I know that pressure at the gas port has to be kept moderate. I have loads for the 150 grain M2 ball but none for the heavier M2 AP bullets. can anyone help me?
A favorite story . about 30 years ago when I worked at a rifle range while I was in high school , The range master shot his reloads in his new M1 garand.
They must have been hot. That was my first experience seeing a rifle blow up and the shooter leaking red fluid(blood) .
He was ok but needed several stiches in his face and hand.
Be careful.
I also saw Gen Curtis La May (sp) Shoot several of his home made guns. One being a old cannon that the barrel broke away from its mounts and shot backwards hitting a car in the parkinglot and caveing in its door. Luckely noone was standing behind it.
Isn't 4350 a bit slow for the M1? I have read not to use any powder slower than 4064 due to the fact slower powders produce too much pressure at the gas port. I think I will stick with 4895 or 4064.
The military load for the 165 gr AP round is 53 grains of WWII era 4831, which is very close to present day IMR4350. Actually, 53 grains of IMR4350 and a Sierra 165 GK matches within statistical variation the specs for the Military AP.
The pressures will be higher at the gas port with 4895 or 4064 with the 165 grain pill, than they are with the 152 grain pill.
By the way, you aren't really supposed to shoot AP in a M1. AP is for machine guns, which didn't have the wimpy op rod.
ASS_CLOWN
Posts: 1673 | Location: MANY DIFFERENT PLACES | Registered: 14 May 2004
Quote: The military load for the 165 gr AP round is 53 grains of WWII era 4831, which is very close to present day IMR4350. Actually, 53 grains of IMR4350 and a Sierra 165 GK matches within statistical variation the specs for the Military AP.
The pressures will be higher at the gas port with 4895 or 4064 with the 165 grain pill, than they are with the 152 grain pill.
By the way, you aren't really supposed to shoot AP in a M1. AP is for machine guns, which didn't have the wimpy op rod.
ASS_CLOWN
Thanks Clown, I will save the AP for the FAL as I can adjust the gas setting for it.
Quote: The military load for the 165 gr AP round is 53 grains of WWII era 4831, which is very close to present day IMR4350. Actually, 53 grains of IMR4350 and a Sierra 165 GK matches within statistical variation the specs for the Military AP.
The pressures will be higher at the gas port with 4895 or 4064 with the 165 grain pill, than they are with the 152 grain pill.
By the way, you aren't really supposed to shoot AP in a M1. AP is for machine guns, which didn't have the wimpy op rod. ASS_CLOWN
I believe ALL .30/'06 G.I. ball ammo loaded during WWII uses 4895 or a ball-powder equivalent. 4831 was 20mm cannon powder, and was NEVER used in anything smaller until Hodgdon started selling it as a surplus powder. When this happened, Hodgdon called it "IMR 4350 DATA powder", because no-one had yet developed ANY small arms loading data for it. Using 4350 data was safe, because surplus 4831 IS A LOT SLOWER THAN ANY 4350, AND A LOT SLOWER THAN IMR 4831. IT IS EVEN A LITTLE SLOWER THAN PRESENT-DAY H4831 ALSO!!
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with using G.I. AP ammo in a rifle! Army Ordnance did extensive testing of the use of it in rifles because they expected AP to wear out barrels faster than M2 ball. They ound that, whereas rifle barrel accuracy begins deteriorating, albeit very slowly, from round 1 of regular M2 ball ammo that is fired, accuracy actually IMPROVED for the first 1500 rounds or thereabouts when AP was fired instead of ball, and overall barrel accuracy life was about the same for both kinds of ammo!!
One should avoid two things when loading for an M1: Use bullets of 168-grains or less, 180 is an absolute maximum weight; use powders no SLOWER than IMR 4320 or the equivalent. IMR 4350 is too slow, and H4831 is WAY TOO SLOW. The slower powders are the ones that produce too-high gasport pressures, not vice-versa! The danger from this with an M1 is it is possible to get a bent operating rod if the action cycles too violently. It may NOT happen, but it CAN!!
