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How effective are powder measure baffles really? Has anybody run tests comparing charge uniformity with and without a baffle? I ran tests with some measures many years ago and found that without a baffle they threw the same uniformity of charges all the way until the hopper was empty. Realization hit me then that of course, this would be the case - any other result could open up the measure makers to liability troubles! Truth of the matter may be that baffles would only be helpful if you had a LONG powder column - most reservoirs hold only modest amounts of powder. See my other post "Question for ya'll". | ||
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Never used one in any of my metallic loadings, or in my shotgun loadings. | |||
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I have an RCBS powder measure and I had to put a baffle in it. I filled it to the top with H110 and noticed that it was slowly dispensing heavier charges. After I put in the baffle I had no problems. [ 02-13-2003, 22:49: Message edited by: Sean ] | |||
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How much of an increase (& what was the charge)? Did you talk to RCBS about this? | |||
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quote:I had the same conclusion when I tested my powder measure. Then I noticed that it changed as it went from full to 1/2, then went back as it went to empty. I remember my trap load (shotgun) rangeing from 17.4 to 18.5 grains. Rifle and pistol were similar (RCBS Uniflow). I cut several baffles and found it easy to make baffles that don't change the way the powder meters. One of my failures looked just like the RCBS baffle (what ???). I ended up with a hole out as near the edge as possible with a large empty tent over the powder drop. Success!! Now all my powder measures have baffles in them. JerryO | |||
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i find if the powder level is kept the same in the hopper, with IMR powder, there will be less variation of the charge weight thrown. As the lever of powder goes down so does the charge weight. I put a funnel into the top of the powder hopper and keep the funnel full of powder. This is my baffle. | |||
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They aren't perfect, but they do noticeably reduce the variability of the charges in both my uniflow and my MEC. FWIW, Dutch. | |||
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I find your comments hard to believe! Think about it - if the charges vary significantly as you're claiming, this would open the measure makers to liability and safety claims BIG TIME! And therefore, baffles would be standard in all measures; in fact, makers would make it impossible to modify or change the powder reservoir! C'mon, guys - think about it. Maybe you're doing something else incorrect which is causing charge variance. I'm about ready to call RCBS and ask them about this. If your measure as sold by the manufacturer throws inaccurate charges ANYTIME which with near max loads could endanger you, you should be raising holy ___ with the maker!!! OR talking to a lawyer! | |||
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Reality break. IF someone blew something up with an overcharge on a handload I invite you to try to blame liability on the manufacturers of the tools you employ for said reloading. Good luck showing that a measure's variability was the cause of all of this. For the most part you are on your own with reloading short of buying a slow burning rifle powder that was mistakenly packed with fast pistol powder. I have no doubt that you would find a lawyer to file that case but the lawyer that would file that case is nowhere near smart enough to prove fault with a MEASURE. Reed | |||
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I have noticed in my throws, and though I use a powder measure I still weigh every charge on a scale, that without the baffle the throws are less consistent than with the baffle in place; this is especially so with stick powder. The powder measure was never intended to throw powder charges unchecked. That is why in every measure I have ever used, the instructions tell you to use in conjunction with a good scale and to check charges visually every charge and with a scale every ten throws or so. That alone relieves them of liability. If you just dump in powder and start charging cases without using a scale to make sure it is regulated and stays regulated, especially when working near max loads, then you are just asking for trouble. Without the baffle the charges vary by as much as 1/2 grain + -, but with the baffle in, I seldom get a variance of more than + - .2 grain with normal size loads of 40-80 gr. Of course when tossing charges a lot less or a lot more, the variance decreases or increases accordingly. | |||
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Oh really (Reed)! So the lawyer can't set up a measure in front of the jury, explain how it works (it IS a SIMPLE, EASY TO UNDERSTAND mechanism), how the amount of powder dispensed when excessive can lead to a blow-up, then demonstrate that the measure throws increasing charges as the powder hopper emptys, and then convince the jury of liability on the manufacturer's part! By the way, there ARE lawyers that also shoot and reload also! [ 02-14-2003, 21:06: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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quote:First off, we are talking about a variability of less than a grain generally. If you are that close to what is literally the "Bleeding" edge, it ain't the measure's fault if your gun blows on you. Second, the charges get SMALLER as the amount of powder in the measure becomes less because there is less weight packing it down. | |||
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Yeah, and then have somebody that uses the measure properly show that it is not an issue when used PROPERLY. There are so many variables that enter into the picture when moving to reloads that it becomes almost impossible to prove/disprove anything, not that some won't try. It's much the same with those rare instances where a factory rifle "blows up" and the manufacturer is sued. I know of one case in particular that as soon as it became known that the "blow-up" happended while using a hand loaded round the manufacturer won. Now that hand loaded round might have been much safer than some factory loads but nobody can speak to the quality of that handload at that point unlike factory loads loaded to independent specifications (SAAMI). Sorry but this is getting blown out of proportion. With most powder/case combinations the variability quoted previously is probably still within the safe realm of pressure. Reed | |||
