"I was wondering why/how the turd in the violin case got an exemption on case head separation"

Not really, I believe Mr. Hull ran out of words.


F. Guffey

Before Hull there was Hatcher; Hull never read Hatcher. Hatcher increased the length of a 30/06 chamber by .060" to determine the effect a long chamber would have on a minimum length case when fired. Hatcher thought he knew what would happen when he started. Hatcher knew the case would not stretch .060" between the case head and case body.

Instead Hatcher's case got longer from the shoulder to the case head and shorter from the end of the neck to shoulder/neck juncture.

And then the violin case got bigger and the turd got smaller: I fired 8mm57 ammo in my 8mm06 chambers. Most reloaders would clime that is too much head space, those that have read SAAMI and understood what they were reading would know the difference in length between the two would be referred to as being 'clearance'.

Hatcher added .060" clearance, the clearance between the 8mm57 and 8MM06 is twice as much, that would be close to .127" clearance. After firing the 8mm57 cases in the 8mm06 chamber the fired cases were ejected with very long case bodies and the hint of a neck. And there was no stretch between the case head and case body.

Back to the violin case and turd philosophy; When the 8mm57 was fired in the 8/06 chamber nothing got serious until the case expanded to the chamber so it took time before the pressure got serious.

And then there is the rifle that has the firing pin that drives the case forward until the shoulder of the case collides with the shoulder of the chamber.

F. Guffey

Headspace is also the distance between your ears and how you use it.



Look at the center case below and ask yourself why the primer didn't back out more. And why didn't the cartridge have a case head separation.

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Look at the center case below and ask yourself why the primer didn't back out more. And why didn't the cartridge have a case head separation.

I did not ask myself, I was not the one that posted the turd in the violin case quote. Dick Culver fired the 308/7.62 in the M1 Garand.

I am the one that said a smith/reloader should be able to determine if the primer is going to protrude before the trigger is pulled. I am the one that fired the 8mm57 in the 8mm06 chamber. No primer protrusion and no case head separation. And all of that with .127" clearance.

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Headspace is also the distance between your ears and how you use it.

In Ecclesiastes, the book of vanity, it says it is better to receive the wrath of a wise man than the rhetoric of a fool.

F. Guffey

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Headspace is also the distance between your ears and how you use it.

And I wonder what you were using when you claimed the 7.62NATO/308W was just a small 30/06. I guess that was back when you were a rookie.

The 30/06 reamer will not clean up the 308 W chamber because the 308W case is about .015" larger at the casebody/shoulder juncture than the 30/06 chamber is at the same juncture.

If the rifle is a bolt type the 308W case has to be sized by the bolt when the bolt is closed.

And then there was the North Texas gunsmith that removed a 308W case from a 25/06. The shooter claimed it handled like a doll buggy and then it locked up. The shooter never noticed how difficult the round was to chamber.

F. Guffey

[QUOTE]Originally posted by F. Guffey:

The 30/06 reamer will not clean up the 308 W chamber because the 308W case is about .015" larger at the casebody/shoulder juncture than the 30/06 chamber is at the same juncture.

If the rifle is a bolt type the 308W case has to be sized by the bolt when the bolt is closed./QUOTE]

https://www.forgottenweapons.c...version%20Report.PDF

When the adapter falls out, or just isn't used, result = "rimless .45-70".

For those of you still scratching your head over "The rat turd in the violin case" it simply means the case has been full length resized.

This means the case body has been sized and does not touch the chamber walls. Meaning the case body has no guiding effect on the bullet in the throat.

A full length resized case is supported by the bolt face in the rear and by the bullet in the throat. And the only part of the case that contacts the chamber is the case shoulder.

The quote by the late Jim Hule was southern humor and is like saying "Is a bullfrog waterproof".

The subject here is "Full-Length Sizing v Neck Sizing in the .308". And Jim Hull, Kevin Thomas and Eric Cortina full length resize their cases, and Kevin Thomas and Eric Cortina shoot for Team Lapua USA.

Smallest 1000 yard group ever caught on camera!
Eric Cortina

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5j7VzBX7GU

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For those of you still scratching your head over "The rat turd in the violin case" it simply means the case has been full length resized.

You just made that up. Believe it is a bad habit to make excuses for bad behavior. If he could not size a case to fit a chamber he should have said so. If he was acting that silly about sizing a case to fit a chamber I wonder when I am supposed to start taking them seriously.

F. Gufffey

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it simply means the case has been full length resized.

As much time as you have wasted making excuses you could have educated all on the art of full length sizing. There are go-gage length chambers, no go-gage length chambers and then there is the field reject length chamber; I have 5 different length chambers between go-gage and no -go gage length chambers.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey

Read this again below, Kevin Thomas worked in the Sierra ballistic test lab, along with Jim Hull, and he now shoots for Team Lapua USA.

