I've got a bunch of once-fired .300 Weatherby brass that I'm about to reload. I've read that most reloaders like to full-length resize belted magnum cases. Is this true? If so, what's the reason?

I plan on loading only to Weatherby spec OAL, but I'm curious why I wouldn't want to neck size or P-FL resize the cases.

Because most reloaders are hunters, full-length resizing is insurance that one's reloads will function 100% correctly every time. Varmint hunters and other high volume shooters neck size because it helps prolong case life (and a bunch of other reasons). The trick to working with belted cases is to treat them like any other case and head space from the case head to shoulder. The well dressed case wears a belt, but it doesn't do much...

HH, I don't know where you heard that. The rifle's chambers for belted cartridges headspace on the belt which makes chamber uniformity kind of a mystery in a way. I like to neck size belted magnum cases so that there is minimal working of the brass from pulling it in and the letting it stretch when fired. After a few firings I have to F/L size it just enough to chamber easily again and start the process of neck sizing again. Usually the case ends its life when the neck developes a crack from sizing. I should start annealing the pricier stuff in order to soften the necks and make it last longer, but....

I don't full length size belted cases. There is no more reason to do it with them than with any other case.

In most case the belt doesn't do anything but:

1. In a straight walled case, headspace has to be on the mouth (which would give an inadequate crimp with heavy recoiling cartridges), on a rim or on a belt.

2. In long tapered cases like the 375 H&H Magnum & the 300 H&H Magnum the belt is needed because their long tapered necks are inadequate for good headspaceing.

3. The belt is what makes it possible to shoot a 458 Win. Mag. cartridge in a 458 Lott chamber and a 375 H&H Mag. cartridge in a 375 Weatherby chamber.

as for "hunters" that like to be sure that the resized and reloaded rounds fit in their rifle?

full length sizing isn't "Being sure".

Actually cycling all the rounds through the
action? that is absolute.

And personally if I don't have to work the brass more than resizing the neck and it makes expen$ive bra$$ last longer? so much the better!

If you want to full length size? go for it.

But there are other ways to be "sure"

If you are loading for a dangerous game rifle and you don't run 100% of your ammunition through the action to verify that it fits... you are setting yourself up for a well deserved "darwin award"

AD

With Wtby brass you want to make it last as long as possible.

Set up your gun in a vise and try the cases in the chamber after depriming. When you set up the gun, raise and lower the bolt handle to get some kind of feel as to how the bolt closes on an empty chamber. If the bolt is a controlled round feed, then you may have to take out the magazine and feed the empty case up into the bolt face from the bottom. Now chamber the unsized case and see how it compares. If there is no additional binding then you are clear to neck size only.

If you feel additional binding caused by the case then you will have to size the entire case. Set the die up so that is well back from a Full Length setting (usually about 1/4 turn up from where it contacts the shell holder when the shell holder is raised on the ram) and then start threading the die in a little at a time until the bolt will close with little to no resistance from the case.

Partial Full Length Resizing is when you just start to relieve the "crush fit" but before you size the case so much that all the "crush fit" is gone. That will work the case the least and make your brass last the longest.

I've always partial sized so the case headspaces on the shoulder (ie, 7RM) like it should.

The problem with this brass is that some of them were fired through my long-gone Vanguard, and some of them were fired through my newer Mark V. This was all done before I got into reloading. (Thank GOD I had the foresight to save all of these once-fired cases in the event I ever did get into reloading)! As a result, I did not bother to keep track of which ones came from which rifle.

Let's say that every one of them chamber in my Mark V, regardless of which rifle they were fired in. Would there be any downside to P-FL or neck sizing the lot of them, despite the fact that they'd all be different dimensions? Or, would it be more consistent for accuracy purposes to FL resize this time and then switch to P-FL or neck sizing once they'd all been refired in the same gun?

Hokie, welcome to AR! I would chamber each piece of brass after neck sizing. If they all chamber then you are good to go, just don't expect match grade accuracy with the first set of reloads. It sounds like you don't have either set of dies and are trying to figure out what to get. If this is so, and you are a member of Gateway, just put up a sign and see if someone will (FL) resize then for you. I don't know whether Jorge who posts here has the same caliber rifle.
Peter.