IMR 4895 and IMR 4064 are the GO-TO IMR powders for the M1. There are perhaps a few others, in the VV line and the Alliant line for example, that are as good. I just have no experience using any of them in my M1s. My M1 match load is the Sierra 168-grain Matchking with 47 grains of IMR 4064 and F210 primers in FA 59 match brass. For hunting, I change to the Sierra 165-grain HPBT with everything else the same as the match load. But some people use Matchking bullets for hunting also, despite the fact that Sierra says "they're NOT HUNTING BULLETS"!!
Eldeguello. What kind of accuracy do you get from your Garand using Matchkings? Is it a match gun? The reason I ask is that I was not aware that they were accurate enough to justify use of that kind of bullet. I have been using 172gr. match bullets with disappointing results, so was planning on switching to hunting bullets. Peter.
GO to YAHOO web site and look up IMR 4895. the government loaded countless tons of 4895 in WWII but for a bolt action I load 52.0 grains of 4064 with 150 grain B.T.
Posts: 1137 | Location: SouthCarolina | Registered: 07 July 2004
Hornady has a section on loads for the M1. I'll have to disagree w/ AC on the use of 4831/4350 in the Garand. Yes it can be done but you'll eventually bend that op. rod. Powders in the 4895-4320 range will work better. As far as match bullets, if you have a match rifle you will definetly see a diff. in using a match bullet. If the 168gr aren't working give Sierra's 155gr palma bullet a try.
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001
Improper powder selection can damage the Garand's operating system, even if the loads themselves are safe. Powders in the medium range (IMR4064, 4895) should be used. 46.5 - 47.0 grains of IMR4895 with 147FMJ's works very well in my M1.
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002
Quote: Do not use anything slower than 4064 in the Garand. Do not believe anything that AC writes.
JCN
I did not intend to use any thing slower than 4064 as I agree the slower powders will build the pressure put on the gas port. I can't decide if I will use 4895 or 4064 as I use neither for any thing I reload for. I have seen 4064 used by others for the 7.5 Swiss so I might go that route. Right now I have good results though with 4350 in the Swiss. I was hopping to find 3031 would work well as I have good results with it in my .308 for light bullet hunting loads. Does anyone have sucess with 4064 in the .308? I like to keep the number of powders I need to a minimum. I do not load .308 for the military rifles as surplus is so cheap.
4350 is too slow to be used in the garand. Slow powders OR heavy bullets will at minimum bend your op-rod. The combination of both will destroy your rifle.
4895 or 4064 are the time proven powders for functioning and accuracy for the M-1 Garand.
Posts: 1985 | Location: The Three Lower Counties (Delaware USA) | Registered: 13 September 2001
I've used BLC-2 in Garand loadings and had no problems. I've had good results with it in 308 loads also. I think there's a book/article out there titled "Loading For The M1 Garand". You might want to check that out. And yes, 4064 works well in the 308.
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002
Speaking of ball powders, I have had great luck with WCC-852F. It is a 30-06 pull down powder. I have made and fired thousands of moderate loads with 173 grain bullets. Very accurate and cheap.
Posts: 813 | Location: Left Coast | Registered: 02 November 2000
You will never regret having a can of either 4064 or 4895 around the house. Send me a PM and I'll fax or mail some great Garand loading articles to you. JCN
Posts: 7158 | Location: Snake River | Registered: 02 February 2004
Peter, my M1 is an International Harvester which was given the National Match treatment using the instruction book from the NRA. It will typically shoot 7 of 8 rounds into an inch or less @ 100 yards, but always throws ONE FLYER which opens a 8-shot group up to 1.5" or even 2", no matter what I do.
Regardless of the ammunition, it has always done this! The flyer has always been closer to the main group when using the 47 grain load of 4064 with the Sierra 168-grain Matchking than with any other ammo I've tried. However, the accuracy is good enough for shooting on the Army A and B targets out to 600 yards.