So F. Guffey did you ever work for Sierra or shoot for Lapua USA. There are 7.8 billion people on this earth so what makes you think you are the only one who knows how to reload.



Kevin Thomas
https://www.sierrabullets.com/...s/about-the-authors/

Spending his early years in Southern California, Kevin Thomas has been an avid shooter and student of firearms as far back as he can remember. Enlisting in the military immediately after high school, Kevin served four years in the U.S. Army, assigned to an Infantry Company with the 101st Airborne Division. His interest in marksmanship was noted by his commanding officer, and he was sent to and graduated from one of the first sniper schools to be taught by the division since the Vietnam war had ended. During that time, he also received his first exposure to for- Kevin Thomas mal competitive shooting, eventually spending nearly three years assigned to the 101st Marksmanship Training Unit (MTU). As part of his “duties” he engaged in NRA HighPower and Long Range competition, in which he holds a Master classification. After his military service, Kevin returned to Southern California, where he became a police officer in Los Angeles County. Combat Pistol IPSC/USPSA competition became Kevin’s primary competitive interest at that time, although he continued to shoot regularly at many of the area’s HighPower rifle matches. Frequently giving testimony or consultation on many criminal and civil court cases, Kevin became a court-accepted expert in the field of firearms and ballistics. He left law enforcement after six years, starting with Sierra in 1987 in the production department. Working with Sierra’s Chief Ballistician Martin (Jim) Hull, Kevin was one of the first technicians answering calls on the newly formed “tech-line.” Kevin took over as Manager of the Ballistic Service upon Hull’s retirement in 1989 and was promoted to Chief Ballistician in 1992. Since relocating to Missouri, he has continued to shoot a wide variety of disciplines, including HighPower, Rifle and Handgun Silhouette, USPSA Practical pistol and NRA Action pistol. At this writing, Kevin holds current classifications in at least eight different competitive disciplines (both rifle and pistol), and is a life member of both the NRA and the USPSA.

It mostly depends on if your a hunter or a taget shooter IMO..I full length resize most of my calibers with the exception of my 6x45 varmint, sometimes big game rifle, it has a bench rest chamber..

Feed and function take priority over accuracy in my case, but most of my hunting rifles all shoot and inch or better. I also full length resize my Savage 99s, mod. 94 Win. and all autos or pumps.

I'm wondering whether there would be any advantage of using a Redding body (only) die (to size body and bump shoulder) and use a Lee collet neck die in a two stage process. I've read that some benchrest shooters use this method and supposedly get improved accuracy. It would be interesting to see a comparison of accuracy with this method vs. F/L sizing. Does anyone here use a Redding Body Die with Lee collet neck die?

Not sure what this thread is all about; but when I read about firing 7.62 Nato ammo in 30-06s, I have to tell a war story;
On of my jobs was to command a Basic Training Company. We went to the M60 range and I would take an 03 Springfield, an Argentine 09, and a Win model 70 in 30-06. I didn't own a 308 at the time. This was just for a diversion when I got tired of firing the M60.
I and the sergeants fired many hundreds of rounds out of those rifles over a year. I knew there wouldn't be any problems and there was none. Of course the 30-06s produced rimless 45-70s and the argentine produced 7.65 cases with very short necks.
Lots of misconceptions about headspace, I find.
Oh, then I bought a Ruger 77 in 308 and took that to shoot up the extra ammo, And we fired many tracers too.

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I knew there wouldn't be any problems and there was none.

Why? I ask because you state there is a lot if misconceptions about head space.

"Lots of misconceptions about headspace, I find."

F. Guffey

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Originally posted by F. Guffey:

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If the rifle has a relatively large chamber, sizing the case down and firing it again will cause cases not to last as long.

Saeed, thank you, you are correct, I was wondering why/how the turd in the violin case got an exemption on case head separation. I do not believe "a way with words" can be an excuse for not knowing about case length and chamber length.

F. Guffey

I might have a little more confidence in Mr. Thomas as a qualified expert working for a prestigious manufacturer, if only he knew the difference between scraping and scrapping.

Saeed, I see that this thread quickly fell into rather heated territory. I wanted to go back to your original post, and thank you for what you did (instead of criticizing you for what you did not do). You conducted an experiment, you posted the data honestly, and you invited us to draw our own conclusions. This is an incredibly valuable service to the reloading community. As to those who think your experiment was not conducted the way that they believe proper, their answer should be to set up their own experiment and post the data honestly. That is the way knowledge gets advanced; not by carping about someone else's efforts.