Hokie, there is a guy "Coltchris" selling 300 Weatherby brass and dies on the Classifieds.
Peter.

Thanks guys. I actually do have all of the dies (neck, FL, and competition seating dies). All Redding stuff.

I'm also a member of Gateway. I'm surprised to see another Jax guy on this board. I'm new to reloading, but I've been shooting at Gateway on and off for several years.

quote:

Originally posted by Hokie Hunter:
The problem with this brass is that some of them were fired through my long-gone Vanguard, and some of them were fired through my newer Mark V. This was all done before I got into reloading. (Thank GOD I had the foresight to save all of these once-fired cases in the event I ever did get into reloading)! As a result, I did not bother to keep track of which ones came from which rifle.

Let's say that every one of them chamber in my Mark V, regardless of which rifle they were fired in. Would there be any downside to P-FL or neck sizing the lot of them, despite the fact that they'd all be different dimensions? Or, would it be more consistent for accuracy purposes to FL resize this time and then switch to P-FL or neck sizing once they'd all been refired in the same gun?

Well there is one basic concept that you haven't grasped yet, not being snotty just trying to point out an inconsistancy in your statement above.

Like Peter says, if they chamber after neck sizing then you are good to go.

But you asked if you could PFLR, FL or Neck Size the cases if they fit in your chamber. In PFLR or FL resizing you are pushing the shoulder back. With PFLR you are setting the shoulder to a position from .001" to .002" from contact with the chamber. If your shoulder is not far enough forward from firing for contact at the shoulder then you can not move the shoulder of the case closer so that you can then position it with PFLR (there is a caveat to that but for the sake of less confusion I will not go into that now).

In other words if your case chambers easily and the shoulder is still .004" from contact with the shoulder then you can not PFLR. You could neck size only and in effect the case would be Full Length Resized because there is not contact at the shoulder (you would be sizing the case body though).

My advice, get a Hornady Headspace Gauge (on sale for $30.00 ) so you can figure out exactly what is going on.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by Hokie Hunter:
The problem with this brass is that some of them were fired through my long-gone Vanguard, and some of them were fired through my newer Mark V. This was all done before I got into reloading. (Thank GOD I had the foresight to save all of these once-fired cases in the event I ever did get into reloading)! As a result, I did not bother to keep track of which ones came from which rifle.

Let's say that every one of them chamber in my Mark V, regardless of which rifle they were fired in. Would there be any downside to P-FL or neck sizing the lot of them, despite the fact that they'd all be different dimensions? Or, would it be more consistent for accuracy purposes to FL resize this time and then switch to P-FL or neck sizing once they'd all been refired in the same gun?

Well there is one basic concept that you haven't grasped yet, not being snotty just trying to point out an inconsistancy in your statement above.

Like Peter says, if they chamber after neck sizing then you are good to go.

But you asked if you could PFLR, FL or Neck Size the cases if they fit in your chamber. In PFLR or FL resizing you are pushing the shoulder back. With PFLR you are setting the shoulder to a position from .001" to .002" from contact with the chamber. If your shoulder is not far enough forward from firing for contact at the shoulder then you can not move the shoulder of the case closer so that you can then position it with PFLR (there is a caveat to that but for the sake of less confusion I will not go into that now).

In other words if your case chambers easily and the shoulder is still .004" from contact with the shoulder then you can not PFLR. You could neck size only and in effect the case would be Full Length Resized because there is not contact at the shoulder (you would be sizing the case body though).

My advice, get a Hornady Headspace Gauge (on sale for $30.00 ) so you can figure out exactly what is going on.

I actually do have a Hornady headspace gauge. I'll break it out this afternoon.

So, unless I have slight contact at the case shoulder, then I'm really not going to see the accuracy advantages of a P-FL or neck-sized case. If my fired cases are still too short for such contact, then the goal is just to resize as minimally as I can until such time that I have contact, then back off in tiny increments until they chamber. Sound correct?

Correct, except that you will be neck sizing only until the case grows enough so that you can choose to PFLR or FLR. So you may have excellent accuracy while just neck sizing but you are having a case that is in transition and you will not be able to duplicate it's exact dimensions again on that brass.

