I just bought some of the high priced norma brass, at 1$ a pop its spendy. I loaded up some and have been having trouble finding the accuracy I was looking for, I didn't notice the problem until I was loading a round that hung up a little on the roof of the action and would not feed, I opened the bolt and the bullet had pressed all the way into the case, after working up so more loads, I found a total lack of the right neck tension, I tried everything from using a lee collet neck sizer and finally back to my RCBS FL die, none of these dies would give the the right neck tension, I finally was stumpped and got out the calipers and sure enough that norma brass has a substiantially thinner neck, I am measureing a sold .002 minimum thinner neck on a loaded round. a switch back to the old beat up WW cases instantly got me back to the right neck tension, so in order to use these up I gotta get a bushing die?? I am pretty disappointed to say the least
in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC
Posts: 1755 | Location: slc Ut | Registered: 22 December 2002
Now that does suprise me... Shooting Weatherby/Norma factory stuff I've noticed the necks of spent rounds to be noticeably more substantial then they are on my Federal '06 rounds... I'll have to actually measure to see if it's just my eyes that are playing tricks on me...
Ken....
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " - Ronald Reagan
yeah I am thinking big time about getting a bushing die, the thing I don't like however is the bushings are $10 bucks a piece, I figure I need at least 4 different bushings, I guess I better do something because this high priced norma brass is useless at this point because the necks are too thin to be sized on either the Lee collet neck sizer or my standard FL dies.
in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC
Posts: 1755 | Location: slc Ut | Registered: 22 December 2002
I am having a similar problem with Norma .470 NE brass. I have ordered a new set of RCBS dies, thinking that my CH4D dies might be the problem. I will also caliper the Federal brass and compare it to the Norma.
Can someone explain to me what a bushing die is and how it works?
I would think that if someone owned CH dies and had a problem that they would call or email Dave Davidson, the owner of CH, and discuss it with him first. I know Dave personally and he's a very workable fellow. Wonder if the CH dies aren't at fault and you purchase RCBS dies? Then you're out of more money. I also believe I'd contact Norma too if the brass does prove to be thin.
I spoke to the proprietor of CH one time at length. I sent in a die made before he owned CH. He called me on his dime and talked about an hour. Based on what I learned he would not make a sizer die that is too large in the neck. Your Norma brass should be about .012 to .013 wall thickness. PM me if you would like. I have fired brass, reloads and factory loads at home I can measure.
Cowboy, I had a similar problem a few years back with some cheap brass I purchased for an upcoming PD shoot. The remington brass I had would size just fine but the cheap stuff would not size at all. After thinking about and asking questions some suggested that I anneal the brass and try again. I did and it worked.
Ain't sayin it will solve your problem just my experience.
arky65
people that trade freedom for security become slaves
Posts: 245 | Location: arkansas/louisiana | Registered: 31 March 2004
the neck wall thickness on the norma stuff is just thinner, I can see it visually, measureing loaded rounds and with the exact same bullets with winchester I am coming up with an average of .252, with the norma brass I am getting 2.48 or so. this is the measurement of the outside neck with a bullet in it. I just ordered a redding bushing die with .250 and .246 bushings, this should cure my problem I hope
MJ a standard die works by the die forming the neck smaller as it goes into the die, on the down stroke an expander ball pulls the neck back out to you hope proper dimensions, only probem is the action of the expander ball pulling back through the neck causes most of your brass stretching and makes you have to trim the brass alot more.
Bushing dies form the neck with a bushing and does not squeeze the neck down and pull it back out like a standard die does, I learned to load from my father in law he could never get a neck sized round to chamber in his gun reason being he was using RCBS expander ball neck dies which pull back out on the neck when the sizing is done. The lee collet neck sizer sounds like a good simple design I bought one, but it too is not working with this thin norma brass, I suspect my lee collet neck sizer would work great for sizeing normal neck wall thickness brass
in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC
Posts: 1755 | Location: slc Ut | Registered: 22 December 2002
In conjunction with cowboy's comment, the standard sizing die (either neck or full length) sizes the case neck and case body to the smallest industry standard (SAAMI) case deminsions so that the reloaded round will fit all factory chambers.