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When I talk about significantly reducing variability, it is in the order of magnitude of going from a spread of about .5 grains (throwing about 27) to .2 grains. The .5 grains spread (some lower than target, some higher) isn't going to blow a gun. With the right technique, I can get short cut stick powders consistent to right around .2 or a maybe even a little less. Long stick powders, now that's another story alltogether. FWIW, Dutch. | |||
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Remember now, we're all having fun, right? Guess I should clarify things (maybe in my mind too!). Are these statements correct? (more or less): (A) - A baffle just helps you throw more consistent charges independent of how much powder is in the reservoir. (B) - A measure will not throw dangerously higher charges if you set the measure with the hopper near empty, refill it , and start throwing charges again without resetting (an easy thing to do if one is in a hurry and loading lots of ammo). | |||
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quote:Correct quote:How empty is near empty? What is dangerous? If you start weighing and setting charges when the powder level is down below where you can see it, I would say that is not smart. I always fill mine at least halfway before I start a new load. Why would you start a new load with an empty measure? Anyway, I would say "yes" to B, it would not be dangerous. We are talking about variations less than 1 grain. | |||
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YES OR NO ANSWERS ONLY PLEASE! I'm calling RCBS about this - I'll let you know what I find out (unless, of course, it makes me look stupid or uninformed!). [ 02-15-2003, 02:02: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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A. No. There must be a minimum amount of powder in the measure to ensure that the baffle is "submerged." B. Yes. First, this ties into my answer of (A) in that you should be using a minimum amount of powder in order to properly use the baffle. Nevertheless, you would be introducing variability into your use but I think you would be operating safely assuming you're not already at the ragged edge of acceptable pressure. I think the downforce of virtually no powder on an almost empty measure "cavity" would not be so different from the same cavity with 8oz of powder atop it. Good luck, Reed | |||
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OK OK OK (Joe Pesci impersonation), just got off the phone talking with a VERY nice, helpful, AND VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE gal at RCBS. She told me they began offering the powder baffle mainly because other makers were offering them. They MAY help you throw more consistent charges as I think we all can agree on. I asked her if the charge thrown with their measure WITH ANY POWDER(S) would change as the powder level changes and she unequivocably said NO and also confirmed my thinking that there's no way they could or would sell a measure that would do so. She told me an interesting tid bit: they used to have an old German Engineer that worked there who always operated the powder measure handle SLOWLY and exactly repeatably with NO knocking (up or down) and his results were extremely consistent, so much so, they considered recommending this technique in their measure's instructions. Any more questions, hmmm? [ 02-15-2003, 20:37: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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quote:Yes. Why do you feel only powder depth can vary the amount of powder thrown. You said 'NOTHING' can vary the powder charge or they wouldn't sell the measure. Apparently you have never used one!!! Take a measure and put it about 1/8 full of unique, and run the handle very gently, then dump some charges with sharp knocking three times on both ends. Then repeat this with the measure 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full. Now tell us how consistant it was. Several of us have found large variations doing this. So tell us how you find absolute consistancy. BTW, I could get a grain variation on my mec 600 because of the difference in shaking caused by different brands of shellcases. JerryO | |||
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Oh, Jerry (O): I just reviewed all my posts and no where did I say "nothing can vary the powder charge..." Pardon me, I HAVE used powder measures going back MANY years. So, so far you've done good, shooting yourself in the foot twice! ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} I KNOW you can get a variation in the charge thrown thru inconsistent operation of a measure. What we're talking about here is a PROGRESSIVE change in the charge thrown as the powder level in the hopper changes. I say (and RCBS or any other measure maker for that matter) that a measure will not do this and the makers would not sell one that gave any indication of doing so. So, to summarize: More consistent charges are thrown by consistent operation of the measure. A baffle MAY help consistency. A baffle is NOT to prevent hopper powder level from effecting amount of powder thrown for same measure setting. Measures are designed so hopper powder level will not effect amount of powder thrown. Bottom line: call any measure maker and run these questions past them. NOW, any more questions, hmmm? ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Whew - I need a drink! [ 02-15-2003, 23:29: Message edited by: sonofagun ] | |||
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quote:From your second post: quote:: I find your comments hard to believe! Think about it - if the charges vary significantly as you're claiming, this would open the measure makers to liability and safety claims BIG TIME! And therefore, baffles would be standard in all measures; in fact, makers would make it impossible to modify or change the powder reservoir! C'mon, guys - think about it. Maybe you're doing something else incorrect which is causing charge variance. I'm about ready to call RCBS and ask them about this. If your measure as sold by the manufacturer throws inaccurate charges ANYTIME which with near max loads could endanger you, you should be raising holy ___ with the maker!!! OR talking to a lawyer! end of quote::: It appeared to me that your claims here were about ANYTIME a powder variation occurred. Several of us have told you we have seen variations which were reduced by a baffle. You choose to disbelieve us, fine. That would seem to pretty much end the conversation. But why did you ask, if you were just going to tell us we didn't do what we said. JerryO PS. As to asking RCBS, they are right that their baffle is a waste of time. It is one of the shapes that I tried and it made no difference. Another pattern was effective, however. [ 02-16-2003, 10:12: Message edited by: JerryO ] | |||
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OH WELL, THE HORSE IS DEAD - GUESS I'LL STOP BEATING IT! | |||
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