For example, I don't have a 300 Weatherby but we'll use a 300 win mag, on my Beretta Mato 300 win mag I take the following measurements with the Headspace Gauge (after installing the gauge on the calipers always rezero it at 2" exactly)

New cases - 2.253" (subtracting the 2" for the attachement)
Once fired - 2.270" - Neck Size
Twice fired - 2.272" (slight crush fit) - Neck Size
3 times fired - 2.2725" (crush fit) - PFLR

So when the case develops the crush fit then I can push the shoulder back .0005" to .001" for minimal shoulder contact and that is PFLR. I can then duplicate that exact shoulder position on subsequent reloadings to increase the consistancy and that is the first stepping stone to accuracy. But until you get the crush fit then you have a case in transition.

There is a way to hasten the process which is to resize the case body which will push the shoulder forward. I have found that to only push the shoulder .001" or so and if you do that then that was less accurate than just neck sizing until the case grew to crush fit naturally.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
Correct, except that you will be neck sizing only until the case grows enough so that you can choose to PFLR or FLR. So you may have excellent accuracy while just neck sizing but you are having a case that is in transition and you will not be able to duplicate it's exact dimensions again on that brass.

For example, I don't have a 300 Weatherby but we'll use a 300 win mag, on my Beretta Mato 300 win mag I take the following measurements with the Headspace Gauge (after installing the gauge on the calipers always rezero it at 2" exactly)

New cases - 2.253" (subtracting the 2" for the attachement)
Once fired - 2.270" - Neck Size
Twice fired - 2.272" (slight crush fit) - Neck Size
3 times fired - 2.2725" (crush fit) - PFLR

So when the case develops the crush fit then I can push the shoulder back .0005" to .001" for minimal shoulder contact and that is PFLR. I can then duplicate that exact shoulder position on subsequent reloadings to increase the consistancy and that is the first stepping stone to accuracy. But until you get the crush fit then you have a case in transition.

There is a way to hasten the process which is to resize the case body which will push the shoulder forward. I have found that to only push the shoulder .001" or so and if you do that then that was less accurate than just neck sizing until the case grew to crush fit naturally.

If I neck size until the case grows using a standard Redding neck (Nk) die (non-bushing), am I likely to get any push back of the shoulder or forming of the case? I know that it's not supposed to, but...

There is a collet die that I run my belted cases through to size right down and around the belt. This is the place where my cases go out of spec the most. With this die I can shoot the belted cases until the primer pockets become too loose to reload again. I think the die is by Accurate Inovations. I full length size and then size with the collet die. It does extend case life.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
There is a collet die that I run my belted cases through to size right down and around the belt. This is the place where my cases go out of spec the most. With this die I can shoot the belted cases until the primer pockets become too loose to reload again. I think the die is by Accurate Inovations. I full length size and then size with the collet die. It does extend case life.

It's Innovative Technologies and they can be found here --> http://www.larrywillis.com/

Ken....

Fred - "I've always partial sized so the case headspaces on the shoulder (ie, 7RM) like it should."

Fred, you are correct except for your terminoligy - actually YOU ARE FL SIZING when you make your cases fit the chamber! Sizing the "normal" way is usually over resizing and that's what leads to head seperations.

Most, if not all, FL sizers are made to size to the minimum chamber specs but any other chamber size means the brass is made too small for proper fit and that's NOT good FL sizing.

Keep it up!

The belt on mag cases is for sales pitches, not really used for headspacing and has not beeen so used for 50 years or so.

If people understood that belted magnums should be treated the same way one treats a 22 Hornet I think the misunderstandings would go way down.

In a 22 Hornet, there are 2 separate issues- the case wants to headspace off the rim, but the best accuracy is obtained when it headspaces off the shoulder.

Of course, if all you do is bump the shoulder eventually (sooner rather than later in some cases) the body gets too large and needs to be resized. Most Hornet fanatics seem to be in agreement the best way to deal with this is with 2 dies- a body die and a neck die. Neck size and if there is trouble chambering use the body die. That way you do not have to run your brass all the way into a FL sizer die which sets back the shoulder from optimum and also works the brass too much.

