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Can I neck size cases, using a full length sizer. If so, How. we make plans and GOD laughs. | ||
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You cant truely neck size using a full length sizing die unless your case has a steep taper to it. You can "partial size" the case by adjusting the die to size about 2/3 of the neck. You will get minimal resizing of the body of the brass with enough of the neck sized to hold the bullet while leaving part of the expanded neck to help center the case in the bore. This works well in most single and bolt action rifles with bottle-neck cases. I do the same thing with my neck sizers. Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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For a great many years, what Paul refers to as "partial full length" resizing was called "neck sizing" and it was referred to as such in the reloading books. And they told you how to do it. Then someone figured out that with a little smoke and mirrors and a couple of articles by trained gun rag writers, they could sell an extra die. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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wasbeeman, The difference is that with the full length sizing die you do size the body of the case to some extent when trying to size the neck only. With my neck sizing die I only size the neck and only to the depth that I set. It leaves the brass the way it came out of the chamber so it fits the chamber better for better accuracy. (in my experience with my guns and ammo) Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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Perhaps with some of the short fat cartridges that may be true however with your traditional cartridges, ie, 30-06, the H&H series, the body taper is enough (to ensure faultless extraction) that you can indeed neck size with a F/L die. And too, even if the die comes in contact with the shoulders of the case, IMO, it merely helps to keep the case aligned. I've never owned a neck die, although it seems to be all the rage, especially from a marketing point of view, as using my rock and a rusty nail type of reloading, I've been able to achieve the accuracy which I feel I and the rifle are capable of. Having won two state championships in WV, (did I mention I've never owned a neck sizing die) I feel that I've pretty well worked to my potential. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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The neck is straight the body is tapered. In testing I've done in the past there is very little if any contact with the body. In my opinion if you really resize the body while you are doing a partial then you have a chamber issue. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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A chamber "issue" is a non-issue really unless it affects accuracy. I have a Remington 03A3 that I have used a neck sizing die almost from the time I began reloading in the 1960's. I did attempt full length sizing for a while until I began getting "J" splits in the body of my cases. I went back to neck sizing and no more problems. My accuracy is better with neck sized cases and I have gotten used to shooting 3/4" and under five shot groups with it. I only necksize the first 2/3 of the neck allowing the front of the case to be better aligned with the front of the chamber. The advantages that I have EXPERIENCED are longer case life, more powder capacity, and better accuracy. Your mileage may vary. Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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I suppose you guys realize the long angle on the 30-06 family of cases and trigonometry You can set your shell holder for a .0534 gap and only leave your brass .001 bigger vs. a Full Resize with zero shell holder gap .083 above on the 7-08 for .001 on the body Just math..... ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Quite obviously my mileage does vary. Any powder gains one would get between a neck sized case and a Partial full length sized case would have to be pretty nebulous. I'm not one to red line my cartridges so it's pretty much of a non issue with me. I don't know what a "J" split is but I don't think I've ever had one so I can't comment on that. As far as case longevity goes, I've reloaded cases until I was just sick of looking at them and so started a new batch. Again, I think this case longevity thing is much more of a marketing ploy than a reality. Kinda like the folks that go to the trouble of having a rifle AI'ed and then go through the labour of fire forming brass. Back before every kid on the block had a Chrony, they used to do it so's they could brag about the phenomenal velocity gains they got. Once that was proven to be so much organic fertilizer, they decided they were doing it so's they wouldn't have to trim their cases so often. Let me add my usual disclaimer: Reload as it pleases you. Just don't assume or pretend that you're on some moral high ground doing it your way. It's not necessarily better, it's just yours. the same, of course, can be said for my way. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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For the non mathematically inclinded there is also another way. It may be more fool proof since dies and chambers and fired cases may not adhere to the SAAMI drawings. Trim the neck completely off of one of your fired cases. Drop it into the FL sizer die. Measure the projection of the case from the die. Subtract your shell holder depth. Where the case body hangs up the FL die starts sizing the case. If you size the case body any with a FL die it starts pushing the shoulder forward and may make it difficult to chamber.
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You can only claim to know the best way when you have tried it both ways a statistically valid number of times.
