" maker and if I can't get that rifle to shoot well below that it gets traded off. >1 MOA is readily achieved through tuning the rifle AND the ammo including the press and dies. Most people don't bother with this level and if you're not interested in that level that's OK.

Any brand of die in todays world are made to a much higher level of quality and precision than in the "olden days".

I have purchased MANY sets of dies from all the major die makers and some custom die makers in the past 10 years and marvel at the quality for the most part, but this equipment is man made to certain tolerances on machines at a rate commensurate with profit so you might get a mess up now and then...all you have to do is send it back for a replacement.

I use Redding Type S bushing dies for the most part nowadays unless it's a wildcat that RCBS or REDDING charges too much to make or just have CH4D do a bushing sizer. I know from long experience that I can make a "custom" fit die very easy to fit even the most sloppy factory/military chamber simply and much cheaper than having any die maker do it.

BUT!!!...again...this is a level higher than many people want to go and for the average "few times a year" hunter/shooter looking for "hunting" level accuracy, the cheapest set of dies for your caliber will produce very accurate ammo with just a smidgen of "tuning" work on your part.

You also have to remember to learn the in's and out's of HOW to setup a set of dies AND the press...it is a little more complicated than what the brochure outlines as Fat_Albert alludes to with the Lee Collet dies.

Luck

I might agree on the accuracy of machining dies today, but I also will draw the line on quality. There is no doubt in my mind that the older RCBS dies, meaning the ones finished in the natural metal, were better then what RCBS is selling today. Take an old RCBS die and chuck it in your lathe and try machining it and do the same with the ones they are making today. See the difference. Like I said I know of more people cracking the newer RCBS sizer dies then the older ones. I'd say their quality went down there. Even as cheap as LEE dies are, they are pretty hard and I personally don't know of anyone that has cracked their LEE sizer die. Don't think for one moment I favor one brand...I own quite a variety of different brand dies.

I agree the instructions on the dies won't guarantee things to be perfect. The most common thing see beginners do is size the shoulders back on their cases because they have the dies set wrong. This is a trial and error setting I believe and best accomplished with marking the case with a marker pen or other suitable marker and it's a good idea to have a case checker too, to see if the case may have been sized too much. Case checkers and ammo gauges save grief elsewhere.

After rereading my post and the great answers, along with more focus on the S Type Bushing Dies I am going to revisit them. However, I DO have some questions.

I was over on another forum aimed at shooting competition and the posters were discussing chambers, knowing the chamber, chamber neck diameter/sizes, reloading with certain neck tension and how much in size wise, etc. Yep, my brain hurts a little, but it made sense as crazy as that sounds.

I was wondering how one determines the chambers neck diameter? Then how does one know how much the loaded round neck diameter is, and how much to size the neck? Then to determine the bushing size one needs? How does one determine the neck thickness on the brass?

I know maybe some of it may be obvious and am going to try and hopefully explain it as I see it. First, one would measure the outside of the neck of a few fired cases. This would be pretty close to the chambers neck diameter. According to what many folks said on the other forum I want to have a round that is about .002 to .003 loaded round neck diameter less than chambers neck diameter. To be able to do that am I going to have to have a bushing in my resizing die smaller than that? And how much? Will I or should I turn the necks? (I know this is controversial and most places I read say no on a hunting rifle) So, anyway is going to translate into case neck tension? And how does one determine how much case neck tension I will need? I guess what it comes down to me asking is how do I know which bushings sizes to buy?

Thanks for all your help and posts.

quote:

I guess what it comes down to me asking is how do I know which bushings sizes to buy?

You measure a loaded rounds neck diameter. Buy a bushing .002" smaller to start, you may end up buying 3 bushings. If you have no dies, you will need to buy new brass, measure neck,before and after seating a bullet. If neck has expanded on seating, this is your loaded neck diameter. Or neck turn, seat bullet, measure neck. If you have a custom chamber with a tight neck, the gun smith that chambered the barrel will know its diameter. You would need to turn brass so that the loaded round is at least .002" smaller than the custom chambers neck measurement. If the custom chambers neck diameter is unknow, you need to make a casting of it using CERROSAFE® CHAMBER CASTING ALLOY. Proper neck tension- When bullet seating has made the neck measurement larger by .002" , this will give you about 35 to 45 lbs needed to pull the bullet.(223 caliber) Single shot rifles, need less, heavy recoiling rifles need more. On standard dies, just measure the expander, you will see that the expander measure from .0015" to as much as .004" under bullet diameter to be loaded.Brass spring back - When using a bushing, the brass springs out. When using an expander, the brass spring in. Brass always want to return to it original state. To seat a bullet in new brass without dies, start the bullet nose first, push in with a vise or by some other means.

quote:

Jim C: do you fool the collet die to only size the upper part of neck by putting washers on top of shell holder?

Al, I have done so in tests, years ago, but found no difference in results and it took more time so I dropped the washers.

hey Renegade
You do not need to worry about the chamber neck diameter if you have a factory rifle. Just load a round and measure the neck diameter of the loaded round. Now subtract .002 or .003 for that diameter and you have the bushing size. I have found that .003 neck tension works best in my rifles. When you get the dies take the expander off and put it in the box. You will not need it for bushing dies. When you over squeeze a brass with a standard die the expander has to pull back through and open it up again and this is where a lot of runout problems occur. This also overworks the brass and shortens the life. One advantage to bushing dies is to make the brass last longer.