Now in the belted cartridges you have the same issues- a belt the case actually headspaces from and a fixed distance from that you have a shoulder usually. Whereas the other dimensions are hopefully held to a tolerance, the distance between the belt and the shoulder can vary. If it is too long at least the gun will digest most any round reliably, even if oversize. So again we have this issue, the base needs resizing and the shoulder needs it too, but the distance in the chamber of the gun between the two may not be the same distance as measured in the sizing die. As seen with the Hornet, there really needs to be 2 separate operations if these 2 measurements do not match up. I believe the Accurate Innovations die is one solution for those inclined, I have heard of people also just chucking them to the belt into the proper 5C collet to squeeze them down. I also do not see why a person couldn't just simply cut the top off a conventional FL sizer die and use the bottom half. The main issue is to recognize exactly what the problem is and how it may not be able to be addressed with just one standard FL sizer die.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
If people understood that belted magnums should be treated the same way one treats a 22 Hornet I think the misunderstandings would go way down.

In a 22 Hornet, there are 2 separate issues- the case wants to headspace off the rim, but the best accuracy is obtained when it headspaces off the shoulder.

Of course, if all you do is bump the shoulder eventually (sooner rather than later in some cases) the body gets too large and needs to be resized. Most Hornet fanatics seem to be in agreement the best way to deal with this is with 2 dies- a body die and a neck die. Neck size and if there is trouble chambering use the body die. That way you do not have to run your brass all the way into a FL sizer die which sets back the shoulder from optimum and also works the brass too much.

Now in the belted cartridges you have the same issues- a belt the case actually headspaces from and a fixed distance from that you have a shoulder usually. Whereas the other dimensions are hopefully held to a tolerance, the distance between the belt and the shoulder can vary. If it is too long at least the gun will digest most any round reliably, even if oversize. So again we have this issue, the base needs resizing and the shoulder needs it too, but the distance in the chamber of the gun between the two may not be the same distance as measured in the sizing die. As seen with the Hornet, there really needs to be 2 separate operations if these 2 measurements do not match up. I believe the Accurate Innovations die is one solution for those inclined, I have heard of people also just chucking them to the belt into the proper 5C collet to squeeze them down. I also do not see why a person couldn't just simply cut the top off a conventional FL sizer die and use the bottom half. The main issue is to recognize exactly what the problem is and how it may not be able to be addressed with just one standard FL sizer die.

So, if I understand you correctly...at some point I will have case expansion just forward of the belt that will prevent chambering. Most people would FL resize at this point, but that will push the shoulder back unnecessarily. This die fixes the expansion forward of the belt, allowing you to P-FL resize (or neck size with a bushing die) the rest of the case.

What happens when the rest of the case expands to a point where it needs to be FL resized? Does this ever happen?

quote:

What happens when the rest of the case expands to a point where it needs to be FL resized? Does this ever happen?

You use the FL sizer die and use it as one normally would where it is set up to bump the shoulder. This will resize everything except that pesky bulge that forms down by the belt.

Hey Hokie, Just read through the thread and I can see how a person could get confused.

The below does not include the Lee Collet Dies, only Standard RCBS and Redding style Dies.

FLR = Full Length Resizing is Resizing a Case so it is similar to a Factory Cartridge in size. This allows it to fit in ALL firearms chambered for that cartridge. This should be done for ALL Cartridges which will be carried in Dangerous Game country to lessen the opportunity for jams if a piece of trash(Pine Needle, etc.) gets in the chamber.

P-FLR = Partial Full Length Resizing is properly done by adjusting the FLR Die so that the "Case" has a slight crush fit(Zero Headspace) when chambered. This provides long case life and the best possible opportunity for the greatest accuracy.

NS/wFL = Neck Sizing can be done, in some situations(depends on the chamber and Die dimensions) with a FLR Die so that it only Resizes about 1/2 the Case Neck. Some folks love this Method.