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I'm a shoulder bumper myself......and I measure it to be sure SAAMI means nothing to me ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Exactly.....what SR4759 said! Most cases, depending on body taper, will begin to grow in headspace length.....before a case is "neck-sized-with-a-full-length-sizing-die". I liken it to a "squeezing-a-hotdog" effect. But.....if you don't mind preloading the bolt lugs with medium, or hard, bolt closures.....have at it. I do mind. Besides......neck sizers are fairly cheap..........usually.  Hope this helps. edit: Here's a pic of one of my Precision Mic set-ups. It's great for actually measuring headspace changes during sizing. I've made adapters, for different cases, over the years. Kevin  | |||
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I have never, ever, never, ever had a case where neck sizing with a f/l die pushed the shoulders forward. And I have been doing for a long, long time. I don't know what causes the problem with some folks but I'm gonna guess that the die is set up wrong to begin with. I sort of agree with SR in a different manner so to speak. To begin with, once a newbie has his feet on the ground, I think he should neck turn, uniform primer pockets, remove the little trap doors from the inside of the flash hole that supposedly occurs with you have punched flash holes, weigh cases, weigh bullets, make a total mess by filling cases with water, and just load his shelves up with "thingies". Each one promising to be the straight road to Jerusalem. Just do all those things. But only do them one at a time. And once they become proficient at it, ask themselves: Does this give me greater accuracy? Is any gain worth the effort. And, if not, discard that facet. Once they have waded through all of those "must do" items and discarded all of the ones that did not help, then they'll find they have a pretty streamline method of reloading. One that enables them to spend more trigger time and less time chasing their tails. Once they start getting more trigger time, they'll find out that their ammo gets better and better. folks need to remember that not too long ago, bench shooters were setting records using tools that were quite similar to a Lee Loader. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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 Since I shoot more wildcats than std not many SAAMI numbers.As to my chamber comment. I have had a couple factory rifles that the chambers where cut in such a way that if I only neck sized the case didn't want to chamber unless it happened to line up with the way it was fired originally. Since the chamber is the limiting factor not the brass powder capacity FL or neck sized isn't going to give you EXTRA powder and velocity. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Yeah, I'd like an explanation as to how neck sizing with a f/l sizer die pushes the neck forward. | |||
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1. Any time a sizer works on case side walls, the shoulder gets sqweeezed forward; that's why cases 'stretch' and have to have the shoulders set back in the first place (cases do NOT normally stretch due to expander drag). 2. Nothing is accomplished by neck sizing below the lowest point of loaded bullet to neck contact. 3. IF an FL sizer is used to attempt neck sizing and the sizer is turned down enough for firm body contact at any point, it's NOT "neck sizing." 4. The possibility of sucessfully neck sizing with an FL die depends on (a) if the die isn't screwed down enough to make hard case body contact, (b) how tapered the case is so body contact isn't made too early, (c) the actual diameter of the chamber vs. the actual diameter of the die: i.e., a largeish die and smallish chamber is more likely to work, the reverse is less so. 5. Neck sizing with the same FL die is unlikely to increase either accuracy or increase case life. Most cases fail from neck/mouth splits and using the same die is going to work harden necks/mouths exactly the same. 6. Neck sizing became the rage after it became known that BR competitors using custom single shot rifles with very tight chambers necked. Common sense got drowned out when some tried to point out that factory rifles/chambers would see little difference, at best, and necking can actually be worse. Die makers shrugged, smiled and met market demands, so lots of unneeded neck dies are now avaiable - perhaps especially so for the various bushing sizer dies BR shooters now use! | |||
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 YES  roger  Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I'll largely agree with Roger, but I'll qualify it a bit and make my answer "usually". As others have pointed out, if your chamber is near maximum dimensions and your die is near minimum dimensions, then the body might contact the die before much of the neck has been sized. This is unusual, but I have seen dies and chambers so incompatible that the rare phenomenon of "pushing the shoulder forward" occurs. Typically, the case has to go into the die to "just" the wrong place, and if inserted either less or more deeply in the die the case will chamber fine; but if sized to "just" the wrong place it will not want to chamber. As I say, this is rare. | |||
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In all but one of the 40+ rifles I have reloaded for, a FL or Body Die will start sizing the body at the pressure ring and squeeze the case like a balloon, thus increasing the distance from case head to shoulder datum measurement. The one is my Hart 280AI with a Redding Body Die where the chamber is so tight or the body die so large that no case body sizing occurs. This creates a minor binding problem in the chamber with multiple firing on a case but is not a big deal. The answer to the question is yes - partially  the break point at which this becomes possible/impossible is ~3/4 turn up from the shell holder but this will vary depending upon the relationship between the chamber size and interior die dimensions ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Glad to hear from you Woods Don't be so much of a stranger around here.....this place has went down hill without members like you ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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“I suppose you guys realize the long angle on the 30-06 family of cases and trigonometry” Jim Thor, being you and Woods are close have him explain what I am suppose to realize, I will assume everyone knows but me. F. Guffey | |||
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I quit trying to give advice here Its the horse to water saying ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Don't know any Jim Thor and perhaps you are assuming too much. From your many knowledgeable posts I would think that you know, there is just a failure of communication ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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