A bushing die (either neck or full length) is designed to have interchangeable "bushings" or neck sizing deminsions available to "custom fit" the case to a specific chamber. This means less "working" of the brass for longer life and a perfect fit to the chamber for better accuracy potential. When a round starts getting a little tighter to chamber a Body die can be use to just "bump" the shoulder and not resize to minimum industry standards.
Most manufacturers offer bushing die sets up to .338 caliber. Above this would be a custom die set.
Posts: 2627 | Location: Where the pine trees touch the sky | Registered: 06 December 2006
Originally posted by cummins cowboy: the neck wall thickness on the norma stuff is just thinner, I can see it visually, measureing loaded rounds and with the exact same bullets with winchester I am coming up with an average of .252, with the norma brass I am getting 2.48 or so. this is the measurement of the outside neck with a bullet in it. I just ordered a redding bushing die with .250 and .246 bushings, this should cure my problem I hope
Unless I read you statement wrong about bushing dies not pulling the neck back out, you're right and wrong. Redding bushing dies come with two expander balls. Well one isn't an expander ball at all, it's just the knurled nut to hold the decapping pin tight. So you can have it both ways with the Reddings..either expand the neck back out, or not. That's why I said you were right and wrong both.
Joe
MJ a standard die works by the die forming the neck smaller as it goes into the die, on the down stroke an expander ball pulls the neck back out to you hope proper dimensions, only probem is the action of the expander ball pulling back through the neck causes most of your brass stretching and makes you have to trim the brass alot more.
Bushing dies form the neck with a bushing and does not squeeze the neck down and pull it back out like a standard die does, I learned to load from my father in law he could never get a neck sized round to chamber in his gun reason being he was using RCBS expander ball neck dies which pull back out on the neck when the sizing is done. The lee collet neck sizer sounds like a good simple design I bought one, but it too is not working with this thin norma brass, I suspect my lee collet neck sizer would work great for sizeing normal neck wall thickness brass
Funny how we experience different things. I was having some Rem brass problems for the first time in 30 yrs recently and bought some Norma for a comparison. The NORMA is the nicest brass I have ever bought and I did not resize the necks because I could not find a singel ding. They load and shoot perfect for me.
Posts: 1159 | Location: Florida | Registered: 16 December 2004
Hey CC, If you remove the Expander and Resize a Case, does it have enough Tension then?
If it does, you can use a Universal Decapper.
Or perhaps you could extend the Expander down far enough to push out the Spent Primers without the Die touching the Case. Then remove the Expander and Resize the Cases.
Or, perhaps you could use the Expander from a "Smaller" Caliber in this Die. It would be there just to hold the Decapping Pin in place, but not Expand the Case Neck once you perform the Resizing.
Would any of those work for you?
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001
CC, I think I would call whoever I bought the brass from, and see if the neck thickness is within a reasonable tolerance. I have a lot of Norma brass, and thin necks have not been an issue. They certainly aren't thinner than other brass I have in same calibers.....
If you tell me what cal you're working, and I have some, I'll tell you what the necks on my Norma run in terms of thickness.
Good Luck--Don
Posts: 3563 | Location: GA, USA | Registered: 02 August 2004
CC, it's late, and this micrometer is not digital, but I think what I'm seeing is .01425--pretty consistent from about 15 cases. Interestingly, WW regular brass was really similar, just under .014, so it was thinner than my Norma, the Win NP stuff from factory stuff I'd fired was very close, looked to be right at .014, and Rem, from factory stuff I'd shot was almost identical, close as I could tell just a skoche thicker, around .0145 I'd say.
Hope this helps--Don
Posts: 3563 | Location: GA, USA | Registered: 02 August 2004