NS = Neck Sizing with a Neck Sizing Die only Resizes the Neck. In most situations, it is not necessary to Lube the Case Body, but is still a good idea to Lube the inside of the Neck. The Case Body is going to continue growing slightly in width/length and at some point the Body will need to be Resized some amount - your choice. Not Lubing the Case Body would be a disaster "for me", cause I feel sure I would eventually manage to get a Case stuck in the Die, but lots of folks do it.
-----

So you have a Stoney Point "Thingy". Best of luck to you with it.
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The portion of the Case in front of the Belt that Mark has been describing is the Pressure Ring. It is the widest portion of the Case Body forward of the Belt on a Fired Case. (Same general position on non-belted cases.)

There are apparently some combinations of Chambers and Dies which will create a bind just as Mark described. I've never experienced the problem, but believe the guys that say they have seen it.

You can spend $100 on the Inovative Tech Body Resizer and that will squash it back into shape "if" it is a problem.

Or you could contact the Die manufacturer(if it is RCBS or Redding), describe the problem and they may ask you to send them your Die and a few of the "suspect" Cases to be slightly modified at a much lower cost, or No Charge.
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However, if you Hunt in Dangerous Game country, just FLR those cases and relegate them to Practice Ammo after 2-3 firings.

If you are not in Dangerous Game country, P-FLR or NS as you desire.

Don't worry about the Pressure Ring unless it is one of the Rare instances where it creates a problem for you. I've not had it create a problem in ANY of my rifles in over five decades of Reloading.
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That 300WbyMag is a great cartridge and very versitle. Not every round has to be at MAX Power.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

FLR = Full Length Resizing is Resizing a Case so it is similar to a Factory Cartridge in size. This allows it to fit in ALL firearms chambered for that cartridge. This should be done for ALL Cartridges which will be carried in Dangerous Game country to lessen the opportunity for jams if a piece of trash(Pine Needle, etc.) gets in the chamber.


So you have a Stoney Point "Thingy". Best of luck to you with it.

Hey HC

Got to disagree with taking it back to factory cartridge dimensions and feel like that is unnecessary and leads to case head separations. The reason is that factory cases have way too much excess headspace. It is only necessary to take the case back to where there is no contact plus a very little.

For example these are some measurements taken on some factory ammo with the Stoney Point Headspace Gauge:

Caliber / Factory headspace / Typical crush fit headspace / Excess headspace factory ammo

300 win mag / 2.260" / 2.2725" / .0125"
264 win mag / 2.105" / 2.1385" / .0335"
30-06 / 2.039" / 2.0515" / .0125"

Now my point is that even on that 30-06 caliber there is no need to push the shoulder back .0125", that's too far and not necessary. Push it back .003" to .005" from a crush fit yes, but not back to factory dimensions.

If you had a measuring thingy, then you could figure this out!!

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
[...Got to disagree with taking it back to factory cartridge dimensions and feel like that is unnecessary and leads to case head separations. ...

I agree it will lead to Case Head Separations. And those cases should be used only 2-3 times at the most while watching for Insipient Case Head Separation with the "old, time-proven, never-fail" L-Shaped Chisel-Tipped Feeler Gauge. Then Trash those Cases when the Groove is noticed.

The only Dangerous things in my neck of the woods, are the occasional snake, rabid critters, wild hogs, mad cattle and free-roaming dogs. A few Black Bears, but so far they make a hasty retreat. So, I choose to P-FLR for my area, for a snug fit!
-----

By the way, just heard from a buddy yesterday who shot a Large Hog in the Lowcountry which was apparently over 500#. They didn't have a scale large enough to weigh it.

Maybe they could have measured it with a Thingy.

My son-in-law and I both have .257 Wby Magnums and we often shoot at the same time, next to each other at the range. I reload for both of us. It is hard to keep the cases separated. My neck sized cases will not chamber in his rifle, so I am full length sizing everything. (Oh, by the way, we're using 7mm Rem Mag cases necked down to .257, so the cost is reduced quite a bit.)

I have thought about trying to mark the case heads with a file to identify mine from his so I could neck size them all. I may need to follow through on that idea.

I mention this just so you'll know that neck sized ammo for one gun may not chamber in another rifle of that same caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:

I have thought about trying to mark the case heads with a file to identify mine from his so I could neck size them all. I may need to follow through on that idea.

Hey Red

I use an electric engraver and then fill the mark with magic marker.




I keep track of how many loads on a case that way.